Trivia: Counties served only by electric trains

[alangla]

With the Stranraer trains diverted via Kilmarnock, I reckon North Ayrshire, Inverclyde, Renfrewshire and Clackmannanshire are the Scottish local authorities with no diesel services. The county of Renfrewshire would have counted, I think, if it hadn’t been for Barrhead in East Renfrewshire.

 

[MadMac]

West Lothian. Only served by Glasgow-to-Edinburgh trains (via all 4.5 available routes) and all of them are electrified. The only non-electrified E-G services are the CrossCountry ones and they only call at Motherwell.

Also East Dunbartonshire, served by E&G and North Clyde electrics. And North Lanarkshire, and Inverclyde, and North Ayrshire. There are quite large chunks of the Central Belt with only electric passenger services now that EGIP is done.

Isn't there a late-night “all shacks via Carstairs” Edinburgh-Motherwell DMU? That would eliminate North Lanarkshire.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

So I guess the answer is that there aren't any in England aside from Isle of Wight?

Maybe dividing by Local authorities (upper tier or unitary authority) may give an answer.

I agree we can think about upper tier or unitary authorities though on a personal note my understanding of their boundaries is much less good.

 

[THC]

All 'unitary authorities' (save the Berkshire 6) are counties. IoW also a separate Ceremonial County (the ones created in the 1990s after they realised what a mess they were making) to Hampshire.

This is not the case at all. Bedfordshire is one ceremonial county made up of three unitary authorities. Derby City is a unitary within the Derbyshire ceremonial county, as is Nottingham City within Nottinghamshire. There are many other examples of unitaries that are not in and of themselves counties. Even the most recent unitaries in Dorset do not follow the single county authority model.

Out of interest, what are you trying to say in your second sentence? Not clear what "mess" you are referring to.

THC

 

[30907]

i can’t think of any non-electrics in Essex.....

Sudbury branch (only Sudbury itself is in Suffolk), plus IIRC one or two Ipswich-Colchesters and two Ipswich-Parkestons (extensions of other services).

 

[causton]

Sudbury branch (only Sudbury itself is in Suffolk), plus IIRC one or two Ipswich-Colchesters and two Ipswich-Parkestons (extensions of other services).

And as previously posted in the thread, CrossCountry from Stansted to Birmingham.

 

[scotrail158713]

Isn't there a late-night “all shacks via Carstairs” Edinburgh-Motherwell DMU? That would eliminate North Lanarkshire.

Yep. According to RTT it’s 1D63 23:13 Edinburgh to Motherwell, operated by a 158 or 170.

 

[Captain Bigwig]

I believe the City of London (which is a ceremonial county in its own right) is only served by electric trains. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that.)

 

[InOban]

West Lothian. Only served by Glasgow-to-Edinburgh trains (via all 4.5 available routes) and all of them are electrified. The only non-electrified E-G services are the CrossCountry ones and they only call at Motherwell.

Also East Dunbartonshire, served by E&G and North Clyde electrics. And North Lanarkshire, and Inverclyde, and North Ayrshire. There are quite large chunks of the Central Belt with only electric passenger services now that EGIP is done.

There's one daily dmu on the Shotts route, essentially to rotate a158 to and from maintenance in Glasgow. And do none of the peak dmus between Perth and Queen Street stop after Stirling?
And I've just remembered the daily M-F Fife to Queen Street.

 

[scotrail158713]

I believe the City of London (which is a ceremonial county in its own right) is only served by electric trains. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that.)

If none of the long distance termini (Paddington, KX, Euston etc) fall in the county then I think you may be right

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If none of the long distance termini (Paddington, KX, Euston etc) fall in the county then I think you may be right

Liverpool Street, Moorgate and Fenchurch Street are all in The City I think, but they're all electric.

No takers for my suggestion of Suffolk once all local services are run by 755s then?

 

[si404]

You guess wrong!

Is there no token Lowestoft or via Bury St Edmunds train currently (ignoring COVID-19)? Or are they hybrid now?

OK, City of London joins the Isle of Wight to make a total of 2 English Ceremonial counties.

Ceremonial counties please.

Which translates so that Wales would be Preserved Counties, and Scotland Lieutenancy Areas (because that's what are commonly called 'ceremonial counties' are). Obviously Kirkcudbrightshire won't count (not having a single rail station), but to be consistent, that's the sort of thing we are dealing with in Scotland.

This is not the case at all. Bedfordshire is one ceremonial county made up of three unitary authorities. Derby City is a unitary within the Derbyshire ceremonial county, as is Nottingham City within Nottinghamshire.

Nothing you say there is wrong, except for the first sentence: it is absolutely the case that UA's are counties. There's 2 sorts of counties (ignoring the whole 'does Middlesex still exist' debate) that exist in law - ones for the purpose of local government and ones for the purpose of lieutenancy. That you have qualified 'county' with 'ceremonial' here is making my point for me!

All unitary authorities (a term that doesn't exist in law), save the 6 of Berkshire, are non-metropolitan counties (coterminous with non-metropolitan districts) under the Local Government Act of 1972, typically with the caveat that they are excluded from the part of the act that requires every county to have a council (as most unitary authorities are run by district councils - including Buckinghamshire which, at the beginning of the month, saw all its district councils and county council abolished, old districts abolished, a new district created covering the same area as the county, and then the district council of that new district becoming the unitary's council).

So for the first example you talk of, of Bedfordshire:
The Bedfordshire (Borough of Luton) (Structural Change) Order 1995 says

8.—(1) Luton shall cease to form part of Bedfordshire.
(2) A new county shall be constituted comprising the area of Luton and shall be named the county of Luton.
(3) Section 2(1) of the 1972 Act (which provides that every county shall have a council) shall not apply in relation to the county of Luton.

and The Bedfordshire (Structural Changes) Order 2008 says

3.—(1) A new non-metropolitan county, to be known as Bedford, shall be constituted comprising the area of the borough of Bedford.
(2) In relation to the county of Bedford, section 2(1) of the 1972 Act (which provides that every county shall have a council) shall not apply.
(3) On and after 1st April 2009, Bedford Borough Council shall be the sole principal authority for Bedford.
4.—(1) A new non-metropolitan county and a new non-metropolitan district, each to be known as Central Bedfordshire, shall be constituted comprising (in each case) the areas of the districts of Mid Bedfordshire and South Bedfordshire.
(2) In relation to the county of Central Bedfordshire, section 2(1) of the 1972 Act (which provides that every county shall have a council) shall not apply.
(3) A new district council, to be known as the Central Bedfordshire Council, shall be established as the sole principal authority for the non-metropolitan district of Central Bedfordshire.

Derby and Nottingham follow the same formula:

8.—(1) Derby shall cease to form part of Derbyshire.
(2) A new county shall be constituted comprising the area of Derby and shall be named the county of Derby.
(3) Section 2(1) of the 1972 Act (which provides that every county shall have a council) shall not apply in relation to the county of Derby.

6.—(1) Nottingham shall cease to form part of Nottinghamshire.
(2) A new county shall be constituted comprising the area of Nottingham and shall be named the county of Nottingham.
(3) Section 2(1) of the 1972 Act (which provides that every county shall have a council) shall not apply in relation to the county of Nottingham.

I don't think I need to go on and deal with the many other examples, but I'll highlight Dorset, as perhaps the most interesting - it creates two new counties (Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole, and Dorset - neither of which have councils), and abolishes three old ones (Bournemouth, Poole, and Dorset), as well as doing stuff with districts/boroughs. Yes, a county of Dorset is abolished and another created - see what I mean about mess! But more relevantly, even when abolishing them, it refers to the UAs of Bournemouth and Poole as "the county and borough of".

Spoiler: Big lump of legal text

PART 2
ESTABLISHMENT OF SINGLE TIER LOCAL GOVERNMENT IN BOURNEMOUTH, CHRISTCHURCH AND POOLE
Single tier local government in Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole
3.—(1) A new non-metropolitan county and a new non-metropolitan district, each to be known as Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole, are constituted comprising (in each case) the areas of the districts of Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole.

(2) In relation to the county of Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole, section 2(1) of the 1972 Act (which provides that every county shall have a council) does not apply.

(3) A new district council, to be known as Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole Council, is established as the sole principal authority for the non-metropolitan district of Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole.

(4) Except for the purposes of Part 5 of this Order (electoral matters: Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole Council), until 1st April 2019—

(a)Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole Council is not a local authority for the purposes of the 1972 Act or for any other enactment relating to local government; and
(b)subsection (2) of section 2 of the 1972 Act (constitution of principal councils in England) has effect in relation to that council, as if the words from “and the council” to the end of that subsection were omitted.
County and Borough of Bournemouth, Bournemouth Borough Council and councillors of that Council
4.—(1) On 1st April 2019—

(a)the county and borough of Bournemouth are abolished as local government areas; and
(b)Bournemouth Borough Council is wound up and dissolved.
(2) The term of office of persons serving as councillors of the Borough Council immediately before 1st April 2019 ends on that date.

(3) Nothing in section 89 of the 1972 Act (filling of casual vacancies in case of councillors) authorises the holding of an election to fill a casual vacancy in the office of councillor of the Borough Council where that vacancy arises after 30th September 2018 and before 1st April 2019.

County and Borough of Poole, Poole Borough Council and councillors of that Council
5.—(1) On 1st April 2019—

(a)the county and borough of Poole are abolished as local government areas; and
(b)Poole Borough Council is wound up and dissolved.
(2) The term of office of persons serving as councillors of the Borough Council immediately before 1st April 2019 ends on that date.

(3) Nothing in section 89 of the 1972 Act (filling of casual vacancies in case of councillors) authorises the holding of an election to fill a casual vacancy in the office of councillor of the Borough Council where that vacancy arises after 30th September 2018 and before 1st April 2019.

Borough of Christchurch, Christchurch Borough Council and councillors of that Council
6.—(1) On 1st April 2019—

(a)the borough of Christchurch is abolished as a local government area; and
(b)Christchurch Borough Council is wound up and dissolved.
(2) The term of office of persons serving as councillors of the Borough Council immediately before 1st April 2019 ends on that date.

(3) Nothing in section 89 of the 1972 Act (filling of casual vacancies in case of councillors) authorises the holding of an election to fill a casual vacancy in the office of councillor of the Borough Council where that vacancy arises after 30th September 2018 and before 1st April 2019.

PART 3
ESTABLISHMENT OF SINGLE TIER LOCAL GOVERNMENT IN DORSET
Single tier local government in Dorset
7.—(1) A new non-metropolitan county and a new non-metropolitan district, each to be known as Dorset, are constituted comprising (in each case) the areas of the districts of East Dorset, North Dorset, Purbeck, West Dorset and the borough of Weymouth and Portland.

(2) In relation to Dorset section 2(1) of the 1972 Act (which provides that every county shall have a council) does not apply.

(3) A new district council, to be known as Dorset Council, is established as the sole principal authority for the non-metropolitan district of Dorset.

(4) Except for the purposes of Part 7 of this Order (electoral matters: Dorset), until 1st April 2019—

(a)Dorset Council is not a local authority for the purposes of the 1972 Act or for any other enactment relating to local government; and
(b)subsection (2) of section 2 of the 1972 Act (constitution of principal councils in England) has effect in relation to that council, as if the words from “and the council” to the end of that subsection were omitted.
County of Dorset, Dorset County Council and councillors of that Council
8.—(1) On 1st April 2019—

(a)the county of Dorset is abolished as a local government area; and
(b)the County Council is wound up and dissolved.
(2) The term of office of persons serving as councillors of the County Council immediately before 1st April 2019 ends on that date.

(3) Nothing in section 89 of the 1972 Act (filling of casual vacancies in case of councillors) authorises the holding of an election to fill a casual vacancy in the office of councillor of the County Council where that vacancy arises after 30th September 2018 and before 1st April 2019.

Abolition of districts and winding up of district councils
9.—(1) On 1st April 2019—

(a)the East Dorset, North Dorset, Purbeck and West Dorset districts and the borough of Weymouth and Portland are abolished as local government areas; and
(b)the East Dorset, North Dorset, Purbeck, West Dorset District Councils and the Weymouth and Portland Borough Council (“the District Councils”) are wound up and dissolved.
(2) The term of office of persons serving as councillors of the District Councils immediately before 1st April 2019 ends on that date.

(3) Nothing in section 89 of the 1972 Act (filling of casual vacancies in case of councillors) authorises the holding of an election to fill a casual vacancy in the office of councillor of any of the District Councils where that vacancy arises after 30th September 2018 and before 1st April 2019.

The Lieutenancies Act 1997 (creating what we call ceremonial counties) is about dealing with the problem that early 1990s local government reforms - ie the creation of unitary authorities - had made a mess of what a county is (and continue to be done the same way) and so recreated the 1974 counties (well most of them. Avon replaced by Bristol, Humberside by the East Riding of Yorkshire (including Hull as well as the UA of the same name), Cleveland, and Hereford and Worcester abolished, Rutland, Herefordshire, and Worcestershire created) so as to avoid weirdness where Derby wasn't in Derbyshire, etc.

"The counties in England for the purposes of this Act are—
(a)Greater London (excluding the City of London);
(b)the areas which are to be regarded as counties for those purposes by virtue of paragraph 3; and
(c)any other areas in England which are counties for the purposes of the Local Government Act 1972."

With paragraph 3 grouping together non-metropolitan counties in places where unitary authorities have been formed. (b) comes before (c) because all the places grouped together under paragraph 3 qualify for (c).

The Welsh bit is really explicit as to what's going on with the whole Act:
"The counties in Wales for the purposes of this Act are the preserved counties, that is to say, the counties in Wales as they stood immediately before the passing of the Local Government (Wales) Act 1994 (but subject to any redrawing of their boundaries by or under that Act or the Local Government Act 1972)."

And Scotland is a bit weird with the Queen making Orders in Council to create them.

 

[PHILIPE]

West Lothian. Only served by Glasgow-to-Edinburgh trains (via all 4.5 available routes) and all of them are electrified. The only non-electrified E-G services are the CrossCountry ones and they only call at Motherwell.

Also East Dunbartonshire, served by E&G and North Clyde electrics. And North Lanarkshire, and Inverclyde, and North Ayrshire. There are quite large chunks of the Central Belt with only electric passenger services now that EGIP is done.

1733 Glasgow Queen St to Markinch calls at Bishopbriggs in East Dunbartonshire. This Fife service has already been mentioned in another post relating to another location.

 

[Scotrail12]

I'm pretty sure that my county, North Lanarkshire, is EMU only as of fairly recently, unless any of the CrossCountry trains through Motherwell count. Inverclyde also EMU only, as is North Ayrshire.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Thanks for the detail. Everyone do remember it’s a trivia thread, and while I love a good bit of law let’s all keep being nice.
Keep and thanks being two important words.

 

[si404]

Given we're very much not doing lieutenancy areas, but local government areas, in Scotland, can we do the same in England?

Otherwise we've exhausted the question as there's so few. I'd expand 'county' to be any top tier local government (so metropolitan boroughs, and the 6 Berkshire authorities count as well as UAs) to make it more interesting.

 

[Chris Hamilton]

I'm pretty sure that my county, North Lanarkshire, is EMU only as of fairly recently, unless any of the CrossCountry trains through Motherwell count. Inverclyde also EMU only, as is North Ayrshire.

In North Lanarkshire, not only are there the diesels operated by CrossCountry, Avanti and TPE (granted the last two are pretty sparse being mostly electrics), there’s also the late night and early morning 158 to/from Edinburgh as well as one evening run along the Shotts line by 158.

Also, Croy is in North Lanarkshire, and there is still some Perth services still calling there.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Although there will still be diesel trains stopping in the county (0641 Northampton Euston, and at Kettering until the MML electrification re-commences) once Corby is electrified Northamptonshire will have a high proportion of its lines electrified. The pre-1974 county also included the Soke of Peterborough but not, as far as I can make out, Kings Sutton. There's just the Manton line beyond Corby and North of Glendon (to Mkt Harboro' might be done after Corby)

 

[AM9]

I believe the City of London (which is a ceremonial county in its own right) is only served by electric trains. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that.)

Oh dear, wait for the 'typical for London to get all the money spent on it whilst we underprivileged in (insert impoverished non-London county) have to put up with 30+ year-old 2-car pacers/sprinters.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Although there will still be diesel trains stopping in the county (0641 Northampton Euston, and at Kettering until the MML electrification re-commences) once Corby is electrified Northamptonshire will have a high proportion of its lines electrified. The pre-1974 county also included the Soke of Peterborough but not, as far as I can make out, Kings Sutton. There's just the Manton line beyond Corby and North of Glendon (to Mkt Harboro' might be done after Corby)

But all the other trains stopping at Kettering (en route to/from Leicester and further north) will still be diesel.

 

[Merle Haggard]

But all the other trains stopping at Kettering (en route to/from Leicester and further north) will still be diesel.

Sorry, must have been ambiguous - the contents of the brackets refers to the diesel trains running after Corby goes all-electric. But one hopes that electrification Northwards will continue, as possibly promised in a recent Government statement. My reference was intended to be to lines electrified.

 

[flitwickbeds]

My reference was intended to be to lines electrified.

The OP states:

Are there any counties where all the stations are normally only served by electric trains?

(My emphasis)

 

[Cricketer8for9]

But, it being a trivia thread the OP can change the rules. Go ahead with Lord Lieutenantcy counties.

 

[paul1609]

West Sussex has the GWR Bristol to Brighton trains, which are not electric.

Gatwick Airport station is in West Sussex so also disqualified by the North Downs Line trains from Reading.

 

[paul1609]

The Marsh Link service from Ashford. Runs to Rye, Hastings and Eastbourne (Plus other stops in between)

Uckfield to Oxted too.

Ashford International, Ham Street and Appledore (Kent) are in Kent on Marshlink, Edenbridge Town, Hever, Cowden and Ashurst (Kent) on the Uckfield line.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

i can’t think of any non-electrics in Essex.....

The Sudbury branch from Marks Tey

Worked by Class 153's from memory but not sure if the new Stadler trains work it now

 

[Kite159]

The Sudbury branch from Marks Tey

Worked by Class 153's from memory but not sure if the new Stadler trains work it now

Greater Anglia Rural routes are all run by the Stadlers, as the last of the sprinters departed in February time

 

[Esker-pades]

West Lothian. Only served by Glasgow-to-Edinburgh trains (via all 4.5 available routes) and all of them are electrified. The only non-electrified E-G services are the CrossCountry ones and they only call at Motherwell.

Also East Dunbartonshire, served by E&G and North Clyde electrics. And North Lanarkshire, and Inverclyde, and North Ayrshire. There are quite large chunks of the Central Belt with only electric passenger services now that EGIP is done.

For West Lothian, as well as the services mentioned by @BigB , there's a service from Motherwell to Edinburgh which runs via Shotts that goes on to form a Tweedbank service. It'll be a 158/170.

East Dunbartonshire is also affected by the Glasgow-Fife peak services (they serve Bishopbriggs in the eastbound direction), as is North Lanarkshire (Cumbernauld is served in the westbound direction). Motherwell is in North Lanarkshire, which means the XC services you mentioned apply there.

 

[Bringback309s]

When did the city of London last see a scheduled diesel service? I guess the last 47s to Norwich and Ely / Kings Lynn. Before that the DMU's and 31's on the widened lines to Moorgate, and Herts into Broad Street

 

[D365]

I believe the City of London (which is a ceremonial county in its own right) is only served by electric trains. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that.)

If ceremonial counties are accepted, I'll nominate Huntingdonshire (which I don't think includes Peterborough).