Triangular journey, Nottingham, Derby, Sheffield.

[DDB]

Hi, A trianglar journey challenge for you.

I want to make the following journey:
Nottingham->Derby
Derby->Sheffield
Sheffield->Nottingham.
I already have a season ticket that covers Nottingham to Derby (A Robin Hood card and an Attonbourgh to Derby season ticket) so the first leg is covered. I could just get two advance singles to cover the other two legs but is there something clever I could do instead that would allow me more time flexibility but be cheaper than two off peak singles.

I would be doing all the legs on the same day and the last two legs would be in the afternoon/evening and so off peak. I am not eligible for any rail cards.

Thanks in advance

DDB

 

[30907]

If NRE is to be believed, a Derby-Sheffield Offpeak Day Return is valid via Nottingham. I would be inclined to take a copy of the itinerary, as it seems counter-intuitive.
I wonder if someone familiar with the area could comment?

 

[JB_B]

If NRE is to be believed, a Derby-Sheffield Offpeak Day Return is valid via Nottingham. I would be inclined to take a copy of the itinerary, as it seems counter-intuitive.
I wonder if someone familiar with the area could comment?

Derby<->Sheffield via Nottingham is a mapped route (map DY).

 

[crosscity]

My starter for ten. Buy a Derbyshire Wayfarer for £13 at Derby station. This is valid from Derby to Sheffield after 09:00 and is also valid as far as Ilkeston coming from the North. Buy an Ilkeston to Nottingham single at the same time for £3.70. So total of £16.70. This will restrict you to the Northern trains only south of Chesterfield.

Alternatively, buy an Alfreton to Nottingham single for £7.40 instead of the Ilkeston ticket, and you can catch the East Midlands Sheffield-Nottingham fast trains too as they stop at Alfreton.

 

[cactustwirly]

My starter for ten. Buy a Derbyshire Wayfarer for £13 at Derby station. This is valid from Derby to Sheffield after 09:00 and is also valid as far as Ilkeston coming from the North. Buy an Ilkeston to Nottingham single at the same time for £3.70. So total of £16.70. This will restrict you to the Northern trains only south of Chesterfield.

Alternatively, buy an Alfreton to Nottingham single for £7.40 instead of the Ilkeston ticket, and you can catch the East Midlands Sheffield-Nottingham fast trains too as they stop at Alfreton.

No if you have a day rover (also a season or a daily zonal ticket), then the train does not need to stop when you change over the tickets.
This is according to the NRCoT 14.2.
So the OP could legitimately use an Ilkeston - Botts ticket, and travel on a fast EMT service.

 

[OwlMan]

A Derby to Sheffield off-peak day return is £11.90 and is valid to travel via Nottingham group. So you can use your season tickets to Derby and then the Return ticket Derby - Sheffield - Nottingham

 

[DDB]

Thanks for everybodys help it seems an off-peak day return Derby to Sheffield finishing 'short' in Nottingham on return is the answer. I'm hoping to come to the Nottingham fares workshop next year to ask these sort of questions but in the meantime would someone mind explaining to me why the DY map (which I've found on the ATOC website) means it is valid?
For bonus points, using via Nottingham on the national rail app shows some return leg options as "unavailable for selected fare" . One uses the once a day, I assume route knowledge retention, Northern service from Nottingham to Sheffield via Derby and the other uses the very last EMT train from STP that reverses at Nottingham on the way to Derby.
DDB

 

[Skymonster]

For bonus points, using via Nottingham on the national rail app shows some return leg options as "unavailable for selected fare" . One uses the once a day, I assume route knowledge retention, Northern service from Nottingham to Sheffield via Derby and the other uses the very last EMT train from STP that reverses at Nottingham on the way to Derby.

Both of those Sheffield-Nottingham legs (21:02 and 23:37 off Sheffield) are routed via Derby. By travelling back via Derby on a Derby-Sheffield return, even though your intent is to end your trip at Nottingham by stopping short, your return ticket is condidered used when get reach Derby and does not have validity beyond through to Nottingham.

 

[higthomas]

in the meantime would someone mind explaining to me why the DY map (which I've found on the ATOC website) means it is valid?

You need to read an intro to the routing guide, but basically there is a list (the yellow pages) which tells you which maps you should look at for each pair of stations, and any routes between those stations on that map is valid.

Edit: The routing guide is a guide to which routes are valid for a given ticket. See http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide

 

[A Challenge]

I read the question as why Nottingham Group to Sheffield Group was on map DY?

 

[DDB]

My question was how you use the maps. I hadn't considered the question of what map to use! (which I know no the answer). Is it as simple as if it is on the map and doesn't involve doubling back you can use it?

 

[Belperpete]

My starter for ten. Buy a Derbyshire Wayfarer for £13 at Derby station. This is valid from Derby to Sheffield after 09:00 and is also valid as far as Ilkeston coming from the North. Buy an Ilkeston to Nottingham single at the same time for £3.70. So total of £16.70. This will restrict you to the Northern trains only south of Chesterfield.

If the poster hadn't got the season to get him to Derby, another option would have been the special Derbyshire Wayfarer that includes travel from and to Nottingham, via either Long Eaton or Langley Mill, at £17.80.
The Wayfarers are particularly good value for senior citizens, as they only cost half price (£6.50 for the normal version, £8.90 for the Nottingham version). And they are valid from 9am, whereas off-peak tickets are only valid from 09:30?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

My question was how you use the maps. I hadn't considered the question of what map to use! (which I know no the answer). Is it as simple as if it is on the map and doesn't involve doubling back you can use it?

Yes; if you can trace your intended route on the map(s) without passing through a station more than once, you can do it. There's a few more 'asterisks' to it than that, but that's the gist of it.

 

[Skymonster]

Derby - Sheffield is valid via Nottingham because us locals prefer to ride in an EMT or Northern 158, rather than a Cross Country Voyager or an EMT Meridian

 

[Chris999999]

Yes; if you can trace your intended route on the map(s) without passing through a station more than once, you can do it. There's a few more 'asterisks' to it than that, but that's the gist of it.

So are you saying I could travel from Barnsley to Rotherham via Wakefield, Leeds, Pontefract, York, Selby, Doncaster and Swinton, on a Barnsley to Rotherham ticket?

 

[Skymonster]

So are you saying I could travel from Barnsley to Rotherham via Wakefield, Leeds, Pontefract, York, Selby, Doncaster and Swinton, on a Barnsley to Rotherham ticket?

Barnsley - Rotherham is mapped on MY or NB. Neither permit anything like that range of choices.

 

[alistairlees]

So are you saying I could travel from Barnsley to Rotherham via Wakefield, Leeds, Pontefract, York, Selby, Doncaster and Swinton, on a Barnsley to Rotherham ticket?

No. You should probably just read https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/railuk-fares-ticketing-guide-section-3-routeing.70716/

 

[crosscity]

If the poster hadn't got the season to get him to Derby, another option would have been the special Derbyshire Wayfarer that includes travel from and to Nottingham, via either Long Eaton or Langley Mill, at £17.80.
The Wayfarers are particularly good value for senior citizens, as they only cost half price (£6.50 for the normal version, £8.90 for the Nottingham version). And they are valid from 9am, whereas off-peak tickets are only valid from 09:30?

The Derby-Sheffield fares are set by East Midlands Trains. The Off-Peak Day Return is valid on trains timed to depart after 8:59; Oddly the Off-Peak Return is valid on trains timed to depart after 09:00 (1 minute later than the day ticket).

As you say, the Wayfarer ticket is excellent value for Seniors. The off-peak ticket sounds as though it was designed for the Op!

 

[yorkie]

Nottingham->Derby
Derby->Sheffield
Sheffield->Nottingham.
I already have a season ticket that covers Nottingham to Derby (A Robin Hood card and an Attonbourgh to Derby season ticket) so the first leg is covered.

DDB

Buy Long Eaton to Sheffield; I'd purchase this at either Derby or online.

Start short at Derby on the outward portion, and finish short at Nottingham on the return portion.

It is less likely to be questioned than a Derby to Sheffield ticket.

 

[button_boxer]

Both of those Sheffield-Nottingham legs (21:02 and 23:37 off Sheffield) are routed via Derby. By travelling back via Derby on a Derby-Sheffield return, even though your intent is to end your trip at Nottingham by stopping short, your return ticket is condidered used when get reach Derby and does not have validity beyond through to Nottingham.

Though in this case the OP has a season ticket to cover them between Derby and Nottingham.

 

[A Challenge]

Though in this case the OP has a season ticket to cover them between Derby and Nottingham.

But the Journey Planner doesn't know that (and while having a split-ticketing engine able to accept you already have a season might be useful, it is unlikely to be possible to program) and so is offering it at a higher price, even if you [the OP] would be able to take the route anyway, as you have a ticket to cover both parts of the double-back (even if 'breaking your journey' at Nottingham).

 

[yorkie]

But the Journey Planner doesn't know that (and while having a split-ticketing engine able to accept you already have a season might be useful, it is unlikely to be possible to program) . .

It is possible. However there is probably insufficient commercial need for it. Accreditation might be tricky too.

 

[robbeech]

I agree a Long Eaton ticket might be more useful but I have used the Derby Sheffield (and the other way around) ticket a lot and never had any issues.