Trespassers

[Oswyntail]

As has been mentioned before on this forum, there are large swathes of the continent where railways are unfenced. However, we do not hear of large numbers of continentals being mown down. So, what is the difference? IMHO, this country traditionally ran along the lines of "if it's not forbidden, you can do it", whereas the continental way has been "you can only do it if you are allowed to" (OK, huge generalisation, I know, but historically valid). However, over the last couple of decades, I have seen something in the British way eroded. It used to work because you could rely on most people to have common sense, enough to add "taking due care" after "you can do it". It is this sense of "taking care", and acting responsibly, that has been shrinking. Whether this is as a result of, or the cause of, more H&S rules is up for debate.

 

[GB]

I wouldn't advocate walking on the ECML, but on minor lines, where trains are slow and audible...

That says it all really :roll::roll:

 

[nedchester]

Not at all. I'm 16 and am in agreement with NedChester. No doubt Chester025 (Who is also young) will have the same views as I do too.

Very sensible young chap is Chester025 and yes I suspect he will have the same point of view.

I never said it was OK to do it just that it's not worth getting worked up about it all the time.

 

[ukrob]

If anybody cares to read what I write, I do not condone dangerous or criminal activity on the railway.

Good, we are all in agreement then that people should not trespass and walk on the line.

but on minor lines, where trains are slow and audible (and crucially where the line is not electrified... doh!), it seems harmless enough to me.

Oh, you DO condone criminal activity then.

Which is it?

As an aside, your comment about the platform edge doors has no relevance because they are not designed to stop suicides or trespassing, it is merely a by-product of their design.

 

[scotsman]

I don't care what anyone (other than the BTP or NR) says - if I see anyone trespassing on the line, they get an earfull off me and a call about their behaviour to the BTP.

However, if I saw someone wandering down the ECML I'd be tempted to dial 999.

Any thoughts?

 

[142094]

Going back to the thread about photters tresspassing to get pictures and what to do - of course it depends on the situation. For example if someone was tresspassing on a very busy mainline and in clear danger, you might be tempted to ring BTP/999 but by the time some gets into a van and gets to the location, that person is going to be a fair distance away and nothing much will happen. Now in the case of a rural line where someone has crossed a fence to get a picture but is not actually near the line, in this case I'd just leave them be unless they were really doing something dangerous.

 

[scotsman]

Now in the case of a rural line where someone has crossed a fence to get a picture but is not actually near the line, in this case I'd just leave them be unless they were really doing something dangerous.

Nah, they'd be shouted at to get off the line by me. If they refused, I'd get some pictures of the guy, his car reg (if applicable) and a call to the BTP.

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

Nah, they'd be shouted at to get off the line by me. If they refused, I'd get some pictures of the guy, his car reg (if applicable) and a call to the BTP.

Here's a personal question, but how old are you?

 

[142094]

Nah, they'd be shouted at to get off the line by me. If they refused, I'd get some pictures of the guy, his car reg (if applicable) and a call to the BTP.

Fair enough, but in reality if you don't work for the railways or are not a copper I bet they wouldn't take notice of you. Plus would BTP take the time to call up the DVLA, get the details, pay a visit to the person and take them to court? Probably not. Even the normal police don't do that in some cases have a look at this/ . Now the police here have most of the details and it would only take a quick check on the DVLA database to get a fine sent in the post, but only 62 out of 30k+ were fined.

Simple answer is that there are not the resources to catch everyone who tresspasses and only a small minority will be ever caught - to act as a laughable warning to the rest of them.

 

[yorkie]

Now the police here have most of the details and it would only take a quick check on the DVLA database to get a fine sent in the post, but only 62 out of 30k+ were fined.

The police are scared of the motorist lobby. Fining just 62 people out of 30,000+ people is considered a "war" on the motorist so they daren't do any more than that. But when it comes to railways, there are BTP officers with nothing better to do than harass people, inventing laws about photography, infringing peoples rights and making up laws. They always back each other up too, you can get a swarm of them (like unwanted wasps) all with nothing to do other than harass people. I witnessed this behaviour from them just last week, and not for the first time. Sadly, they're allowed to get away with treating us like crap. If they did that to motorists there'd be a huge outcry.

 

[scotsman]

Here's a personal question, but how old are you?

Indeed. A bit too personal, if you give a few reasons why you ask this - I might be able to help.

 

[ukrob]

Indeed. A bit too personal, if you give a few reasons why you ask this - I might be able to help.

Why so defensive?

If you read back in the thread, age divides and peoples attitudes have been discussed.

 

[scotsman]

Why so defensive?

I'm not being defensive, there's just a few things I don't reveal over the internet.

 

[O L Leigh]

The main problem I see with trespassers is that they don't actually have any idea how to act responsibly around the railway because they don't understand the risks. As has been hinted at already, there are risks associated with walking along the line, such as slip/trip hazards and potentially dangerous lineside equipment, but the main issue seems to be that they just don't understand train movements.

The evidence of my own experience is that people have trouble judging approach speeds, pay no attention to the warning horn, don't appreciate the amount of braking distance a train requires and a generally blissfully unaware of the possibility of there even being trains around. They wear earphones that render them deaf or are intent on looking at their mobile which renders them blind.

In countries that tolerate trespass, the level of rail fatalities tends to be higher. We are very lucky in the UK that the number of accidental deaths to trespassers (as opposed to suicides) is so low, especially when you consider the level of access that there is to the network on foot crossings and so on. It might be an extreme example, but in India it would not be considered unusual for the driver of suburban passenger trains in a large city to have more than 70 fatalities during their career. Here in the UK, some drivers are lucky enough to get through an entire career without any, while most may only have one or two.

I'm not sure it's H&S gone mad. My own thoughts on the matter are that the population as a whole is stupid and needs protecting from itself. We shouldn't need to have to explain to people that the railways are dangerous or that they shouldn't try and drive their cars along the line because the pratnav says "turn left", but unfortunately the need is there. If people really were responsible and acted responsibly I wouldn't have had so many near misses.

O L Leigh

 

[Aictos]

O L Leigh, you raise some very good points only this year a group of trespassers were stopped by Letchworth staff asking where they had came from, to be told they had walked along the track from Baldock when told it was highly dangerous as trains were still running, the trespassers replied with the gem that they had checked the timetable and the last train had run!!!

This is why trespassing should be treated seriously and not treat such incidents with a reckless disregard for the rules which are there for our safety.

 

[jon0844]

How does a driver know these trespassers aren't any danger?

You may well have someone keeping well away from the track and taking all the necessary precautions when crossing (let's be honest, it isn't THAT difficult) but that's not the point - it's not allowed, and the driver is almost certainly not going to simply pass by without stopping or calling it in, and having the line suspended.

The only way we could change things would be to allow people to walk along the line, and have a 'if you get run over, tough ****' disclaimer. I can just imagine that happening here.

Society is different here. I can drive at 150mph in Germany on an autobahn, but know it would be carnage if we allowed that here. The fact is, you'd need to change the whole way of thinking for people, who have been brought up wrapped in cotton wool for so long.

It's not surprising that you often find the people walking along the line are from eastern European countries, where I'm sure it's acceptable or tolerated.

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

I'm not being defensive, there's just a few things I don't reveal over the internet.

Well as ukrob said, the reason is further up in the thread.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Well as ukrob said, the reason is further up in the thread.

How old are you then? If Scotsman doesn't want to say, then that's his prerogative.

 

[ukrob]

How old are you then? If Scotsman doesn't want to say, then that's his prerogative.

That has already been answered in the thread too.

Gotta love how people jump in without reading.

If people still want to know (personally I'm not bothered), how about scotsman gives a rough age range he falls into - would that be a fair compromise?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

That has already been answered in the thread too.

Gotta love how people jump in without reading.

Considering I've been posting in this thread before you had started, I don't think you can accuse me of that. Anyway, I and many others may have been under the impression that it was a discussion forum for railways. Not one for whatever ukrob hasn't said/implied/mentioned.

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

How old are you then? If Scotsman doesn't want to say, then that's his prerogative.

16 (read it this time? :roll: )

Chill out FFS. Getting hyped up about giving an age out, give over. I (and others) thought it was obvious why I asked for his age. Just to see if what has been said further up applies.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

16 (read it this time? :roll: )

Chill out FFS. Getting hyped up about giving an age out, give over. I (and others) thought it was obvious why I asked for his age. Just to see if what has been said further up applies.

Ironically it seems to be you who is getting excited about this. And those who have to resort to swearing (or implying that you are) are usually those who cannot express themselves more eloquently. I merely stated that if Scotsman doesn't want to say, he doesn't have to.

16 (read it this time? :roll: )

My apologies - I missed your earlier post about your age.

 

[Old Timer]

The trespass question is somewhat more complex than it at first seems, and it does not easily come down to a simple "does it matter" style approach.

Firstly people using the railway as a walking route is something that is being discouraged world-wide in all developing, and developing Countries. Even some of the under-developed Countries are setting their eyes on this.

In the USA where public use of the lines used to be tolerated in a fashion, this has completely reversed in recent decades, and railroad land now comes under Federal Law which makes it an offence to be on the land, even if you are a long way from the line. There are no fences in the wids and some forms of fencing in urban and semi-urban areas.

Increasing train speeds have raised the risk to casual and indeed regular users, as has the use of personal stereo / MP3 / radio headsets and there are many documented incidents where people wearing them have been struck by trains. Permitting or turning a "blind-eye" to trespassing on the railroad has introduced the concept of the railroad assuming a much higher level of responsibility and liability towards trespassers who are wearing such equipment. It has also translated onto those who are less well mentally capable, as well as the aged, the drunk, drug-users, etc, etc.

Unfortunately the influence of American culuture (or should that be sub-culture maybe ??) being what it is, the concept of liability is so well ensconsed into the US society, that this is permeating outwards and influencing other Countries, especially those that are developing. The Claim Culture provides a good career for lawyers, and compensation offers those without anything the chance of bringing about life-changing opportunities.

There is also what amounts almost to a paranoia about a terrorist attack against the railroad system at Governmental level, and thus the Homeland Security Agency has been pressurising railroads into tackling trespass - for obvious reasons.

World-wide there is evidence of the rise of what I would call a sickness in society - an attitude of disrespect to authority and this can manifest itself in ways such as interference or damage to the trackside equipment, or even the obstruction of the lines. One of the railroads I work for has a big problem with indigenous people, who regularly use opportunity to obstruct the railroad as a means of exerting pressure on the State Government.

The increasing movement of goods by train, especially in the New World as well as the former Soviet Union and the developing world means that train delays can cause many problems, and a simple fatality can stand the railway for many hours whilst the local civillian Police investigate and collect evidence. Then there are the costs involved with the clean-up, train crew relief, sickness absence, and sometimes the losss of experienced drivers who no longer wish to go back on the footplate.

One of my client railroads is operating a clockface timetable of iron-ore trains which are just part of a massive production line. As one 3 mile long train is loaded. the next is arriving on the tail lamp. The whole seaport and deepsea shipping operation is based on trains discharging directly to the ship's hold, and like the train as soon as it is full, there is another empty bulk ore carrier standing outside the berth.

Delays on this railroad, whether through interference with lineside equipment, fatalities, or just delays caused by trespassers can have an enormous impact on the whole operation. With each trainload generating several million in local currency, you can see why their response is with an armed military-style Police force. Go to one of their yards and within minutes you will be surrounded by men with guns and high powered rifles loaded and happy to take you down if they think you are a threat.

Another railroad is moving millions of tonnes of bulk grain, and some very high value cargoes through some rough areas. They will respond with armed helicopter units and will shoot to kill anyone who appears to be running away or attempting evasion. I kid you not.

Whilst many of these examples dont apply to the UK they do however give an indication of the nature of thinking, even if the UK is on a lower scale.

 

[bnm]

I wouldn't advocate walking on the ECML, but on minor lines, where trains are slow and audible

And what if you are not fleet of foot and/or slightly mutton?

Still OK? Use the railways as a right of way if you are physically fit, quick witted and have perfect hearing, but otherwise not. That's discrimination you know. And what about wheelchair access? Surely folks like tonyaryan deserve the right to use railways as a public right of way as well.

 

[Username]

As has been mentioned before on this forum, there are large swathes of the continent where railways are unfenced. However, we do not hear of large numbers of continentals being mown down. So, what is the difference? IMHO, this country traditionally ran along the lines of "if it's not forbidden, you can do it", whereas the continental way has been "you can only do it if you are allowed to" (OK, huge generalisation, I know, but historically valid). However, over the last couple of decades, I have seen something in the British way eroded. It used to work because you could rely on most people to have common sense, enough to add "taking due care" after "you can do it". It is this sense of "taking care", and acting responsibly, that has been shrinking. Whether this is as a result of, or the cause of, more H&S rules is up for debate.

Perhaps the reason we tend not to hear about large numbers of continentals being mown down is because, on an individual basis at least, it's just not that newsworthy?

There was the Spanish incident not that long ago which did make the news over here, though probably only due to the scale involved:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ed-as-train-hits-festival-goers-in-Spain.html

The World Health Organisation compiles statistics on everything it would seem - including the incidences of pedestrians injured in collisions with rail vehicles. The lastest figures seem a trifle outdated (2004) but for anyone interested the figures are here:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/m...i_veh-injured-collision-railway-train-vehicle

That page shows the totals but it can be changed to show per capita instead.

 

[RPM]

Well I think it is safe to say that those W.H.O. statistics completely vindicate the UK attitude to rail trespass!

Suicides are one thing, but hitting someone who didn't set out to end their life is just that little but worse from a driver's perspective. I've had two colleagues in the last few weeks who have experienced this; in both cases it was someone taking a short cut across the track at a station, rather than using the footbridge. There is no way of phsically preventing these things happening so the only option is education.

 

[NSEFAN]

Didn't BR show vids in schools for a while? I've heard of these awareness classes, but never seen any material used. I'm told they were quite shocking for the kids, which is probably the best way to show the reality of getting hit by a train.

 

[Kernowfem]

Didn't BR show vids in schools for a while? I've heard of these awareness classes, but never seen any material used. I'm told they were quite shocking for the kids, which is probably the best way to show the reality of getting hit by a train.

Indeed they did. Infact i remember the video quite well. A boy called robbie taking a short cut back from football training....lost both his legs after getting his boots trapped in the rail and instead of leaving them, he tried pulling them free and got mullered as a result.

From what i remember i saw the video in 1989 and it scared the life out of me. They used to work in the old days, but i doubt it would have much effect on some of todays youth. Its all about that 'buzz' and for some reason railways are THE place to get one.

On a slightly lighter note in regard to such a serious subject, i read a story in the book 'crossing the line' A driver alarmed at seeing a man in camo gear carrying what appeared to be a rocket propelled grenade walking lineside, contacted the official authorities....

When police went to investigate they found him to be carrying a didgeridoo.....

However someone failed to inform the driver of this and on his return journey encountered the same guy, he again contacted the authorities....i believe several delays followed as a result

 

[Wyvern]

Didn't BR show vids in schools for a while? I've heard of these awareness classes, but never seen any material used. I'm told they were quite shocking for the kids, which is probably the best way to show the reality of getting hit by a train.

They were made by British Transport Films and are now in the archives of the British Film Institute.

The first was called "The Finishing Line" and was so graphic it could only be shown under closely controlled conditions. Nevertherless it was also shown by both BBC and ITV.

This was followed in 1979 by "Robbie" was overseen by a steering group of educationalists and was in three versions - for Third rail, OHLE and non-electrified areas.

It was remade in 1986 substituting Keith Chegwin for Peter Purves.

Both are available on a DVD from the BFI :

British Transport Films Volume 7: The Age of the Train Price £10.99

 

[bnm]

"Robbie", part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx67rr8B7dk

"Robbie", part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBDqZp5hDQA

"The Finishing Line" (excerpt):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXGqwCbeFD8&feature=related.

I saw both of these videos in primary school at the age of 10 in 1983. Scared the bejesus out of me!