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TrawsCymru T22 connections

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markymark2000

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New T22 timetable is now live and it's about as tragic as we thought it would be for connections between the bus and trains.
Link to the main TrawsCymru page. To download the timetable either change the date or go to 'select a PDF' and download the PDF there)

Monday-Friday, heading north, the only connection is the 05:40 from Porthmadog which links into the 06:24 train from Blaenau. Other trips have a connection of up to 55 minutes between bus and train.
Monday-Friday heading south, all trips have a connection between 40 and 50 minutes
Saturdays heading north, you have the 05:40 from Porthmadog which links into the 06:24 train from Blaenau. You also have the 14:00 bus from Porthmadog which links to the 14:56 train from Blaenau. Other trips are a 40-55 minute connection
Saturdays heading south, all trips have a connection between 40 and 50 minutes.
Sundays heading north, 14:00 bus from Ysbyty Alltwen Hospital provides a connection onto the 14:56 train from Blaenau. Otherwise be prepared for a long wait.
Sundays heading south, no connections at all except the last train of the day, arrives into Blaenau 20:16, bus leaves at 20:45. Other trips, expect a connection of up to 2 hours.


What makes it worse is on Sundays, there is a 17:17 train arrival, the bus leaves at 17:15! TrawsCymru was supposedly set up to be a distance network filling in gaps with trains but done to provide connections with trains.
 
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greenline712

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New T22 timetable is now live and it's about as tragic as we thought it would be for connections between the bus and trains.
Link to the main TrawsCymru page. To download the timetable either change the date or go to 'select a PDF' and download the PDF there)

Monday-Friday, heading north, the only connection is the 05:40 from Porthmadog which links into the 06:24 train from Blaenau. Other trips have a connection of up to 55 minutes between bus and train.
Monday-Friday heading south, all trips have a connection between 40 and 50 minutes
Saturdays heading north, you have the 05:40 from Porthmadog which links into the 06:24 train from Blaenau. You also have the 14:00 bus from Porthmadog which links to the 14:56 train from Blaenau. Other trips are a 40-55 minute connection
Saturdays heading south, all trips have a connection between 40 and 50 minutes.
Sundays heading north, 14:00 bus from Ysbyty Alltwen Hospital provides a connection onto the 14:56 train from Blaenau. Otherwise be prepared for a long wait.
Sundays heading south, no connections at all except the last train of the day, arrives into Blaenau 20:16, bus leaves at 20:45. Other trips, expect a connection of up to 2 hours.


What makes it worse is on Sundays, there is a 17:17 train arrival, the bus leaves at 17:15! TrawsCymru was supposedly set up to be a distance network filling in gaps with trains but done to provide connections with trains.

I think you are being unduly harsh in your comments. In any interconnecting network, such as TrawsCymru, it is always going to be the case that some putative connections cannot be made. Just looking at the Sunday timetable for Route T22 . . . there is a 2-hourly service connecting with a 2-hourly service at Porthmadog on Route T2, which also connects with a 2-hourly service on Route T3 at Dolgellau.
The connections at Dolgellau are within a 10 minute window at Eldon Square (4 buses there must be fun!). The connections at Porthmadog between T22 and T2 are similarly 10 minutes, although the T2 only pauses for 5 minutes.

So, the following interconnecting journeys are possible: Blaenau Ffestiniog towards Caernarfon and towards Aberystwyth, and towards Wrecsam and Abermaw by changing again at Dolgellau. I think that's pretty darn good!! If the price for all that is that a connection at Bl. Ffestiniog with a 3-hourly train service isn't met . . . good trade off! In any case . . . quite how a 2-hourly bus service is supposed to connect effectively with a 3-hourly train service.

It is also the case that Caelloi's Route 3 doesn't connect at Porthmadog . . . again, with Caelloi running (on Sundays) every 2 hours 10 minutes . . . good luck connecting reliably with that!

Looking at the weekday timetables . . . again, the timetable for Route T22 has to fit around the timetable for Route T2, which has to connect with Route T3 at Dolgellau. Unless all these timetables are adjusted substantially, then connecting at Bl. Ffestiniog with the train is always going to be difficult. I haven't checked any other connections along these routes, but there may well be others that would require attention.

So . . . in summary, I reckon that the TrawsCymru timetabling team have done quite well, nay, VERY well, in this part of Wales. Yes . . . it's been a while coming, but these things do take considerable time, especially when having to consider the effect on other services, and talking with the relevant LTAs. My only reservation is with summer road traffics, and connecting allowances . . . but time will tell.
 

RELL6L

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I think you are being unduly harsh in your comments. In any interconnecting network, such as TrawsCymru, it is always going to be the case that some putative connections cannot be made. Just looking at the Sunday timetable for Route T22 . . . there is a 2-hourly service connecting with a 2-hourly service at Porthmadog on Route T2, which also connects with a 2-hourly service on Route T3 at Dolgellau.
The connections at Dolgellau are within a 10 minute window at Eldon Square (4 buses there must be fun!). The connections at Porthmadog between T22 and T2 are similarly 10 minutes, although the T2 only pauses for 5 minutes.

So, the following interconnecting journeys are possible: Bl. Ffestiniog towards Caernarfon and towards Aberystwyth, and towards Wrecsam and Abermaw by changing again at Dolgellau. I think that's pretty darn good!! If the price for all that is that a connection at Bl. Ffestiniog with a 3-hourly train service isn't met . . . good trade off! In any case . . . quite how a 2-hourly bus service is supposed to connect effectively with a 3-hourly train service . . . well, you tell me!

It is also the case that Caelloi's Route 3 doesn't connect at Porthmadog . . . again, with Caelloi running (on Sundays) every 2 hours 10 minutes . . . good luck connecting reliably with that!

Looking at the weekday timetables . . . again, the timetable for Route T22 has to fit around the timetable for Route T2, which has to connect with Route T3 at Dolgellau. Unless all these timetables are adjusted substantially, then connecting at Bl. Ffestiniog with the train is always going to be difficult. I haven't checked any other connections along these routes, but there may well be others that would require attention.

So . . . in summary, I reckon that the TrawsCymru timetabling team have done quite well, nay, VERY well, in this part of Wales. Yes . . . it's been a while coming, but these things do take considerable time, especially when having to consider the effect on other services, and talking with the relevant LTAs. My only reservation is with summer road traffics, and connecting allowances . . . but time will tell.
I agree entirely. The connections at Porthmadog seem well planned to allow these opportunities. It is a shame Caelloi do not run the 3 at a straight hourly interval being at Porthmadog around the hour, then it would connect with everything. But with only the one service that would not be very efficient for them.

Connections at Blaenau would be good but would there be much connection here? It would be better if there was a 2-hourly T19 connecting there as originally envisaged.

The cancellations of some Lloyds services next month look concerning but hopefully they are just changes from retender or something. Gwynedd are usually pretty good at putting up timetables, as are Lloyds, so we should see soon. I hope Lloyds haven't lost work as I consider them to be a quality operator.

Its a real contrast in Wales at the moment with cuts in lots of places due to lack of funding, but a gold-plated Trawscymru service on certain corridors with expensive electric buses and depots on routes not ideally suited to them (surely city routes would be better, more buses per depot, more time stationery and at slow speeds, scope to swap out if charge low, lower air quality etc) and also odd improvements in places like Wrexham.
 

markymark2000

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I think you are being unduly harsh in your comments. In any interconnecting network, such as TrawsCymru, it is always going to be the case that some putative connections cannot be made. Just looking at the Sunday timetable for Route T22 . . . there is a 2-hourly service connecting with a 2-hourly service at Porthmadog on Route T2, which also connects with a 2-hourly service on Route T3 at Dolgellau.
You seem to have used the Sunday timetable as the way to build a case that the T22 timetable is good! It's worth noting that connections between the T22 and T2 can be made at any stop between Oakley Arms and Porthmadog. Oakley Arms is a connection point and it was the case that Lloyds used to have this as a connection between the T2 and 35 (Doll - Blaenau) to fill in gaps in the 3B timetable.

The connections at Dolgellau are within a 10 minute window at Eldon Square (4 buses there must be fun!). The connections at Porthmadog between T22 and T2 are similarly 10 minutes, although the T2 only pauses for 5 minutes.
Yeah, Dolgellau is wonderful when it is rammed with buses. Completely inaccessible for less able people as it always means buses loading in the middle of the road. 100% safest way of working and best practice!

So, the following interconnecting journeys are possible: Bl. Ffestiniog towards Caernarfon and towards Aberystwyth, and towards Wrecsam and Abermaw by changing again at Dolgellau. I think that's pretty darn good!!
Blaenau to Caernarfon is already a connection as the T22 runs through.
Blaenau to Aberystwyth and Wrexham, Woohoo, connections but how many people are making this journey! Almost nil! You are satisfying one or two people but not accommodating a lot of other peoples journeys. This area has huge links to North West England, connections onto trains at Blaenau to make connections onto the North Wales Coast at Llandudno Junction will be significantly more popular than people going Blaenau to Wrexham via Porthmadog and Dolgellau.

Barmouth passengers will eventually change in Porthmadog onto the G23 which is set to be introduced on Sundays. That should be quicker. Alternatively, connections onto trains at Porthmadog or Minffordd (or Penrhyn if people walk down the hill). Peoples journey of choice is not going to the T22 to Port, T2 to Dol, T3 to Barmouth.

If the price for all that is that a connection at Bl. Ffestiniog with a 3-hourly train service isn't met . . . good trade off! In any case . . . quite how a 2-hourly bus service is supposed to connect effectively with a 3-hourly train service . . . well, you tell me!
You can't make ever train link up on Sundays, more can be done though such as the 17:44 train arrives, the bus leaves 17:43. During the week however, the T22 is hourly and a lot more bus-train and train-bus connections could be made if they cared enough to do it.

It is also the case that Caelloi's Route 3 doesn't connect at Porthmadog . . . again, with Caelloi running (on Sundays) every 2 hours 10 minutes . . . good luck connecting reliably with that!
Caellois 3 on a Sunday is a Gwynedd tender. The service is quite clearly built to be a 1 bus, 1 driver tender so accommodates breaks which makes it harder for the service. Some people value taxpayers money and therefore try to make a service efficient rather than throw it down the drain on satisfying connections for people to not make. It would be good to extend the Caelloi 3 to Blaenau on Sundays as that would give them the stable frequency and make things easier but that is unlikely to happen just yet.

Looking at the weekday timetables . . . again, the timetable for Route T22 has to fit around the timetable for Route T2, which has to connect with Route T3 at Dolgellau. Unless all these timetables are adjusted substantially, then connecting at Bl. Ffestiniog with the train is always going to be difficult. I haven't checked any other connections along these routes, but there may well be others that would require attention.
So you are prioritising connections over journeys that people actually make. It's yet another example, like the T3 changes, of TrawsCymrus team prioritising connections which people aren't making, over giving people journeys that they actually want to make! You shall only make journeys that the Welsh Govt want you to make, not make journeys that you want to make because the staff employed by the Welsh Govt refuse to timetable bus services so that it works for peoples actual journey patterns.

So . . . in summary, I reckon that the TrawsCymru timetabling team have done quite well, nay, VERY well, in this part of Wales. Yes . . . it's been a while coming, but these things do take considerable time, especially when having to consider the effect on other services, and talking with the relevant LTAs. My only reservation is with summer road traffics, and connecting allowances . . . but time will tell.
Takes considerable time, don't we know it. The buses have been parked up for 2 years nearly, the timetable was written 2 years ago (with all of the connections as it was already planned for the T2/T3 timetables to change). The tender went out 18 months ago. The service has been delayed multiple times due to various failings within TrawsCymru. 'Talking with the relevant LTAs', you mean the one single authority that it runs through! Gwynedd.

And despite all of that, the service is not only going to cost taxpayers the cost of this actual service but it will also cost an additional school (£30-£40k per year) because exactly as per the T2/T3, someone wants to create a pretty timetable using Excels click and drag function rather than accommodate passenger flows, in this case, schools. The Lloyds 3B timetable accommodated Ysgol Y Moelwyn flows. Blaenau will also lose a Sunday service as the 1S currently interworks onto the 37 so sadly that will be a service reduction. All so that people in an office in Pontypridd can make a pretty timetable with nice little connections in Porthmadog. We slate Arriva for their centralisation and yet here Gwynedd residents are having their timetables dictated to them by Pontypridd, 100 miles away, by people who can't accommodate normal passenger flows, can't accommodate school flows and can't make train connections work despite the literal point of TrawsCymru being to fill the gaps left in the train network and make it easy for people to connect between bus and train.


The cancellations of some Lloyds services next month look concerning but hopefully they are just changes from retender or something. Gwynedd are usually pretty good at putting up timetables, as are Lloyds, so we should see soon. I hope Lloyds haven't lost work as I consider them to be a quality operator.
Gwynedd put tenders out last month so it will be related to that. https://www.sell2wales.gov.wales/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=NOV457168. More info could be given but I'll wait until someone starts a Gwynedd or Lloyds thread.

Its a real contrast in Wales at the moment with cuts in lots of places due to lack of funding, but a gold-plated Trawscymru service on certain corridors with expensive electric buses and depots on routes not ideally suited to them (surely city routes would be better, more buses per depot, more time stationery and at slow speeds, scope to swap out if charge low, lower air quality etc) and also odd improvements in places like Wrexham.
Cuts to buses in Wales are due to the huge cuts in funding from the Welsh Govt. They are taking from private operators and councils to instead pump it into the TrawsCymru bus network. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul.
 

greenline712

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On weekdays, every other T22 runs to Caernarfon, with the gaps filled by T2 journeys. For this reason, as I obviously didn't make clear enough, the timings of the T22 service are pretty much fixed. To improve the train connections at Blaenau Ffestiniog would require the T22 journeys to be moved by about 30 minutes. That would require the T2 timings to be moved by 30 minutes, which will require the T3 timings to be moved by 30 minutes. THAT was my point.

I may have missed something, but Route G23 doesn't run via Oakley Arms any more, but across the Pont Briwet, so the connection hub, more than ever, is at Porthmadog. In point of fact, the G23 timetable is the connection problem in a microcosm . . . a 5 minute connection at Abermaw gives long connections at Porthmadog. To fix that would require Route T3 to be adjusted . . . and we're back at the original problem again.
Regarding the connection between the T22 and T2 at Oakley Arms, yes, of course, that connection is possible but how would that help?
How would YOU timetable Route T22? Bear in mind that the T22 improves the service between Porthmadog and Bl. Ffestiniog from irregular (3B) to hourly (T22).

I suggested connections towards Dolgellau; Aberystwyth and so on. The whole point about interconnecting services is that all sorts of new journey possibilities are opened up. I've no idea which new journeys will be made with these new connections, but they are at least possible now.

I don't know why the T22 has taken so long . . . problems with power supply for the buses, perhaps? In London 5 electric deckers "browned out" most of Willesden if they were charged together! Sometimes stuff just doesn't happen in good time . . .
 

GusB

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Please note that posts 1-5 have been split from this thread:

Before the discussion goes any further, I'd like to remind everyone of the requirement to be respectful when posting; we don't mind a bit of robust debate, but please keep it civil. :)
 

nwales58

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T22 has taken ages because of
a) the abortive Tanygrisiau stabling point (my guess is because sufficient amps were available across the road thanks to Rehau) where the planning consent failed
b) standard British ‘let’s write a contract’ expecting unrealistically someone to take the risk of getting the base working as well as operating the fleet
c) lack of capacity in Gwynedd and TfW thanks to the last 20 years of squeezing public bodies so they cannot be 100% on top of what they are procuring.

I don’t know the inside story so others could know better.

If anyone involved is reading this, I am not criticising you. I sympathise with the mismatch between what we are trying to achieve and the institutional realities.

Edit: removed rest of rant.
 
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markymark2000

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On weekdays, every other T22 runs to Caernarfon, with the gaps filled by T2 journeys. For this reason, as I obviously didn't make clear enough, the timings of the T22 service are pretty much fixed. To improve the train connections at Blaenau Ffestiniog would require the T22 journeys to be moved by about 30 minutes. That would require the T2 timings to be moved by 30 minutes, which will require the T3 timings to be moved by 30 minutes. THAT was my point.
The times between Porthmadog and Caernarfon are fixed. There is no reason at all for Blaenau - Porthmadog to be linked to the Porthmadog - Caernarfon section. Through passengers are minimal and the split is something which has worked for many years without complaint as it works.

I may have missed something, but Route G23 doesn't run via Oakley Arms any more, but across the Pont Briwet, so the connection hub, more than ever, is at Porthmadog. In point of fact, the G23 timetable is the connection problem in a microcosm . . . a 5 minute connection at Abermaw gives long connections at Porthmadog. To fix that would require Route T3 to be adjusted . . . and we're back at the original problem again.
I didn't say the G23 runs via Oakley Arms so I think you may have misread. I said about T22 and T2 connections at Oakley Arms. The connection between the G23 and T22 would be either Porthmadog, Minfordd or Penrhyn and walk down the hill to the train station.

Because of how much is timetabled to work together, it creates a huge issue whereby times are locked in and so connections can't be made with buses not part of the network and trains which have times which constantly vary. There has to be a cut off somewhere and that is where the T22 takes the biscuit To have the T22 as it is, to amend that times you'd need to adjust the T2. Then means adjusting the T3 because of connections in Dolgellau. Potentially also affecting the T8 and T10 because of connections in Corwen. T1/T1C may have issues as there is a T2/T28 connection in Aberystwyth. That is a stupid amount of connections being linked up to satisfy the almost zero people making the connections in most cases (T2/T3 in Doll are the exception as some more people do make those connections but it's still not large numbers). So people in Blaenau can't have train connections because there is so much focus on connections. Exactly as I have said.

Regarding the connection between the T22 and T2 at Oakley Arms, yes, of course, that connection is possible but how would that help?
It would open up opportunities to amend the T22 so that some connections were still possible at locations other than Porthmadog so there is more flexibility but of course that would affect the pretty timetable between Porthmadog and Caernarfon.

I suggested connections towards Dolgellau; Aberystwyth and so on. The whole point about interconnecting services is that all sorts of new journey possibilities are opened up. I've no idea which new journeys will be made with these new connections, but they are at least possible now.
That's wonderful that people CAN make the connections, meaningless though if no one is making them. T12 links up to the T4 in Newton, perhaps you would like to count how many people make those connections. Nil! Yes people can travel from Cardiff to Wrexham on the bus because of this connection, doesn't mean anyone is doing that. It's a stupid connection which exists purely because of politics and means that everyone else has to suffer a certain bus timetable which don't suit local needs all because connections are the first priority, and peoples actual journey patterns are the lowest priority.

How would YOU timetable Route T22? Bear in mind that the T22 improves the service between Porthmadog and Bl. Ffestiniog from irregular (3B) to hourly (T22).
Split the route. It works perfectly fine now as the 1 and 3B. Change the numbers and make them both TrawsCymru if you so wish, the routes don't need to be connected though. Take the key benefits of both parts of the route and let them be standalone. The Caernarfon to Porthmadog section can then provide the infil journeys to the T2, that is a good thing, I agree with them on that. The standard hourly timetable on the Blaenau side, is good but there needs to be flexibility in that pretty timetable to, accommodate the school bus flows in the area and try to make the connections onto the trains. You perhaps won't be able to meet the trains and have a standard 10 minute connection between bus and train but the more of them that you can make work without 50 odd minute connections, the better. Connections onto the other services at Porthmadog should be seen as a much lower priority as while yes the links all look good on paper, one small thing can scupper all of those links and secondly, the amount of people making connections, you are making the majority suffer to accommodate a minority. Though, that does seem to be the TFW way (in a wider sense, not limited to TrawsCymru or the T22)

Sundays, the timetable looks pretty but has the huge down side of not making connections which people want to make and so that is a tradeoff that would have to happen and before that decision was made, I'd undertake conversation with actual users as both have their benefits, I'd certainly say from my discussions and connections locally, there would be more of a push for train connections in Blaenau as much as possible, over a pretty timetable. I'd certainly hope given the quietness of the railways on Sundays, service wise, perhaps TFW would see if the Blaenau services could be retimed to make them nicer to link buses into but that would be a larger discussion to be had.
 

duncombec

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...perhaps you would like to count how many people make those connections. Nil!

Quick clarifying question: various references made to no people actually making the connections. Is this based purely on personal experience (however frequent), or do you have access to data confirming that? If so, is it publicly accessible (e.g. electronic FOI requests, Local Authority or TfW meeting papers)? I'm sure you'll appreciate it seems quite bold to claim no connections are made without some form of qualification.
(Shades of "but these double-deckers outside my house never have anybody on them... except peaks, school journeys, festival days, somewhere else on the route that isn't outside my window...")

I admit I'm a little confused by what appears to be the argument that passengers don't connect between buses, but would connect between bus and train. Or has the thrust of your argument been lost in the bluster?
 

greenline712

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Regrettably, in the splitting of the thread by the moderator, a chunk of my original text in post #5 was omitted, together with an appropriate emphasis of one phrase.

I see no point in prolonging this pain any further. You have your viewpoint .... I have mine, and we will never agree. I suggest we leave this until actual passenger numbers are known.
 

markymark2000

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Quick clarifying question: various references made to no people actually making the connections. Is this based purely on personal experience (however frequent), or do you have access to data confirming that? If so, is it publicly accessible (e.g. electronic FOI requests, Local Authority or TfW meeting papers)? I'm sure you'll appreciate it seems quite bold to claim no connections are made without some form of qualification.
(Shades of "but these double-deckers outside my house never have anybody on them... except peaks, school journeys, festival days, somewhere else on the route that isn't outside my window...")
I don't believe that there is any data publicly released on this. My comments come from lived experience seen with my own two eyes, as well as the experience of many others who I have spoken to including drivers who regularly work these routes.

I admit I'm a little confused by what appears to be the argument that passengers don't connect between buses, but would connect between bus and train. Or has the thrust of your argument been lost in the bluster?
Passengers can and do connect between buses in many areas, I am saying in this area, people aren't connecting between these buses and making the journeys being suggested. It's just a pretty timetable but does nothing to accommodate the actual flows people are making or the journeys that people want to make but currently it's too inconvenient for them (infrequent train with dismal connections onto the bus or in the case of Sundays, infrequent train linking to infrequent bus, It's never been a winning formula that)

People changing between buses and train is firstly, this was one of the things that TrawsCymru was set up for and supposedly encourages (T3 to Ruabon station, T1 to Carmarthen station, through ticket sales on the T1 to compensate for the lack of Carmarthen to Aberystwyth railway). Secondly, this is what people are calling for across the country. Plenty of surveys come back with people wanting better multi modal connections (it's something that has been called for often even on this forum) and it's proven in other areas, such as GWR land, rail linked buses work well. The Conwy Valley Line, with a proper bus connection, has the potential to massively speed up journey times for people from the north, heading to mid Gwynedd (which is quite a popular link). Sadly, due to dismal bus connections currently at Blaenau, and similarly in the proposed timetables, people are forced to go via Bangor and then slog it on the T2. A nice journey perhaps for those who have the time but for people who just want to get from A-B as quickly as possible, this is not the best option. And thanks to the poor connections to/from the Conwy Valley Line, this is simply not an option for people.

When franchising comes in, 3/3B through route (Pwllheli-Porthmadog-Blaenau) would be very popular and especially with the bus/rail connection.
 

nwales58

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The only way to get through journey data would be surveys, which cost, and as there are so few the sample would need to approach 100% for several days at several times of year. It won't happen.

To get a handle on latent demand you could knock up a crude gravity model calibrated to the existing non-connecting flows and extrapolate to connections. My gut feeling (I used to work in this field) is that if you are honest about the confidence intervals they will in each case be zero to a possible worthwhile but rather small flow, which gets you little further forward.

I'm not in TfW or Gwynedd so I don't know if there is any such modelling or data work but if there were I imagine the forecasts would have been publicised.

The T3C debacle where the T3/T3C work had not identified the student flow between the B4401 villages and Dolgellau suggests TfW were looking at ticket data alone.

BUT the original reason for TrawsCymru was not maximising user benefits, rather it was raising accessibility to longer distance public transport in areas without rail services. So the point of viable connections would be to raise the percentage of Gwynedd's population that can realistically get to work, shopping or health services in Caernarfon, Bangor or Llandudno; not whether 0,1,2 or 3 people per day might now make a Ffestiniog-Caernarfon journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

... various references made to no people actually making the connections. Is this based purely on personal experience (however frequent), or do you have access to data confirming that?

In my case, I live in Gwynedd, I use bus and train when I can.

By chance in the past few days I have used G23-3B-train and train-T2-train. A young couple also did the 10 minute Criccieth T2-train connection which was a shock as it is not summer.
 
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