Triangular Haughley Junction?

[Sad Sprinter]

Here’s an idea, will adding a new chord at Haughley allow a faster Norwich-Cambridge service?

 

[dk1]

Here’s an idea, will adding a new chord at Haughley allow a faster Norwich-Cambridge service?

This ridiculous idea was suggested a week or so ago. It wouldn’t due to lack of capacity on the single line sections between Chippenham Junction and Coldham Lane Junction as well as the regular freight/passenger traffic operating Haughley to Chippenham Jcn. It would also deprive the service of much of its custom at intermediate stations from Wymondham to Brandon as well as its interchange possibilities at Ely.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2025 ==

Oh and that’s before we get started on the multi £million cost of construction. The money can’t even be found to correct the folly of redoubling Haughley Jcn itself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2025 ==

BR looked at the idea once in the bad old days but that was so they could close the Breckland line throughout diverting all inter-regional trains that way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2025 ==

It would be roughly 50mins fast Haughley to Cambridge. Add that to the 25mins Norwich to Haughley and you’d save 5-10mins if you were lucky.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

This ridiculous idea was suggested a week or so ago. It wouldn’t due to lack of capacity on the single line sections between Chippenham Junction and Coldham Lane Junction as well as the regular freight/passenger traffic operating Haughley to Chippenham Jcn. It would also deprive the service of much of its custom at intermediate stations from Wymondham to Brandon as well as its interchange possibilities at Ely.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2025 ==

Oh and that’s before we get started on the multi £million cost of construction. The money can’t even be found to correct the folly of redoubling Haughley Jcn itself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2025 ==

BR looked at the idea once in the bad old days but that was so they could close the Breckland line throughout diverting all inter-regional trains that way.

It’s not that bad an idea

 

[dk1]

It’s not that bad an idea

Do you think?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Do you think?

A 10 min saving in a major growth area isn’t awful, down an already electrified line. The Ipswich to Cambridge line should be electric anyway for freight. A fast electric Norwich to Cambridge service isn’t the worst idea in the world.

 

[dk1]

A 10 min saving in a major growth area isn’t awful, down an already electrified line. The Ipswich to Cambridge line should be electric anyway for freight. A fast electric Norwich to Cambridge service isn’t the worst idea in the world.

But it won’t be electric from Haughley-Cambridge though.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

But it won’t be electric from Haughley-Cambridge though.

I know, it should be theoretically, given the importance as a freight corridor. The entire region should be electric given the potential for growth in Cambridge.

 

[Magdalia]

Here’s an idea, will adding a new chord at Haughley allow a faster Norwich-Cambridge service?

This ridiculous idea was suggested a week or so ago.

In the context of relieving capacity at Ely, see here:

How would you remodel Ely North Junction and surrounding lines?

How much of that 800 metres would be earthworks, and how much concrete viaduct, in a grade separation on "normal" terrain? How would that be different on a Fenland peat bog with unstable ground conditions? For what it's worth, HS2 generally transitions from embankment to viaduct at between 6m...

www.railforums.co.uk

What makes it a bad idea is Warren Hill tunnel at Newmarket, which is single track and won't be electrified.

The entire region should be electric given the potential for growth in Cambridge.

No. Electrification isn't essential for growth in Cambridge, what matters is capacity. Where that capacity needs to be depends on where the houses are going to be built.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

In the context of relieving capacity at Ely, see here:

How would you remodel Ely North Junction and surrounding lines?

How much of that 800 metres would be earthworks, and how much concrete viaduct, in a grade separation on "normal" terrain? How would that be different on a Fenland peat bog with unstable ground conditions? For what it's worth, HS2 generally transitions from embankment to viaduct at between 6m...

www.railforums.co.uk

What makes it a bad idea is Warren Hill tunnel at Newmarket, which is single track and won't be electrified.


No. Electrification isn't essential for growth in Cambridge, what matters is capacity. Where that capacity needs to be depends on where the houses are going to be built.

Electrification will literally boost capacity though.

 

[Magdalia]

Electrification will literally boost capacity though.

On its own electrification does not increase capacity. In the case of Warren Hill, capacity is constrained by the limited number of paths through the single track tunnel. Within that constraint, longer trains increase capacity, but how they are propelled is irrelevant.

 

[deltic08]

On its own electrification does not increase capacity. In the case of Warren Hill, capacity is constrained by the limited number of paths through the single track tunnel. Within that constraint, longer trains increase capacity, but how they are propelled is irrelevant.

I totally disagree. Of course it depends on type of haulage. Electric locos are more powerful than any other propulsion. 25kv locos hauling any length of train will clear a section far faster than say diesel haulage thereby allowing more trains in that section in a given period, ergo more capacity.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

On its own electrification does not increase capacity. In the case of Warren Hill, capacity is constrained by the limited number of paths through the single track tunnel. Within that constraint, longer trains increase capacity, but how they are propelled is irrelevant.

I don’t know any European country that would argue against electrification

 

[Magdalia]

I don’t know any European country that would argue against electrification

Most other European countries don't have the same financial constraints as the UK.
For most of East Anglia's passenger trains, battery bimodes are going to be the way forward, like a class 755 but with batteries instead of diesel engines.
Regarding your Haughley North curve proposal, it does have the advantage that a battery bimode could run on electric Norwich-Haughley and Cambridge-Stansted, and would only need to run on batteries Haughley-Cambridge.

 

[dk1]

Most other European countries don't have the same financial constraints as the UK.
For most of East Anglia's passenger trains, battery bimodes are going to be the way forward, like a class 755 but with batteries instead of diesel engines.
Regarding your Haughley North curve proposal, it does have the advantage that a battery bimode could run on electric Norwich-Haughley and Cambridge-Stansted, and would only need to run on batteries Haughley-Cambridge.

Unfortunately whenever I have asked about battery (easier on the 755/3s with weights in two engine pods) the reply has been that there is no real interest from either side.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t know any European country that would argue against electrification

Plenty do, hence battery trains appearing in Spain, Italy, Germany, Denmark, France etc etc.


To go to the original question, what is the purpose of the proposal? Is it just to speed up Norwich to Cambridge servcies?

Presumably by doing this the service levels on the Breckland line would need to be maintained, so this proposal would see an all new service Norwich - Haughley- Newmarket - Cambridge.

If so, would it not be much simpler just to run an additional Norwich - Ely - Cambridge but not callign at the intermediae stations (except Ely and Cambridge North) ? Save yourself a lot of money and a whole load of hassle.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Here’s an idea, will adding a new chord at Haughley allow a faster Norwich-Cambridge service?

Is this the 'Haughley Junction' just beyond Stowmarket in mid Suffolk, where the line to Bury St Edmunds branches off the main line to Diss/Norwich? Isn't Norwich to Cambridge direct via Ely (hour and a quarter) not a sufficiently fast journey already?

 

[Magdalia]

Is this the 'Haughley Junction' just beyond Stowmarket in mid Suffolk, where the line to Bury St Edmunds branches off the main line to Diss/Norwich? Isn't Norwich to Cambridge direct via Ely (hour and a quarter) not a sufficiently fast journey already?

Are there any other Haughley Junctions?

The rail route Cambridge-Norwich via Ely is not direct, and takes about 80 minutes.

The most direct road route is A14-A11 via Newmarket and Thetford and is much more direct than either rail route.

 

[CMS1]

The Newmarket to Cambridge line merits investment as it could be a key commuter line for Cambridge with better service (including adding Cherry Hinton and Fulbourn stations). Capacity could be fixed, e.g. loops at Fulbourn and Dullingham or a dynamic loop half way. As well as commuter traffic, it could open up:
- Fast norwich to Cambridge services if above triangle
- East West services continuing to Ipswich (if EWR is really going to solve the 'all lines go to london' problem in southern England, it should be Didcot to Ipswich to connect all the mainlines)
- East West rail freight traffic (e.g. Felixstowe to Northampton gateway)
- Direct London services to Newmarket and Bury St Edmunds

 

[ac6000cw]

The most direct road route is A14-A11 via Newmarket and Thetford and is much more direct than either rail route.

Actually it isn't 'much more direct' - in round numbers, for a journey between Cambridge Station and Norwich Station, both Google and Bing maps suggest 65-67 miles via the A14-A11 route, and RailMiles come up with 68 miles via Ely by rail. A straight line measurement on Google/Bing maps between the same points is about 58 miles.

(For comparison Cambridge - Norwich via Haughley Junction would be around 71 miles).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2025 ==

Personally, I think if there's substantial money available to throw at the 'country' rail system in East Anglia (and there doesn't seem to be at the moment), then re-designing/re-engineering the Ely area has to be at the top of the pile, surely?

(The new Bacon Factory Curve at Ipswich cost 59 million over 10 years ago - with construction industry price inflation since then I doubt you'd get much change out of 100 million to build a west to north curve at Haughley Junction today. You'd have to generate a lot of extra revenue out of the extra Cambridge - Norwich trains over a longer route with an extra junction conflict to pay that back...)

 

[Magdalia]

Actually it isn't 'much more direct' - in round numbers, for a journey between Cambridge Station and Norwich Station, both Google and Bing maps suggest 65-67 miles via the A14-A11 route, and RailMiles come up with 68 miles via Ely by rail. A straight line measurement on Google/Bing maps between the same points is about 58 miles.

(For comparison Cambridge - Norwich via Haughley Junction would be around 71 miles).

Cambridge-Norwich by rail via Ely is 68m42c.
Cambridge-Norwich by rail via Haughley (reverse) is 73m35c, a north curve would reduce that to a bit below 73 miles.
What routes in and out of Cambridge/Norwich do those road distances take? Probably not the shortest. Quy-Thickthorn is very direct.

Personally, I think if there's substantial money available to throw at the 'country' rail system in East Anglia (and there doesn't seem to be at the moment), then re-designing/re-engineering the Ely area has to be at the top of the pile, surely?

East West Rail is top of the pile. I think we shouldn't stray onto Ely here!

The new Bacon Factory Curve at Ipswich cost 59 million over 10 years ago - with construction industry price inflation since then I doubt you'd get much change out of 100 million to build a west to north curve at Haughley Junction today. You'd have to generate a lot of extra revenue out of the extra Cambridge - Norwich trains over a longer route with an extra junction conflict to pay that back.

This is a good comparison, and demonstrates why a Haughley North curve won't happen.

The Newmarket to Cambridge line merits investment as it could be a key commuter line for Cambridge with better service (including adding Cherry Hinton and Fulbourn stations).

What happens to Cambridge-Newmarket depends on East West Rail and the Cambridge Growth Company, but I can't see anything changing for Warren Hill Tunnel.

 

[dk1]

When Anglia Railways (with a little financial assistance from the then Strategic Rail Authority) launched Norwich-Cambridge as we know it now in 2002 it was advertised with a 70 minute journey time for most services. It was planned to only call at Wymondham, Thetford & Ely. Following local pressure Attleborough was added to the route. A few years later following a timetable overhaul and speeding up of the Norwich-Liverpool service Brandon got added to the route too albeit originally every other hour if my memory serves me correctly. This soon went hourly and passenger numbers at Brandon grew from 36k to now 119k annually. In 2017 Cambridge North was also added as a call in every service and in December 2019 the extensions to/from Stansted Airport began.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The push in East Anglia for the Ipswich-Cambridge/Ely routes is to get Ipswich to Peterborough hourly and to solve the Cambridge-Newmarket half hourly issue.

Quite apart from the cost, Haughley North Junction doesn’t seem to add very much and the journey time savings seem to be negligible. Doubling the existing junction would be the thing that really needs to be done as well as getting rid of those single lead junctions at Ely. The value of parallel moves in both planning and actual running in East Anglia cannot be underestimated.

Sorting out those two locations (without doing the mega scheme at Ely) will unlock so much.

 

[Magdalia]

The push in East Anglia for the Ipswich-Cambridge/Ely routes is to get Ipswich to Peterborough hourly and to solve the Cambridge-Newmarket half hourly issue.

There are pushes in East Anglia for lots of rail improvements, but I'm not expecting many of them to turn from push into shove.

Those that do are likely to be on the bandwagon of the Cambridge Growth Company, and possibly also the New Towns Taskforce.

 

[ac6000cw]

What routes in and out of Cambridge/Norwich do those road distances take? Probably not the shortest. Quy-Thickthorn is very direct.

This is the Google maps road route (which I've got down to 64 miles with some manual adjustment at the Norwich end - the default route is south round the A47 to the A146 junction then north to the railway station, which is about 2.5 miles longer. At the Cambridge end the route to the A14 is about the shortest I think you could actually drive) - https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Norwich+Railway+Station,+Station+Approach,+Norwich+NR1+1EF/Cambridge,+Station+Rd,+Cambridge+CB1+2JW/@52.4997692,0.3770095,10z/data=!4m19!4m18!1m10!1m1!1s0x47d9e349189f5f2d:0x36dc1e2ac491a7a6!2m2!1d1.3064386!2d52.6269623!3m4!1m2!1d1.2789758!2d52.6181936!3s0x47d9e156d5468c8d:0x645fcc93312598fa!1m5!1m1!1s0x47d87083c513efe3:0xc3b0831300f8d3f1!2m2!1d0.1374478!2d52.1942193!3e0?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDgwNi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw==

...and a screen grab of the same, with the black straight-line distance measurement line on it (57.65 miles) - note the distance-adding wiggles in the A14 + A11 route Quy-Thickthorn relative to a straight line:

 

[Miles Bown]

In the context of relieving capacity at Ely, see here:

Surely even if Norwich - Cambridge trains were diverted via Bury, the intermediate stations on the Breckland line would still have to be served by something? I suppose slotting more stops into the EMR could be an option, but likely not popular as it would increase journey times from Norfolk to the rest of the country, and I shouldn't imagine those stations would appreciate losing their well-used direct link to Cambridge either. Assuming for these reasons the existing service would be retained alongside the via Bury route, surely there would be no capacity relief at Ely at all, making this chord an expensive way of avoiding the real problem.