Treatment of Fatalities?

[Harpo]

I've dealt with 7 in my career - my colleagues seem to think I'm remarkably unlucky as most of them haven't had one!

I’ve known MOMs into 3 figures on site attendance.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Nobody should be encouraged to return to work before they are ready.

I totally agree.

I've dealt with 7 in my career - my colleagues seem to think I'm remarkably unlucky as most of them haven't had one!

Good lord - I am so sorry. That is a lot. So sad.

 

[12LDA28C]

I've dealt with 7 in my career - my colleagues seem to think I'm remarkably unlucky as most of them haven't had one!

Jesus, that's unbelieveable. And you're still driving? Some would have handed their key back by now and said enough is enough.

 

[skyhigh]

As long as you have done your job properly and you couldn’t have prevented the death, it should be deep breath and back to work.

As we used to say: if you can’t take it you shouldn’t have taken the job.

I honestly don't think I have the words to describe how I feel if you think that should be the current attitude.

And yes, I've had 2 fatalities. One was the 'classic' (as much as you can describe it that way). The other was essentially a freak accident involving a foot crossing.

I could have done sod all about either. In the second case, I decided after a short period that I was ready to return to work. As a result of the return to work medical, I was diagnosed with PTSD and wasn't allowed to resume work. I was off for about 6 months in the end, a large period of that included twice weekly sessions with a trained trauma practitioner.

I felt I was ready to go back - but I wasn't. If I'd have a taken a deep breath and gone back, it would have seriously damaged my mental health in the long run and probably lead to safety of the line incidents.

But hey, I couldn't hack it so shouldn't have taken the job. Fair enough I suppose

 

[nolypops83]

Forty years ago when I was a signalman I had someone jump off a bridge and hit the headcode box of passing express before being thrown into the cess. I saw this while at the levers and, after carrying out the necessary actions, had to go down to the body to check for signs of life, of which there were definitely none. Had this been at the end of the shift I would probably have been paid overtime at the standard rate if I needed to stay on and I would have been paid for the time at standard railway rate if I had been called to the coroner’s inquest, but that was it. (The incident happened early in a late shift and I was not called.) I did not and would not expect to be paid any money except what I was due for the hours worked.

I suppose that if I had asked to be relieved at the time or asked for a day or two off this would have been allowed, but that never even crossed my mind. Now, it is true that I worked with people who had served in World War II and getting on with the job was the norm, but I feel there is something wrong here. I can understand relieving someone immediately after such an incident, but I do feel that really ought to be it. The possibility of one under is something that any driver ought to realise might happen and be prepared to deal with. As long as you have done your job properly and you couldn’t have prevented the death, it should be deep breath and back to work.

As we used to say: if you can’t take it you shouldn’t have taken the job.

I have no doubt that some people will say that I am callous and unfeeling, and that the job has changed. People may have changed, death hasn’t.

Just out of interest as someone looking to get into this line of work, how would I know if I was prepared to deal with this sort of thing? I'm not having a go, I'm just interested to know how you think this would actually work. Sure I'm aware that if I was to get the job there's a possibility it could happen, but how could I possibly know how I might react? And if it did happen and I didn't go straight back to work then do I get fired?

About the War - My Grandad served in WWII in Burma. He might have "got on with the job" at the time but he never got over it. Nowadays it would have been recognised as PTSD but when I was a kid it was "Grandad was fighting in the war in his sleep again last night" and a lifelong fear of flying. He didn't talk about his experiences but now I've researched his army history a bit more I know why. He wasn't the only one and we should never forget the mental toll it takes on those who served. He may have come back in one piece physically, but the mental scars ran deep.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2025 ==

I've dealt with 7 in my career - my colleagues seem to think I'm remarkably unlucky as most of them haven't had one!

Gosh that's awful. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that.

 

[Horizon22]

Just out of interest as someone looking to get into this line of work, how would I know if I was prepared to deal with this sort of thing? I'm not having a go, I'm just interested to know how you think this would actually work. Sure I'm aware that if I was to get the job there's a possibility it could happen, but how could I possibly know how I might react? And if it did happen and I didn't go straight back to work then do I get fired?

I think the point they were trying to make was that "40 years ago that's how things were dealt with". It's a rather outdated and thankfully rapidly diminishing viewpoint on how trauma is dealt with. And certainly isn't how any TOC or FOC would deal with it today.

 

[12LDA28C]

Just out of interest as someone looking to get into this line of work, how would I know if I was prepared to deal with this sort of thing? I'm not having a go, I'm just interested to know how you think this would actually work. Sure I'm aware that if I was to get the job there's a possibility it could happen, but how could I possibly know how I might react? And if it did happen and I didn't go straight back to work then do I get fired?

You should seriously consider it insofar as you are able to. I applied for a driver's job many years ago and in the interview I was asked exactly that question - how did I think I would react to having someone jump in front of my train? I answered it as best I could, having previously had no experience in this area.

Of course you wouldn't get 'fired' if you didn't go straight back to work. Everyone is different and copes differently with trauma. Support from colleagues, management, friends and family is key and professional counselling is available if required. Nobody should feel pressured to return to work before they are ready.

 

[nolypops83]

I think the point they were trying to make was that "40 years ago that's how things were dealt with". It's a rather outdated and thankfully rapidly diminishing viewpoint on how trauma is dealt with. And certainly isn't how any TOC or FOC would deal with it today.

Absolutely, I'm just trying to point out the flaw in the logic. If that was genuinely the attitude, how on earth could you possibly expect anyone to know this about themselves or test for it? Make them watch clips of train fatalities and see if they cry? That's a facetious comment, but you get what I mean hopefully.

You should seriously consider it insofar as you are able to. I applied for a driver's job many years ago and in the interview I was asked exactly that question - how did I think I would react to having someone jump in front of my train? I answered it as best I could, having previously had no experience in this area.

Of course you wouldn't get 'fired' if you didn't go straight back to work. Everyone is different and copes differently with trauma. Support from colleagues, management, friends and family is key and professional counselling is available if required. Nobody should feel pressured to return to work before they are ready.

I definitely have, not to the point of obsession as it might never happen, but I've accepted that it's a possibility.

 

[PaulMac]

Slightly off the topic of payment and leave, can I sensitively ask, how common is this type of situation. Suicide or other fatalities on the track?

Thanks

I believe Michael Portillo on one of his shows states that a Bombay suburban train driver has on average eight fatalities a year.

I don’t know how they cope.

 

[GadgetMan]

I believe Michael Portillo on one of his shows states that a Bombay suburban train driver has on average eight fatalities a year.

I don’t know how they cope.

I'm sure its traumatic for them too, however most people on that side of the world have different levels of sensitivity to us over here.

As a child, when we visited my mums family in Pakistan, my grand ma took me to the local market and asked me to pick a chicken from the cage. I thought we were going to take it home to keep as a pet. Didn't realise it was to be that evenings dinner. 40 years later that image is still stuck with me, whereas for them it's a daily occurrence.

Without wanting to get too graphic, seeing the 'poor' dead on the streets and stepping over them and carrying on with their daily lives is also perfectly normal there. Whereas we'd behave very differently here (apart from the idiots who like to get their mobile phones out and start recording instead).

 

[Neatro]

Just out of interest as someone looking to get into this line of work, how would I know if I was prepared to deal with this sort of thing? I'm not having a go, I'm just interested to know how you think this would actually work. Sure I'm aware that if I was to get the job there's a possibility it could happen, but how could I possibly know how I might react? And if it did happen and I didn't go straight back to work then do I get fired?

As someone who's dealt with a fatality already in a previous role, you don't and won't know how it affects you until it happens.

Everyone deals with it differently, I had one day off and figured if I didn't go back I never would, and others have had months off or never came back.

The most you can do is know that it's a possibility.

 

[43066]

To be clear (as if it really needed clarifying) it's not my viewpoint but I was quoting someone who stated that their employer paid 'an incentive' which was a very poor choice of words as clearly a post-fatality payment in not any kind of 'incentive' and is more in relation to compensation for the trauma caused, but I still disagree with it, and declined it after my own incident.

I read that post as suggesting the incentive was to return to work - not sure I necessarily agree with that in principle - the payment should be to ensure there’s no financial pressure when they’re off, per my next paragraph:

Rectifying loss of earnings on a case-by-case basis makes sense to me including assessing longer term impacts where they happen.

A flat rate payment seems wrong to me as (my view) it becomes about the deceased and not the affected employee and doesn’t reflect the huge range of impacts that fatalities have on employees.

Rather than being a specific amount, I can see a case for (for example) making payments while the person is off equal to average earnings including overtime worked, in a similar way to holiday uplift pay. That way those who do a lot of overtime won’t be impacted, or more likely to return prematurely due to the financial pressure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2025 ==

I definitely have, not to the point of obsession as it might never happen, but I've accepted that it's a possibility.

As above, this is really the best you can be expected to do. Everyone reacts slightly differently, and each fatality has its own unique set of circumstances. Fingers crossed it will never happen.

 

[PaulMac]

I’ve just dealt with an incident myself, hence the initial question.

Thanks everyone for the civilised and sensible discussion.

 

[43066]

I’ve just dealt with an incident myself, hence the initial question.

Thanks everyone for the civilised and sensible discussion.

Sorry to hear that - take all the time you need and be sure to avail yourself of the counselling offered. Management will (and should) generally be supportive in my experience.

 

[PaulMac]

Sorry to hear that - take all the time you need and be sure to avail yourself of the counselling offered. Management will (and should) generally be supportive in my experience.

Thanks. I’ve taken calls from three layers of upper management so far, and all told me - empathically - to take as long as need. It was a pleasant surprise.

 

[D3WY]

I've dealt with 7 in my career - my colleagues seem to think I'm remarkably unlucky as most of them haven't had one!

As a trainee most my instructors have had 1 or 2 incidents, alot of the drivers I have spoken to have aswell, unfortunately seems to be all too regular. Our instructors have been pretty blunt and said we may never have a incident we may have many.

I'm coming into the job fully aware it's a strong possibility it may happen one day. All we can do is prepare for the worse.

 

[LowLevel]

Thanks. I’ve taken calls from three layers of upper management so far, and all told me - empathically - to take as long as need. It was a pleasant surprise.

That's good to hear. To be fair my experience of potentially traumatic incidents has been similar, I've never had any complaints. I once had the on call "gold" manager (so head of function) ring me up once I'd finished sorting out an incident asking after me and my driver and authorising me (followed up in writing by text message!) to use my float from my ticket machine to get us a Chinese from a takeaway she'd found down the road from the station we were at whilst waiting for a relief driver and fitter!

 

[AverageJoe]

I honestly don't think I have the words to describe how I feel if you think that should be the current attitude.

And yes, I've had 2 fatalities. One was the 'classic' (as much as you can describe it that way). The other was essentially a freak accident involving a foot crossing.

I could have done sod all about either. In the second case, I decided after a short period that I was ready to return to work. As a result of the return to work medical, I was diagnosed with PTSD and wasn't allowed to resume work. I was off for about 6 months in the end, a large period of that included twice weekly sessions with a trained trauma practitioner.

I felt I was ready to go back - but I wasn't. If I'd have a taken a deep breath and gone back, it would have seriously damaged my mental health in the long run and probably lead to safety of the line incidents.

But hey, I couldn't hack it so shouldn't have taken the job. Fair enough I suppose

It’s great to see the it was taken seriously and your health was the priority.

I’ve never had a fatality but as you can imagine most of my colleagues have and some very recently.
Im of the opinion that I will take a decent chunk of time off even if I feel fine because the effect of the situation can take some time to show itself as you noticed with yourself.

 

[whoosh]

Forty years ago when I was a signalman I had someone jump off a bridge and hit the headcode box of passing express before being thrown into the cess. I saw this while at the levers and, after carrying out the necessary actions, had to go down to the body to check for signs of life, of which there were definitely none. Had this been at the end of the shift I would probably have been paid overtime at the standard rate if I needed to stay on and I would have been paid for the time at standard railway rate if I had been called to the coroner’s inquest, but that was it. (The incident happened early in a late shift and I was not called.) I did not and would not expect to be paid any money except what I was due for the hours worked.

I suppose that if I had asked to be relieved at the time or asked for a day or two off this would have been allowed, but that never even crossed my mind. Now, it is true that I worked with people who had served in World War II and getting on with the job was the norm, but I feel there is something wrong here. I can understand relieving someone immediately after such an incident, but I do feel that really ought to be it. The possibility of one under is something that any driver ought to realise might happen and be prepared to deal with. As long as you have done your job properly and you couldn’t have prevented the death, it should be deep breath and back to work.

As we used to say: if you can’t take it you shouldn’t have taken the job.

I have no doubt that some people will say that I am callous and unfeeling, and that the job has changed. People may have changed, death hasn’t.

You may hark back to the days of 'just get on with it', but I'm afraid things have moved on. They didn't have a black box recording their every move back then. You are expected to not make the slightest mistake these days (no more 'squaring it up between you'). You have to be top of your game all the time. Anything like absent minded opening the doors the wrong side because your mind has wandered to the angry face imprinted on your mind before hitting them at the foot crossing you've just passed, is likely going to lead to the question, "Well why did you come back so early, when you could've taken some time off to properly recover?"

And if someone had fallen out when you released the doors the wrong side, that would be what their lawyer would ask as well.

Times have changed, and your mental wellbeing is something you need to consider when signing on as 'fit for duty'.

Slightly off the topic of payment and leave, can I sensitively ask, how common is this type of situation. Suicide or other fatalities on the track?

Thanks

Have a read of this, all at the same company, and most at the same depot:

The driver's view: 'The memory of a rail suicide never leaves you'

Not a driver, but once witnessed a suicide at Werrington Jct, just North of PBO in 1988... Was actually coming home on my pushbike, and approached the "crossing" - as there's now a Green Bridge there... - and looking left and right, saw a HST approaching from the South, so I stopped, raised my...

www.railforums.co.uk

I’ve just dealt with an incident myself, hence the initial question.

Thanks everyone for the civilised and sensible discussion.

I'm very sorry to hear that. I wish you well in your recovery and 'getting back in the saddle' when you feel able.
You may have been given a booklet ('Journey to Recovery') about coping with a railway fatality. 'Driver H' from the above thread is featured in it, if you've got it.

 

[Mag_seven]

I think this is as good a place as any to draw this emotive subject to a close. It's clear that as time has evolved attitudes and reactions to such incidents have changed for the better.

thanks all