Triangular journey: Cambridge, Reading and Henley-on-Thames

[arb]

This Saturday I wish to make a three-legged journey, firstly from Cambridge to Reading (CBG-RDG), then from Reading to Henley-on-Thames (RDG-HOT), and then Henley-on-Thames back to Cambridge (HOT-CBG).

Afer playing around a bit with National Rail Enquiries, I saw that London Terminals to HOT via RDG tickets exist, which seem to be just what I need. Checking on brfares.com showed these also exist from Boundary Zone 6. This leads me to believe that the following is a valid ticket combination for my journey, and is the cheapest I can find (all prices include Network Railcard discount):

* CBG to London day return + Travelcard: £14.85
* BZ6 - HOT day return, route Any Permitted: £6.85
* Excess outward leg of BZ6 - HOT to be via Reading, costing half the difference: (£11.15-£6.85)/2 = £2.15
Total cost = £23.85

Firstly, the simple questions: Am I correct to say that this is valid? Am I using/calculating excess fares correctly? And am I allowed to excess the BZ6-HOT ticket at the same time as buying it?

Secondly, the hard questions: I made the mistake of trying to understand *why* the London (or BZ6) to HOT, via RDG, is a valid route, which led to a whole can of worms that I now wish I hadn't opened!

To start with, the route clearly has a double-back between Twyford and Reading, something which I thought wasn't allowed? I can't find any easement in the routeing guide to allow it, so why is it allowed?

I dug deeper into the routeing guide, initially using an old copy of the instructions that I had saved on my computer (from before the currently published version dated 26th August). This states that "where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the guide which pass through the station shown in the route description". Now since there are no routes on a London to Henley ticket which pass through Reading, the logical conclusion is that I'm not allowed to choose any routes at all on a London to Henley via Reading ticket! This of course begs the question of why the ticket exists at all if it can't be used on any valid route, so what am I missing?

In the latest published (26th August) version of the instructions, the sentence I quoted has been replaced with "where the fare specifies a particular route, there will be restrictions in the fares route data that will affect the routes listed in the guide which pass through the station shown in the route description". I don't really understand what this is going on about - is the "fares route data" referring to the fares check rule for choosing routeing points? Or something else? Either way, I don't see how it helps, because no route in the guide for London-HOT passes through Reading in the first place, so such a route can't be affected by the fares route data, whatever it is!

Although I'm happy to travel on my suggested tickets based on the route offered by National Rail Enquiries (which seems to be perfectly sensible from a purely common-sense perspective), I'd really like to understand why it's valid, and would be grateful if anybody could explain.

 

[Romilly]

As regards your second (harder) question, the simplest way of looking at it is that via Reading is not a permitted route for a London to Henley "any permitted route" ticket, but it is (clearly) a valid route for a specially priced "via Reading" ticket. As you are not considering permitted London-Henley routes for a "via Reading" ticket, there is no need to look at the Routeing Guide for that purpose. (I suppose that there is a separate question as to what routes are allowed for London-Reading and Reading-Henley on a "via Reading" ticket, but if you are travelling Paddington-Reading-Twyford-Henley the question would seem to be academic.)

 

[LexyBoy]

Firstly, the simple questions: Am I correct to say that this is valid? Am I using/calculating excess fares correctly? And am I allowed to excess the BZ6-HOT ticket at the same time as buying it?

Yes, yes, and yes. This is a good combination I think - it's often beneficial to use such Travelcard+BZ6 fares when travelling to an "intercity" destination the other side of London.

Secondly, the hard questions: I made the mistake of trying to understand *why* the London (or BZ6) to HOT, via RDG, is a valid route, which led to a whole can of worms that I now wish I hadn't opened!

Because the fare is routed via Reading, which trumps Permitted Routes. If that route isn't one of the Permitted Routes, then you may travel on any PR to it, and any PR from it to the destination.

 

[Greenback]

As I understand things from the time I worked in the area, a via Reading fare exists because some people prefer to travel to Reading and catch a fast train to London from there, rather than a slower service direct from Henley/Twyford.

I don't know what the current situation is regarding timings, but it was certainly felt to be both quicker and more comfortable back in the day to travel into Reading.

 

[LexyBoy]

I don't know what the current situation is regarding timings, but it was certainly felt to be both quicker and more comfortable back in the day to travel into Reading.

It shows up on NRE as marginally quicker on one or two morning departures. The direct service is still some 20 minutes faster though.

As you say it's probably partly a comfort thing - largely a matter of perception though unless travelling 1st! I suspect it's also a proxy for an AAA Reading ticket, for those who drive and want a choice of service.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I don't know what the current situation is regarding timings, but it was certainly felt to be both quicker and more comfortable back in the day to travel into Reading.

Higher via Reading fares are also available from Twyford and Maidenhead. Whether faster via Reading is going to vary with the timetable.

The full range of potential stops beyond Maidenhead is Taplow, Burnham, Slough, Langley, Iver, West Drayton, Hayes, Southall and Ealing Broadway, so sailing past on an HST or even a non-stop Turbo by going via Reading has its points at some times of day or weekends.

 

[Greenback]

Ah it's good to be updated on what it's like these days! The comfort argument was certainly a stronger one when HST's were younger and 1st generation DMU's were still running around!

I suspect, you're right about the choice of destination being a benefit, too, LexyBoy.

 

[kieron]

Would Feltham-Staines-Reading-Twyford-Henley be a valid route on a Boundary Zone 6-Henley ticket, given that it is a valid route from Feltham (in zone 6) to Henley?

I'm sure someone with a "via Reading" ticket would have no difficulty in using it to double back between Twyford and Reading in any case.

 

[JonathanH]

Back in the 1990s, off-peak trains to Henley-on-Thames operated hourly from Reading reversing at Twyford. At that time, there was also only 2tph between London and Twyford so it could be advantageous to travel via Reading. Today, the off-peak trains on the Henley branch and from Paddington to Twyford are more frequent so there is less need for the "via Reading" ticket.

 

[cactustwirly]

Well a direct train to Paddington from Twyford takes around 40-50 minutes off-peak but a Reading to Paddington train takes around 20. But via Reading from Maidenhead isn't so time advantageous.

I know that the via Reading ticket can be much more expensive than the not via Reading one, so it might be worth buying a HOT to RDG and RDG to PAD ticket separately.

 

[arb]

So, knowing how busy Cambridge station normally is on a Saturday morning, I called in tonight to attempt to purchase the ticket combination I wanted.

Initially I was told that I couldn't purchase the excess at the same time as the others: they needed to issue the original ticket in one transaction before doing the excess afterwards. Seemed fair enough, but meant I couldn't use all of the travel vouchers I had wanted to because I wasn't paying the total amount in one go and there would be issues with giving me change . Nevertheless, I paid for and got the CBG to London + travelcard ticket, and the BZ6 to Henley return, Any Permitted ticket.

Then the fun started. I was told that I couldn't excess the outward portion only to "via Reading" for half the price. I could either excess the entire return ticket (both legs) for the full difference in price (seems a rather pointless option, since it doesn't gain me anything over just buying the more expensively routed ticket in the first place), or I could excess the outward half only for the difference in price between the single and return fares (which is 5p less than excessing both legs, and thus again seems rather pointless).

The staff were more than capable of issuing excesses, and indeed actually printed various tickets off for me to look at in order to confirm the price without asking for any money from me first, but ultimately said that they were incapable of issuing an excess for the outward leg only at half the price difference.

So I've been left with the already sold travelcard, and BZ6 to Henley any permitted ticket, for tomorrow. But together these don't cover the journeys I actually want to make

Does anyone have any suggestions for what I should do if I can't get the excess sold to me tomorrow morning? Irritatingly the option of a car-share between Reading and Henley has now been made available to me, so it's possible I might just need something to cover the journey between Twyford (where the routes diverge) and Reading, and not between Reading and Henley. But even then all I can see to do is to buy a Twyford to Reading single, which would mean I have to take the slow train to Reading, stopping at Twyford. So paying the full whack to excess in both directions is still probably a better solution for me, unless I get up really early in the morning!

Is this fact that the excess for the outward leg only should cost half the difference written down anywhere "official"? I can see it's in the ticketing guide on this forum, but is there somewhere more formal that I can quote and/or print out before trying again at the ticket office tomorrow morning?

 

[Hadders]

Oh dear!

You've a few options to get the excess:

- Try Kings Cross ticket office as you pass through.
- Paddington ticket office if the queue isn't too bad

Alternatively you can't receive a penalty fare for travelling off route and it is the same price if you purchase on board. The guard on the train out of Paddington should be able to do it.

I'd also complain to GTR about the lack of staff knowledge at Cambridge.

 

[bb21]

I think it is correct that the excess cannot be issued in the same transaction in the sense of "in one payment" as to do an excess, the ticket number would need to be known which obviously is only the case after the ticket is printed. They can be done in one transaction in the sense of "at the same visit".

As for the second question, I think some TIS may not have been programmed properly. If you cannot obtain the correct excess prior to boarding tomorrow, just get on the train. You cannot be Penalty Fared. The required documentation is on the second last page, Section A of the Routeing Guide, entitled Dual Route Availability.

From what the OP described, lack of staff knowledge is almost certainly not a cause.

 

[arb]

The required documentation is on the second last page, Section A of the Routeing Guide, entitled Dual Route Availability.

Thanks for the reference, but that section only talks about the procedure if the desired route for the *return* leg is higher in price. It doesn't mention what I want to do - excessing the outward leg only. Also it doesn't say anything about the price only being half the difference.

 

[bb21]

Attached is an extract from Excess Fare Procedures.

 

[arb]

I got the necessary ticket from Cambridge on Saturday morning - I was sold the excess from the ticket office, at the correct price, without any fuss or debate or all. So I'm not sure what the people on Friday night were doing!

I also took the opportunity to experiment with the ticket barriers at Reading, and was pleasantly surprised to find that the excess ticket let me through the barriers, whilst the original, off-route, ticket would not.

I couldn't do a similar experiment at Paddington because my train left from one of the unbarriered platforms. Completely off-topic question: what's the logic behind the barriered and unbarriered platforms at Paddington? It seems that the long-distance trains can leave from any of the "main" platforms 1 to 8 immediately adjacent to the main concourse, but only some of these have barriers.

 

[LexyBoy]

I also took the opportunity to experiment with the ticket barriers at Reading, and was pleasantly surprised to find that the excess ticket let me through the barriers, whilst the original, off-route, ticket would not.

The excess tickets are encoded as for the "full" ticket IIRC.

There are some tickets which will open the barriers at Reading despite being very much not on a permitted route...

I couldn't do a similar experiment at Paddington because my train left from one of the unbarriered platforms. Completely off-topic question: what's the logic behind the barriered and unbarriered platforms at Paddington? It seems that the long-distance trains can leave from any of the "main" platforms 1 to 8 immediately adjacent to the main concourse, but only some of these have barriers.

Platform 1 doesn't have barriers because there's an entrance on Eastbourne terrace, as well as shops - I suppose it could be segregated but would end up rather narrow and ugly.

Platforms 6 & 7 are HeX and unbarried because they are happy to sell on board.

Platforms 8 & 9 provide access to the taxi rank exit and H&C/Circle line tube station.

From memory, a BZ ticket won't open the barriers at Paddington. Travelcards certainly don't.

 

[infobleep]

The excess tickets are encoded as for the "full" ticket IIRC.

There are some tickets which will open the barriers at Reading despite being very much not on a permitted route...



Platform 1 doesn't have barriers because there's an entrance on Eastbourne terrace, as well as shops - I suppose it could be segregated but would end up rather narrow and ugly.

Platforms 6 & 7 are HeX and unbarried because they are happy to sell on board.

Platforms 8 & 9 provide access to the taxi rank exit and H&C/Circle line tube station.

From memory, a BZ ticket won't open the barriers at Paddington. Travelcards certainly don't.

How do people come across the fact tickets not permitted at station can open barriers at said station?

 

[island]

By trying them, normally whilst holding some other ticket or set of tickets which is/are valid.

 

[LexyBoy]

Indeed. Now that I've noticed it, I tend to test tickets (generally extensions to my Season) out of curiosity. There doesn't seem to be an obvious pattern from what I've seen.

 

[gazthomas]

While making your overall cost bit more expensive, would a £12.80 (with railcard) Thames Branches Day Ranger be of interest for your legs to Henley and Reading?