Trip to Portugal

[MarcVD]

Wife and I plan to spend 2 weeks vacation in Northern Portugal end of September.

As bonus, I consider doing the trip from Belgium to Porto by train.
My experience with Spanish and Portuguese trains being minimal, I would appreciate any help I could get.

Conditions of travel are the following:
1) no night trains. You don'tget to see anything.
2) Hotel stopovers en route are fine, even if 3 or 4 are needed.
3) no high speed trains, unless absolutely necessary.
4) interrail if possible

I have started looking at Bahn.de but it seems they don't have Spanish schedules for end September yet.

I have seen a very tempting proposal to join Bordeaux from Brussels by using 3 trains :
- ouigo train classique from Brussels Midi to Paris Nord
- ouigo train classique from Paris Nord to Nantes
- SNCF IC train from Nantes to Bordeaux.
Interesting but no interrail validity on the two first trains.

I also saw that on certain days, RENFE runs a train from Barcelona to A Coruna. Looks quite tempting, but is this train still running end of September ? Interrail validity ? Can I catch it somewhere from Irun or do I need to take it from Barcelona ? if yes, can I do Bordeaux to Barcelona in one day ? Via Toulouse and Puigcerda ?

Bahn.de shows no train between Hendaye and Irun. Do I have to use Euskotren ? Is interrail accepted?

Last leg of the trip would be from, I suppose, Vigo to Porto. I heard it's possible but I know no specifics.

And finally, can any one provide info on available train trips on the Douro Valley ? Considering going a boat cruise with return by train. Feasible ?

Many thanks in advance for any help or advice,
Marc.

 

[nwales58]

Edit: by ‘no high-speed trains’ do you mean avoid train types such as Renfe S-130 and S-120 on Alvia services, or are those OK if not travelling fast? Alternative at bottom.

I was doing SW France-Basque country last month.

On Interrail you could get all the way from Lille or Maubeuge to Hendaye by TER via Paris then down the classic line Orleans-Tours-Poitiers.

Euskotren is the only option from Hendaye, costs Eur 1.95 to Irun or 2.90 to San Sebastian. Renfe Cercanias C1 is roughly hourly from Irun to San Sebastian, only one Alvia (?) starts at Irun currently, so you’ll need to change at San Sebastian to go further. Beware Irun is not a convenient change Euskotren-Renfe at present due to construction work, from the road bridge you walk about 500-600m in zig-zags to reach the temporary platforms so allow time. It’s not much further, maybe 800m, between San Sebastian Amara and the Renfe station.

Barcelona-Galicia Alvia is daily all year. It’s slow (from Barcelona it’s always faster via Madrid now but that means 2 trains so 2 supplements) but wonderful scenery west of Leon. Renfe sense of humour is that it alternates between Coruna and Vigo generally with a connection at Ourense to the other one. This can be full several days ahead. If you are breaking the journey into 2 days, this runs coupled with a set for Salamanca as far as Miranda de Ebro so more seats that far.

From San Sebastian you pick up the Alvia at Vitoria/Gasteiz around 1400, there is a ‘Intercity’ connection from San Sebastian.

Interrail supplements: R have no supplement, MD and most RE need a supplement (I usually check on bahn.de, Renfe now seem to upload ‘reservation compulsory’ correctly to Midas but always check times on Renfe) but it’s cheap, Alvia/AVE/Euromed supplement. If using a 1st class pass on AVE there are different supplements for confort/XL and Premium, same seat but Premium adds lounge access and airline-style tray meal on board. Interrail is not valid for Avlo, same as Ouigo.

If avoiding Alvias there are a few surprisingly long distance Media Distancia services, though slower, infrequent (and you might prefer to stop somewhere other than Ponferrada for a night). You can use MD services San Sebastian-Vitoria-Palencia or Valladolid-Leon-Ponferrada-Ourense-Vigo. To plan that on bahn.de switch off high speed and Intercity trains but then check Renfe because some MD services are actually MD fares for shorter journeys on Alvia services - two separate trains shown at the same time one Alvia one MD.

Vigo-Porto is 2 trains daily, ‘Celta’. If not showing wherever you look, see cp.pt timetables, Horarios, Comboios Internacionales. Needs a reservation. Beware Vigo has two stations, fast trains use Urzaiz which is up the hillside, trains to Porto use Guixar down by the docks (also MD/R direct to Ourense and some R to Santiago still). If train times are not convenient, coach to Porto is faster and much more frequent but the bus station in Vigo is 1.5-2 km south of the centre.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Vigo-Porto is 2 trains daily, ‘Celta’. If not showing wherever you look, see cp.pt timetables, Horarios, Comboios Internacionales. Needs a reservation. Beware Vigo has two stations, fast trains use Urzaiz which is up the hillside, trains to Porto use Guixar down by the docks (also MD/R direct to Ourense and some R to Santiago still). If train times are not convenient, coach to Porto is faster and much more frequent but the bus station in Vigo is 1.5-2 km south of the centre.

The coach station (for Porto) in Vigo is now alongside Urzaiz station - a rare bit of integration for Spain! - in Porto the coach runs to Campanhã coach station the other side of the tracks to the rail station, so you have to get the train or metro to the city-centre.

An alternative route to Porto would be via Madrid - Badajoz - Entroncamento (there are MD services as well as 'Alvias'). Badajoz to Entroncamento is a single railcar which is fun!

 

[SHD]

You can do Paris-Hendaye in a day without using high speed trains and with only one change, but it's going to be a looong day.

Paris-Austerlitz 08:28
Toulouse-Matabiau 15:32, train 3619. It stops at every pissotière along the way, that's why it takes more than 7 hours.

Toulouse-Matabiau 16:31
Hendaye 20:56, train 14155. If you have never done the Pyrennean Piedmont line, it's an interesting one.



I can suggest an itinerary from Brussels to Bordeaux that bypasses Paris... but you will need two full days, and a stop in Caen. And some transfers may be a bit tight (although they always take place in reasonably sized cities).

Day 1
Brussels - Lille by any means you wish

Lille-Flandres 15:53
Amiens 17:10, train 43918

Amiens 17:28
Rouen-RD 18:55, train 48959

Rouen-RD 19:05
Caen 20:49, train 52086. Walk to the Caen leisure harbour for dinner (it will still be possible at 9 pm-ish, but book beforehand) and have a sound night at a hotel.

Day 2
Caen 11:05
Rennes 14:31, train 52820, pack a sandwich and eat it admiring the Normandy bocage and the MSM

Rennes 14:56
Nantes 17:15, train 57779 (Note : this one actually uses the high-speed line... but it's a ZTER, not a TGV, top speed 200 km/h, and you get to ride on a very underused chord)

Nantes 17:55
Bordeaux Saint-Jean 22:06. Enjoy a sandwich and a canon de rouge watching the sunset, and go crash at a hotel near Saint-Jean.

 

[NCT]

To be honest I don't really 'get' the no high-speed thing when travelling in France and Spain.

Unless you get a Corail (if that's what you are into), then classic services tend to be boring units with no frill.

Interrail isn't great value in France and Spain anyway - hefty reservation charges and their ordinary tickets are comparatively good value - everything (even some of the long-distance TERs) is reservation only so everything is Advance; Interrail quotas sell out too so there's no flexibility to lose either. Interrail reservations for Spanish IR trains can only be made at the station (unless that's changed recently) so there's more jeopardy than buying a normal ticket in advance. If you know you are keen on the classic Ouigos then I'd just ordinary ticket all the way.

 

[rvdborgt]

Interrail isn't great value in France and Spain anyway - hefty reservation charges and their ordinary tickets are comparatively good value - everything (even some of the long-distance TERs) is reservation only so everything is Advance; Interrail quotas sell out too so there's no flexibility to lose either.

There are no limited quotas in France and Spain, only on Eurostar and TGV from/to Brussels. Only the €10 domestic TGV reservations have limited availability, but after that the €20 reservations are available until the train is full.
Regular TGV fares can get quite high though, so whether Interrail is good value depends a lot on when you travel, how long in advance you can book and how much flexibility you need.

Interrail reservations for Spanish IR trains can only be made at the station (unless that's changed recently)

That has changed. They can be booked via Interrail and Happyrail.com since last year (both with a fee) and now also on raileurope.com (Happyrail is the only one for now that books MDs online). Renfe does f up every once in a while though, which usually means some reservations can't be booked online temporarily.

 

[SHD]

I concur with NCT. You should treat France as the high-speed-railover (*) part of your journey. The most reasonable choice in my opinion is Brussels-Paris-Bordeaux on Thalys (**) and TGV, enjoy Bordeaux, it's a nice enough city, spend a nice evening there, and start your classic train journey at Saint-Jean the following morning.

I've searched the itineraries above for fun, but they really won't give you a pleasant trip.

(*) as in flyover
(**) I speak old money

 

[rvdborgt]

I've searched the itineraries above for fun, but they really won't give you a pleasant trip.

That depends a lot on what you find pleasant. To me, the itinerary via Toulouse is still quite appealing. Paris-Toulouse is Corail, Toulouse-Hendaye Coradia Liner, both with pretty nice 1st class.

 

[signed]

OP doesn't want to get a High-Speed train unless strictly necessary

My rough sketch would be

- Brussels to Paris
- Lille to Paris (using HS here, it's only a 1h hop)
- Paris to Toulouse
- Toulouse to Hendaye
- Hendaye to San Sebastian
Stop Over
On Wendnesday/Fridays/Sundays
San Sebastian - Vitoria/Gasteiz - Vigo
Stopover
Vigo - Porto

You will have a impossible time not using the Alvia (250km/h) though

 

[SHD]

Oh yes, for the Toulouse itinerary, the rolling stock is comfortable and the timings are sensible, that's why I suggested it in the first place.

But the pleasantness of a trip depends on a variety of personal parameters and preferences and I can't judge what Marc's are. For example, I don't particularly enjoy train picincs and I loathe train station food, which is horrendous and overpriced in France. But doing Paris-Hendaye in a day does not really offer another option for putting calories in one's body. Plus, the first three hours of the Paris-Toulouse trip take place in a terribly boring environment. The landscape only becomes interesting after Limoges. And I'm not even sure that the 3619 is a V200. The tiny thrill of excitement of a 200 km/h Corail roaring through the Beauce plain might not be there.

 

[NCT]

Corails are in various states as well. Take a few deep breaths before you embark on a toilet break.

 

[Giugiaro]

Last leg of the trip would be from, I suppose, Vigo to Porto. I heard it's possible but I know no specifics.

Tren/Comboio Celta Porto-Vigo, booked with Renfe: https://www.cp.pt/passageiros/en/how-to-travel/celta-train

The Celta departs from Vigo-Guixar, which is a different station downhill from Vigo-Urzáiz. The departure times are 08:58 and 19:56.

And finally, can any one provide info on available train trips on the Douro Valley ? Considering going a boat cruise with return by train. Feasible ?

Packages with boat and train are sold by travel agencies. Ask your local agency for information about these offerings.

 

[rvdborgt]

Corails are in various states as well. Take a few deep breaths before you embark on a toilet break.

The ones in use on Paris-Toulouse are the ex-Téoz stock, with a renovation that gave them TGV seats. They're quite OK, including the toilets.
Étampes-Orléans-Vierzon is at 200 km/h.

 

[SHD]

The ones in use on Paris-Toulouse are the ex-Téoz stock, with a renovation that gave them TGV seats. They're quite OK, including the toilets.
Étampes-Orléans-Vierzon is at 200 km/h.

I had a closer look at the 3619 train timings, it is clocked at 1hr02 for Paris-Les Aubrais and 38 minutes for Les Aubrais-Vierzon, which is very hard if not impossible if it's not a V200 indeed.
(I'm sure you know that, but maybe not all forum members do: V200 is a train category in France, not a description of the linespeed. V stands for Voyageurs [Passengers] and not for Vitesse [Speed].)

 

[nwales58]

The coach station (for Porto) in Vigo is now alongside Urzaiz station - a rare bit of integration for Spain! -

Hooray. San Sebastian's new coach station is deep underground alongside the Renfe station too.

in Porto the coach runs to Campanhã coach station the other side of the tracks to the rail station, so you have to get the train or metro to the city-centre.

Or change at Valenca (worth seeing anyway) from where the trains are much more frequent and the Central Camionagem is maybe 400m from the station.

An alternative route to Porto would be via Madrid - Badajoz - Entroncamento (there are MD services as well as 'Alvias').

Which opens up the two other non-AVE treks across Spain.

Barcelona-Madrid via Zaragoza: 2 daily Zaragoza-Madrid R/RE, Barcelona-Zaragoza is 2 daily through RE and a few connections, either the scenic wiggly route via Caspe or via Lleida. Instead of overnight in Barcelona and Madrid, I would go straight through both and stop in Zaragoza or Lleida instead.

Madrid-Merida is 2 MD/RE, these are often fully booked on the day, there's a 3rd service if you stop at Palencia (worthwhile) overnight. Other good stops: Caceres (beautiful historic centre), Merida (Romans).

Barcelona-Merida via Manzanares using what was the Torre de Oro (now Alvia). At Manzanares this connects into a through MD all the way to Badajoz. from Ciudad Real to Merida is 4 hours travelling through deep, almost unpopulated, Spain.

Consider coach from Merida or Badajoz across the border to Evora (also Roman) for more frequent faster train to Lisbon.

MarcVD may no longer have a wife at the end of those though.

For scenery, the Galicia Alvia is better eastbound because westbound the best part, through the mountains from Leon, is evening and can be after dark when you get to Santiago or Vigo. So I would go via Badajoz outbound and return via Vigo.

These routes I would take several days over staying at interesting places along the way, Spain has many many historic towns and smaller cities that foreign tourists miss, particularly as it's a 2 week holiday.

 

[HS2isgood]

There's no Madrid - Zaragoza RE, it's a nearly 4.5 hour Rail Rep between Guadalajara and Zaragoza connecting with a C-2 all stops to Madrid. Line closed for loading gauge upgrade until December.

Also, Palencia isn't between Madrid and Badajoz, Plasencia is.

 

[nwales58]

There's no Madrid - Zaragoza RE, it's a nearly 4.5 hour Rail Rep between Guadalajara and Zaragoza connecting with a C-2 all stops to Madrid. Line closed for loading gauge upgrade until December.

Argh.

Also, Palencia isn't between Madrid and Badajoz, Plasencia is.

Thanks, and Plasencia is prettier than Palencia.

 

[HS2isgood]

Argh.

Thanks, and Plasencia is prettier than Palencia.

Definitely! Spain has many not well known pretty places!

 

[MarcVD]

OK - thanks for the many repliés so far. Here are some points I can already answer :

1) I will be travelling alone, my wife will fly. She’s no train fan. We are used to do it that way. I will fly back with her. So no tourists stops on the way, this will be for when we're at destination together.

2) I don't want high speed trains because you don't get to see anything interesting on those trains. I want to see stations, train operations, signals, freight... For my own interests, high speed trains are boring. Just a way to get fast from A to B. That's not what I'm after with this trip.

3) I'm not afraid of long trips and temporary spartan conditions if there is no choice. For the record, I've been all the way by train to Tehran, Beijing , and Taskent in the last 15 years. So for me 4 days to Porto should be a piece of cake, even if I'm slightly older now.

4) Interrail is my preferred method but if it's no good value in France and Spain then I'll happily switch to normal tickets.

5) Buses are not an option, even if it costs me one more day of travel to do it entirely by train.

6) I have been to Lisbon by train once already, long time ago, with the night train from Irun. I want a different itinerary this time. Hence the idea to go via Vigo. But the alternative from Madrid could also be an option, if I can do it mostly with normal trains.

For the moment, what I consider is

Day 1 Brussels Paris Nantes Bordeaux
Day 2 Bordeaux Barcelona (not checked feasibility of that yet)
Day 3 Barcelona Vigo cross country
Day 4 Vigo Porto

Need to investigate Day 2 and find how to purchase tickets for Day 3 and 4.

Please keep all those interesting comments coming!

Thanks,
Marc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jun 2025 ==

Bahn.de apparently does not know anything about the trains between Latour de Carol and Barcelona. Odd, or is there something I should know ?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Bordeaux to Barcelona - the scenic route would be via Toulouse and Latour de Carol. If you go via Narbonne and Cerbère / Portbou to Barcelona, note that Portbou to Girona is closed at weekends all summer for catenary replacement and is a dreaded RRB.

 

[NCT]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jun 2025 ==

Bahn.de apparently does not know anything about the trains between Latour de Carol and Barcelona. Odd, or is there something I should know ?

Rodalies don't publish their schedule to the usual central database (my non-technical description of the normal industry process).

Check schedules on the Rodalies de Catalunya website

Home

rodalies.gencat.cat

Seat61 usually provides a good overview.

 

[bspahh]

In 2022, I planned this route to Barcelona, but life got in the way, and I didn't do it in the end:

STP d09:01 a11:28 Lille Europe £74.50

Lille F d13:01 a17:10 Avignon TGV Ouigo #7835 euro 30.70

Lille E d14:03 a18:08 Avignon TGV TGV INOUI #5030 £66

Avign C d11:35 a15:45 Port Bou euro 41

PortBou d16:05 a18:40 Barcelona Sants euro 13.20


Barca S d08:15 a13:20 Lyon Part Dieu £35

Lyon PD d14:00 a16:57 Lille Europe £75

Lille E d19:35 a19:57 STP £39

 

[nwales58]

Welcome to another spanish peculiarity.

Latour de Carol-Barcelona (also Irun-Hendaye, crossing Madrid etc) is Renfe Cercanias (suburban, despite being a multi-hour journey, Rodalies in Catalan).

As well as gencat.cat for Catalunya, all Cercanias are on renfe.com, look for a separate tab somewhere then choose the area. You’ll find timetables, zone maps and fares.

Cercanias ticketing: Interrail is valid though Rail Planner does not have times nor C-only stations, plan something else then add manually where you can type any station name. When you get into city areas most stations have barriers, you’ll need staff or press the help point to get out.

Buying Cercanias tickets: from LTdC you bought from the guard when I was last there. Normally you buy from a machine or ticket office and also have to pay for a Renfe&Tu support (reusable but only for a limited period and in the same area I think). If you have a long distance ticket it is valid on Cercanias at both ends, some barriers scan the bar code, others you go to a ticket machine and get a free ticket.

 

[rvdborgt]

Cercanias ticketing: Interrail is valid though Rail Planner does not have times nor C-only stations, plan something else then add manually where you can type any station name. When you get into city areas most stations have barriers, you’ll need staff or press the help point to get out.

In Catalonia, the Rodalies barriers are supposed to work with the Rail Planner app's barcode and it indeed worked for me for a few days 2 years ago, but then it changed to "Server error".

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The Barcelona to Vigo service, of course, travels on the LAV as far as Zaragoza (and gauge changes west of the city) - there is no way of avoiding this really. There are very occasional services Barcelona to Zaragoza on the old main-line via Caspe but you wouldn't make Vigo the same day.

 

[nwales58]

Day 1 Brussels Paris Nantes Bordeaux
Day 2 Bordeaux Barcelona (not checked feasibility of that yet)
Day 3 Barcelona Vigo cross country
Day 4 Vigo Porto

Need to investigate Day 2 and find how to purchase tickets for Day 3 and 4.

If buying tickets for days 3 and 4 use renfe.com or the Renfe app. You’ll need to create an account. Where it wants a DNI enter any identity card number.

Buying Barcelona-Vigo you might hit a complication. If the 0905 Alvia is not shown it is probably a Coruna day. Either change plan to 1 day earlier/later, or buy an Alvia ticket to Ourense then a separate MD ticket for the connection to Vigo. Sometime Renfe sell connections, sometimes they don’t.

Vigo-Porto can be bought on Renfe too though sometimes it gives an error.

Day 1: once in Paris you could use Intercités from Bercy to Clermont-Ferrand connecting into TER, assuming it’s not a bus currently, to Names for the night. Day 2 via Portbou or Latour de Carol.

A Eur 20 2 day Occitanie Rail Tour pass would get you from Clermont-Ferrand to Latour de Carol or Portbou on TER services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2025 ==

The Barcelona to Vigo service, of course, travels on the LAV as far as Zaragoza (and gauge changes west of the city)

Also, I assume, the recently opened LAV Burgos-Venta de Baños then LAV to Leon, if the north curve is complete. I haven’t used it since it opened though so the Galicia part might still be on broad gauge.

I used the Alvia the other week Pamplona-Vitoria, 100 max till past Altsasu then a 150 sprint for less than 15 minutes.

 

[MarcVD]

Probably not going to use interrail. It's going to be fun to purchase all the tickets.

- Brussels to Paris on Ouigo I can buy at the Brussels Midi international counter.
- Paris to Nantes on the SNCF OUIGO web site only
- Nantes Bordeaux Toulouse Latour de Carol - Brussels Midi should be able to provide, including reservations.Vith a CIV ticket, breaking journey in Bordeaux for the night is not a problem, right ?
- Latour Barcelona would be OK with a CIV ticket ? If yes, one single ticket Nantes Barcelona ? It will be fun at the SNCB counter...
- Barcelona Vigo and Vigo Porto best purchased on the renfe web site I suppose... but for the fun of it I will certainly ask at the Brussels counter if they can do it.

Bahn.de tells me that leaving Bordeaux at 10.09 I can get in Latour at 16.27... now must see if I can still get a train to Barcelona at this time.

Just went to the renfe website, found the rodalies page, but cannot get their search engine to work. Got a pdf with the R3 schedule, it shows a train at 16.30. 3 minutes connection, would that be reliable ?

Do the train from Barcelona and the train to Porto arrive and depart from the same station in Vigo ?

 

[nwales58]

Very much doubt you can get Cercanias on an international ticket. Renfe don’t even sell them in other areas of Spain from past experience.

Search previous threads for discussions on connections at Latour de C.

 

[rvdborgt]

- Brussels to Paris on Ouigo I can buy at the Brussels Midi international counter.

Yes, with a booking fee.
FYI: if you want to book at the ticket office to get the standard CIT format international tickets, then be warned that NMBS/SNCB don't issue any tickets anymore that way. They issue all international tickets on A4 and they look the same as tickets you book yourself online.

- Nantes Bordeaux Toulouse Latour de Carol - Brussels Midi should be able to provide, including reservations.Vith a CIV ticket, breaking journey in Bordeaux for the night is not a problem, right ?

It looks like there are only tickets valid in a certain train, that may or may not be changeable: break of journey is not permitted.

- Latour Barcelona would be OK with a CIV ticket ? If yes, one single ticket Nantes Barcelona ? It will be fun at the SNCB counter...

Tickets are only available in Catalonia. In Latour, only from the guard.

- Barcelona Vigo and Vigo Porto best purchased on the renfe web site I suppose... but for the fun of it I will certainly ask at the Brussels counter if they can do it.

NMBS/SNCB recently started selling Renfe tickets again, so Barcelona-Vigo should work and Vigo-Porto maybe.

Just went to the renfe website, found the rodalies page, but cannot get their search engine to work. Got a pdf with the R3 schedule, it shows a train at 16.30. 3 minutes connection, would that be reliable ?

I wouldn't do that without a plan B.

Do the train from Barcelona and the train to Porto arrive and depart from the same station in Vigo ?

Yes they do (Vigo Guixar)

 

[RT4038]

Rodalies don't publish their schedule to the usual central database (my non-technical description of the normal industry process).

Check schedules on the Rodalies de Catalunya website

Home

rodalies.gencat.cat

Seat61 usually provides a good overview.

https://rodalies.gencat.cat/web/.content/02_Horaris/horaris/R3.pdf