Triple split ticket query.

[pokemonsuper9]

I just want to confirm that my thinking is right here:

If I buy a West Yorkshire Daysaver Train, a Greater Manchester Rail Ranger, and a Littlebrough-Walsden Duo, we would be able to take a train that does not stop at both Littlebrough and Walsden (e.g. the Leeds-Wigan going non-stop between Hebden Bridge and Manchester) based on section 14.3 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (extract below), even when that would allow for travelling non-stop between two stations using three different tickets.

14. Using a Combination of Tickets​

14.3 Unless Condition 14.1 applies, if you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or
another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger, or rover, in
conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the
first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to
Call at that station for your combination to be valid.

Are there even any tickets that would fit the criteria of 14.1 offered by the TOCs as part of the NRCOT? Would that make them two different journies in terms of delay repay, being stranded and missing advanced specifc trains?

14.1 Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets

And finally, is https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf the most up to date version of the National Rail Conditions of Travel avaliable on the internet? It says 6th February 2022 on page 1 and 28th May 2023 on page 29, but I could imagine they've just not updated it for SWR or c2c's new names yet.

 

[CyrusWuff]

And finally, is https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf the most up to date version of the National Rail Conditions of Travel avaliable on the internet? It says 6th February 2022 on page 1 and 28th May 2023 on page 29, but I could imagine they've just not updated it for SWR or c2c's new names yet.

The latest version is available at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/your-rights-and-obligations-as-a-passenger/ (https://nre.co.uk/nrcot for short) and is dated 2nd April 2024. It's not generally updated if it's just a change of operator, though Schedule 1 to the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement (found at https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/o...l/rdg-accreditation/ticketing-settlement.html) usually is. The latest version of the TSA was produced just before c2c was renationalised, but has been updated to reflect SWR's change of status.

 

[jamiearmley]

Yeah that's valid. Show all 3 tickets on the first inspection however, please don't be one of these that waits to show the next ticket until you reach the split point. The number of times I've waited for someone to get off, based on their ticket, when they are actually traveling further, is becoming frustrating to say the least.
Enjoy your journey!

 

[A S Leib]

The number of times I've waited for someone to get off, based on their ticket, when they are actually traveling further, is becoming frustrating to say the least.

I know that there are guards who will be proactive, but there's also been times where I've said that I have further tickets without having any interest in checking them.

 

[jamiearmley]

I know that there are guards who will be proactive, but there's also been times where I've said that I have further tickets without having any interest in checking them.

Just always offer them is my advice.
It's easy, if your proactive, to have a rough idea of where everyone is going on a little 2-car DMU. It's part of the duty of care to ensure passengers get to their destination - and to help avoid them missing their stop. Help us to help you, if you will.

 

[Watershed]

I just want to confirm that my thinking is right here:

If I buy a West Yorkshire Daysaver Train, a Greater Manchester Rail Ranger, and a Littlebrough-Walsden Duo, we would be able to take a train that does not stop at both Littlebrough and Walsden (e.g. the Leeds-Wigan going non-stop between Hebden Bridge and Manchester) based on section 14.3 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (extract below), even when that would allow for travelling non-stop between two stations using three different tickets.

My interpretation is that non-stop splits are only allowed with a maximum of 2 tickets under the NRCoT due to the wording of condition 14.3:

if you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger, or rover, in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the
first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same

None of these terms are pluralised, hence my above conclusion; remember that 14.3 is an exception to the default principle that you must stop at your split station (under 14.2).

Now yes, it doesn't explicitly state that you can't combine more than 2 tickets for a non-stop split, but it's quite a different set of wording to what the old Conditions of Carriage said:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
...
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not

That clearly envisages that more than 2 tickets can be used when undertaking non-stop splits.

Are there even any tickets that would fit the criteria of 14.1 offered by the TOCs as part of the NRCOT?

Yes, West Yorkshire PTE products purport to have such a restriction preventing non-stop splits on 'intercity' operators (LNER, XC, EMR), but it's not actually mentioned in the terms and conditions so it wouldn't be enforceable. See more discussion on this thread.

Would that make them two different journies in terms of delay repay, being stranded and missing advanced specifc trains?

If they complely excluded all splits, then yes. However even WYPTE only try to exclude non-stop splits, so stopping splits are still permitted.

And finally, is https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf the most up to date version of the National Rail Conditions of Travel avaliable on the internet? It says 6th February 2022 on page 1 and 28th May 2023 on page 29, but I could imagine they've just not updated it for SWR or c2c's new names yet.

@CyrusWuff has very ably answered that

 

[pokemonsuper9]

My interpretation is that non-stop splits are only allowed with a maximum of 2 tickets under the NRCoT due to the wording of condition 14.3:

None of these terms are pluralised, hence my above conclusion; remember that 14.3 is an exception to the default principle that you must stop at your split station (under 14.2).

Now yes, it doesn't explicitly state that you can't combine more than 2 tickets for a non-stop split, but it's quite a different set of wording to what the old Conditions of Carriage said:

Yes, that's what I was worried about.

Looking at it now, it might just be better to only do 1 14.3 split by buying a Littlebrough - Hebden Bridge duo instead, it's just £2.40 more and that will avoid any options for double 14.3s since everything is stopping at Hebden Bridge.

 

[Watershed]

I think that would be a safer option.

It does feel ludicrous having to buy an extra ticket to cover you for the "gap" between tickets respectively valid across Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire, when you're in either of those counties at all times. If only we did integrated ticketing properly in this country...

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I think that would be a safer option.

It does feel ludicrous having to buy an extra ticket to cover you for the "gap" between tickets respectively valid across Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire, when you're in either of those counties at all times. If only we did integrated ticketing properly in this country...

Although, if they were valid outside of their borders, would that not mess with 14.3 again, since the stops validity start and end aren't the same.

14.3 Unless Condition 14.1 applies, if you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger, or rover, in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to Call at that station for your combination to be valid.

It's still a giant saving, even with a £9.10 gap jumper, so I'm not that annoyed about it.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Trip report;
Went to Manchester Victoria
Stood around for 2.5 hours
Now giving up and going home

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Update: finally made it home

 

[Forty29]

I brought a ticket off trip.com between Reading and Axminster and came in split ticket form. The last part of it was called an evening out single, never heard of that before .