Trivia: Fastest and slowest TOC on average

[najaB]

Time for another random trivia thread (quite possibly the most random yet!) This thread got me thinking - which is the fastest and which is the slowest TOC. By which I mean which TOC has the highest and lowest average speed across all their services?

At first glance it would seem that a long-distance TOC such as VTWC or VTEC would win for fastest - spending a lot of time cruising at 125mph, but which one? And they do spend time trundling around at the extreme ends of their networks. Would CS beat them since they have so few stops on the London to Scotland leg? Does Greater Anglia sneak in for the win?

As for slowest, a suburban TOC will take it, but who is slower overall - Mersey Rail, London Overground, Northern (mandatory dig)?

Answers on a postcard.

 

[bramling]

Time for another random trivia thread (quite possibly the most random yet!) This thread got me thinking - which is the fastest and which is the slowest TOC. By which I mean which TOC has the highest and lowest average speed across all their services?

At first glance it would seem that a long-distance TOC such as VTWC or VTEC would win for fastest - spending a lot of time cruising at 125mph, but which one? And they do spend time trundling around at the extreme ends of their networks. Would CS beat them since they have so few stops on the London to Scotland leg? Does Greater Anglia sneak in for the win?

As for slowest, a suburban TOC will take it, but who is slower overall - Mersey Rail, London Overground, Northern (mandatory dig)?

Answers on a postcard.

No science, but I would have thought west coast would be faster as, apart from Holyhead, most west coast trains are primarily on the main line, they don't have the slow runs to Aberdeen and Inverness.

Slowest must surely be London Overground.

Not sure how Heathrow Express could fit in.

 

[najaB]

No science, but I would have thought west coast would be faster as, apart from Holyhead, most west coast trains are primarily on the main line, they don't have the slow runs to Aberdeen and Inverness.

That was my thinking at first too, but the ECML is generally faster than the WCML and Edinburgh to Aberdeen isn't the slowest of routes (there's some stretches of 100mph) and it's only one service a day to Inverness. That could balance things back in VTECs favour.

 

[bengley]

I seem to remember c2c having an average speed of something between 30 and 40mph, which is rather slow.

London Overground must be the slowest.

 

[bramling]

That was my thinking at first too, but the ECML is generally faster than the WCML and Edinburgh to Aberdeen isn't the slowest of routes (there's some stretches of 100mph) and it's only one service a day to Inverness. That could balance things back in VTECs favour.

Yes very true, when thinking of the Aberdeen run one tends to think of the slow bits like Inverkeithing to Kirkcaldy, Tay Bridge, etc, and forget about the faster bits. East Coast is quite slow though once one gets north of about Darlo..

 

[Hadders]

Grand Central or Hull Trains might be contenders for the fastest.

 

[Liam]

Island Line might have been a contender for slowest when it was a stand alone TOC.

 

[najaB]

I'm excluding Eurostar from consideration for this one, before anyone suggests them.

 

[gsnedders]

I'm excluding Eurostar from consideration for this one, before anyone suggests them.

How does Southeastern do? I presume they're still going to be quite a way down given the number of metro services they run, compared with how little they run over 90mph (their mainlines except HS1 are all 90mph, no? why do I even have that in my head when I've literally never been on any).

 

[sjoh]

This might actually be possible to work out if one had access to the VTEC and VTWC diagram sheets... I believe they list the average speed of each run per unit? Or at least, I recall seeing a draft GWR sheet that did, so I'm assuming the two virgins do the same...

 

[Iskra]

Grand Central or Hull Trains might be contenders for the fastest.

Bradford-Doncaster must really drag GC down, it's a glacial pace with long dwells in places. I don't think York-Sunderland is exactly break neck speed either with stops at Thirsk and Northallerton on the fastest bit of that journey.

I would think VTWC are the fastest TOC overall.

 

[cle]

Being a bit of a smart arse...would Heathrow Express count?

 

[A Challenge]

What about CrossCountry?

 

[AlterEgo]

What about CrossCountry?

They wouldn't come close to either extreme; lots of slow running down in the South West and in Scotland, plus all the Turbostar routes which aren't that fast.

 

[AM9]

Time for another random trivia thread (quite possibly the most random yet!) This thread got me thinking - which is the fastest and which is the slowest TOC. By which I mean which TOC has the highest and lowest average speed across all their services?

At first glance it would seem that a long-distance TOC such as VTWC or VTEC would win for fastest - spending a lot of time cruising at 125mph, but which one? And they do spend time trundling around at the extreme ends of their networks. Would CS beat them since they have so few stops on the London to Scotland leg? Does Greater Anglia sneak in for the win?

As for slowest, a suburban TOC will take it, but who is slower overall - Mersey Rail, London Overground, Northern (mandatory dig)?

Answers on a postcard.

Although it is only a trivia question, maybe all dwells should be included which would slightly disadvantage the long distance routes with their 20-30 minute turnrounds, but many commuter lines are scheduled to get underway in five minutes. A way to do this would be to look at the total distance travelled per diagram (less ecs) and the time between the first stop for passenger pick-up to the last stop to drop passengers off, thereby leaving ECS runs out.

 

[47271]

Bradford-Doncaster must really drag GC down, it's a glacial pace with long dwells in places. I don't think York-Sunderland is exactly break neck speed either with stops at Thirsk and Northallerton on the fastest bit of that journey.

I would think VTWC are the fastest TOC overall.

Northallerton to Hartlepool is slow. Hartlepool to Sunderland is really slow.

 

[Bromley boy]

How does Southeastern do? I presume they're still going to be quite a way down given the number of metro services they run, compared with how little they run over 90mph (their mainlines except HS1 are all 90mph, no? why do I even have that in my head when I've literally never been on any).

The Chatham mainline is max 90. The South Eastern Mainline has stretches of 100 (Ashford - Tonbridge and some other odd bits) but this isn't reached often due to the frequency of stops, even for the mainline services.

Southeastern will certainly have the highest max speed of any TOC (excluding Eurostar) with Javelins running at 140mph on HS1, but the overall average will he brought down by the metro routes as you say.

My votes: Fastest, (excluding Eurostar) VTEC; slowest, London Overground.

 

[jonny5532]

[Edited 09/09/2017 to add new more-accurate calculations]

I've been playing with timetable data recently, so If my programming is right (unlikely) I can spoil the fun with some facts:

Average speeds of passenger services:

86mph VTEC (mileage coverage: 100%)
85mph Hull Trains (mileage coverage: 100%)
80mph Grand Central (mileage coverage: 97%)
72mph Chiltern (mileage coverage: 95%)
70mph VTWC (mileage coverage: 100%)
64mph CrossCountry (mileage coverage: 99%)
60mph Caledonian Sleeper (mileage coverage: 100%)
57mph TransPennine Express (mileage coverage: 100%)
57mph Gatwick Express (mileage coverage: 100%)
56mph East Midlands Trains (mileage coverage: 100%)
50mph GWR (mileage coverage: 99%)
50mph GTR (Great Northern) (mileage coverage: 99%)
49mph Greater Anglia (mileage coverage: 95%)
47mph Heathrow Express (mileage coverage: 100%)
46mph ARRIVA Trains Wales (mileage coverage: 97%)
45mph London Midland (mileage coverage: 98%)
44mph ScotRail (mileage coverage: 98%)
43mph South Western Railway (mileage coverage: 98%)
42mph c2c (mileage coverage: 100%)
42mph GTR (Thameslink) (mileage coverage: 100%)
39mph Southeastern (mileage coverage: 99%)
38mph Northern (mileage coverage: 97%)
37mph Southern (mileage coverage: 99%)
35mph Heathrow Connect (mileage coverage: 100%)
32mph TfL Rail (mileage coverage: 100%)
31mph London Overground (mileage coverage: 74%)
29mph Merseyrail (mileage coverage: 88%)
27mph Island Line (mileage coverage: 100%)

This is dependent on some rather unreliable mileage data, and me understanding the ATOC timetable data correctly, so take with a pinch of salt! The speeds are most likely overestimates, and the 'mileage coverage' indicates the proportion of train-moving time for which mileage data was found.

(It adds the cumulative mileages and arr-dep times for every adjacent pair of stations on every current passenger service in the timetable, multiplies by the number of days run, and calculates average speed by operator).

 

[najaB]

I'm surprised that Cross Country is as high up the list as it is.

 

[jonny5532]

I think I have jumped the gun somewhat, I've found rather a few glaring errors (such as the Caledonian Sleeper not including the fairly relevant Euston->Edinburgh section). The table above might better be summarised as an average of a random selection of route segments for each operator.

I'll see if I can manage something a bit more close to reality.

 

[jonny5532]

I fixed the glaring errors (and discovered that accurately calculating mileages is no simple task!) but the results (in the edited original post) are now much closer to reality.

 

[D365]

VTEC was my prediction for fastest before opening this discussion - not bad

Wonder why VTWC is lower than Chiltern though. Since HS2 operation is to be included in the next franchise, I expect it might even top a future list.

 

[Bromley boy]

Interesting.

Most figures are roughly in line with predictions - I'm surprised GATEX is quicker than HEX - I guess a large % of HEX is in the Heathrow tunnels which offsets the 100mph sprint from PAD.

 

[paul1609]

How does Southeastern do? I presume they're still going to be quite a way down given the number of metro services they run, compared with how little they run over 90mph (their mainlines except HS1 are all 90mph, no? why do I even have that in my head when I've literally never been on any).

No theres substantial stretches of the classic dc main line from South of Sevenoaks down as far as the Channel Tunnel which are EMU 100, because of the enhanced dc supply originally for the channel tunnel services it also has lively performance by DC standards.

 

[Bromley boy]

No theres substantial stretches of the classic dc main line from South of Sevenoaks down as far as the Channel Tunnel which are EMU 100, because of the enhanced dc supply originally for the channel tunnel services it also has lively performance by DC standards.

This is true, but when the HS1 link opened a lot of SE mainline services were substantially slowed down due to additional stops being diagrammed - largely to make the HS1 route look more attractive and justify the premium.

Most now stop at all stations between Ashford and Tonbridge and will struggle to reach 100mph (the ones diagrammed to skip Pluckley have a better chance).

The stretch between Sevenoakes and Tonbridge (down direction only) and the section between Ashford and Folkestone are the only sections where 100 is regularly attained in passenger service.

 

[AM9]

... The stretch between Sevenoakes and Tonbridge (down direction only) and the section between Ashford and Folkestone are the only sections where 100 is regularly attained in passenger service.

Presumably the latter is courtesy of the class 395 service.

 

[Bromley boy]

Presumably the latter is courtesy of the class 395 service.

375s (and the occasional 465*) run down that way as well. It's parallel to the HS1 section leading to the tunnel portal.

*75mph max

 

[AM9]

375s (and the occasional 465*) run down that way as well. It's parallel to the HS1 section leading to the tunnel portal.

*75mph max

The 395s all run non-stop. Which trains serve the intermediate stations Westenhanger and Sandling?

 

[Bromley boy]

The 395s all run non-stop. Which trains serve the intermediate stations Westenhanger and Sandling?

The Dover Priory/Folkestone Central services call at those stations, I believe. These will be 375s and occasionally 465/9s.

 

[paul1609]

This is true, but when the HS1 link opened a lot of SE mainline services were substantially slowed down due to additional stops being diagrammed - largely to make the HS1 route look more attractive and justify the premium.

Most now stop at all stations between Ashford and Tonbridge and will struggle to reach 100mph (the ones diagrammed to skip Pluckley have a better chance).

The stretch between Sevenoakes and Tonbridge (down direction only) and the section between Ashford and Folkestone are the only sections where 100 is regularly attained in passenger service.

As a regular user of the line, the reason that the services now call at all stations is that the intermediate stations post HS1 provide by far the majority of the passengers. The average classic line service leaving Ashford has very few passengers even in the morning peaks whilst the platforms at places like Staplehurst and Paddock Wood are crammed. The majority of London traffic transferred to HS1. Prior to HS1 the car park at Headcorn used to regularly be full but nowadays it is a busy day when its half full. it was a railhead for a large area of South west but many people now park at Ashford which has ample parking for the HS1 services.