Travelmasters crash M1

[notadriver]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-31469329

Three dead in coach crash with car on the M1 near Flitwick

Three people have been killed in a crash involving a coach and a car on the M1 in Bedfordshire.

The collision happened near Flitwick between junctions 12 and 13, at 06:45 GMT. The M1 is currently closed northbound between those junctions.

Three men who had been in the car have been pronounced dead. A fourth man was taken to hospital with serious injuries.

No-one in the coach was injured, police say.

Bedfordshire Police said the double-decker coach was heading north from Kent and collided with a hatchback car, which was stationary on the hard shoulder....

This company do lots of rail replacement in the south east area too. Does this raise questions on how safe bus and coach travel is generally ?

 

[Bertie the bus]

. Does this raise questions on how safe bus and coach travel is generally ?

Not really. It is a well known fact that the hard shoulder of motorways is not a safe place to be and official advice is if you need to use it don't remain in your vehicle. Nobody on the coach was injured so it doesn't really raise any questions on how safe bus travel is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not really. It is a well known fact that the hard shoulder of motorways is not a safe place to be and official advice is if you need to use it don't remain in your vehicle. Nobody on the coach was injured so it doesn't really raise any questions on how safe bus travel is.

It raises questions as to motorway safety, potentially, but not specifically bus/coach travel because any vehicle travelling at speed could have caused the same incident.

Indeed, were it a car or small minibus, the passengers may not have come off as well, so it might actually show bus/coach travel to be very safe (as it indeed is).

Neil

 

[Bertie the bus]

It doesn't raise questions about motorway safety. It doesn't raise any questions. All it does is reinforce what most people already know, i.e. don't stay in your car if you break down on a motorway.

I'm not blaming the deceased in any way but if they had vacated their car and gone the other side of the crash barrier all this would have been is a written off car and a dented coach.

 

[edwin_m]

We don't know. Who's to say the car hadn't just pulled up on the hard shoulder and the people inside didn't have time to get out?

 

[ilkestonian]

Does this raise questions on how safe bus and coach travel is generally ?

Surely the most reasonable and logical question based on the information in the quote is "When will the accident investigators have the information to determine the cause of the accident, and after that, are there any lessons to be learnt?" rather than attempt to use this unfortunate incident as a cue to speculate on its cause?

 

[user15681]

Very sad to hear people have died.

I have had safety concerns with this company more than once in the past, but I think it's best to let those investigating establish the cause and not jump to conclusions about whether the deceased could have done more to prevent their deaths. The full circumstances simply aren't known at the moment.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Not really. It is a well known fact that the hard shoulder of motorways is not a safe place to be and official advice is if you need to use it don't remain in your vehicle. Nobody on the coach was injured so it doesn't really raise any questions on how safe bus travel is.

A policeman once mentioned to me that the average time between a vehicle stopping on the hard shoulder and being rammed from behind is only 18 minutes.

 

[gazthomas]

It is really sad. Looking at pictures I think the crash happened in an area where the hard shoulder is used as an additional lane at peak times. If this was operable at the time and a vehicle had broken down but not been spotted it would have been inevitable. As I say, very sad.

 

[syorksdeano]

Latest is that the coach driver has been arrested

 

[AM9]

It is really sad. Looking at pictures I think the crash happened in an area where the hard shoulder is used as an additional lane at peak times. If this was operable at the time and a vehicle had broken down but not been spotted it would have been inevitable. As I say, very sad.

So it could have happened at any time of the M25 around the northern section where the hard shoulder has been turned into a full time extra lane. Unlike the M1 scheme, where drivers are allowed to use the hard shoulder at a lower speed when the road is congested and kicked-off as soon as somebody is unlucky enough to have to stop, on the M25, the lane displays show a red 'X' to get following traffic into the remaining lanes. So at times when a vehicle stops, all the following traffic will be closing up AND squeezing into the remaining lanes from normal speeds of up to 70mph. The HA call these 'smart motorways' which in theory increases the capacity at the expense of the hard shoulder, a built-in feature that is universally recognised as the reason for motorways being the safest kind of road per passenger mile.
Another case of 'let's save money at all cost'!

 

[Robertj21a]

Latest is that the coach driver has been arrested

Isn't that standard practice in such circumstances ?

 

[jon0844]

Isn't that standard practice in such circumstances ?

I'd have thought so.

 

[notadriver]

I'd have thought so.

If it had been the other way around the the car hit the coach, would the coach driver still have been arrested ?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If it had been the other way around the the car hit the coach, would the coach driver still have been arrested ?

Clearly not?

 

[Busaholic]

If it had been the other way around the the car hit the coach, would the coach driver still have been arrested ?

On the basis of the limited information released by the police-

The car was stationary on the hard shoulder (later expanded to 'parked' on the hard shoulder, presumably to indicate it had some mechanical defect)

Three men died and one was seriously injured

Nobody on the coach was injured

No other vehicle was involved

Then the only surmisal must be that the coach driver has been arrested on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving. Whether he is ever charged with this is another matter, but the next 36 hours will probably provide the answer. Reckless, rather than dangerous, is just possible but unlikely in the circumstances, especially as potential witnesses on the coach will have given accounts, to be turned into statements.

It is impossible to give an answer to your hypothetical question, but if the circumstances had been exactly the reverse it would be highly unlikely.

 

[Robertj21a]

On the basis of the limited information released by the police-

The car was stationary on the hard shoulder (later expanded to 'parked' on the hard shoulder, presumably to indicate it had some mechanical defect)

Three men died and one was seriously injured

Nobody on the coach was injured

No other vehicle was involved

Then the only surmisal must be that the coach driver has been arrested on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving. Whether he is ever charged with this is another matter, but the next 36 hours will probably provide the answer. Reckless, rather than dangerous, is just possible but unlikely in the circumstances, especially as potential witnesses on the coach will have given accounts, to be turned into statements.

It is impossible to give an answer to your hypothetical question, but if the circumstances had been exactly the reverse it would be highly unlikely.

There may be other considerations to take into account. Apparently, it was raining and slightly foggy at the time. In addition, the section where the accident happened is also where the hard shoulder is used as a full traffic lane when the motorway is busy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There may be other considerations to take into account. Apparently, it was raining and slightly foggy at the time. In addition, the section where the accident happened is also where the hard shoulder is used as a full traffic lane when the motorway is busy.

That is interesting - it might highlight that Managed Motorways pose a slightly higher risk of hard shoulder collisions, because it's no longer obvious that the hard shoulder is not the right place to drive.

Neil

 

[PermitToTravel]

That is interesting - it might highlight that Managed Motorways pose a slightly higher risk of hard shoulder collisions, because it's no longer obvious that the hard shoulder is not the right place to drive.

Neil

It's not clear whether the coach was travelling in lane 1 and clipped the car, or in the shoulder and hit it from behind square on. I don't think that any conclusions about the safety of Managed Motorways can be drawn from this; it's not as if this is at all a new type of incident. This still happened frequently in the days before hard shoulder running.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not clear whether the coach was travelling in lane 1 and clipped the car, or in the shoulder and hit it from behind square on. I don't think that any conclusions about the safety of Managed Motorways can be drawn from this; it's not as if this is at all a new type of incident. This still happened frequently in the days before hard shoulder running.

It would nonetheless be interesting to see if motorways with hard shoulder running have increased instances of collisions with stationary vehicles, or if since managed motorways were introduced the instance of these has increased.

It may well not have done, of course, and Managed Motorways have many other safety benefits. It might be there is a case for using some of its features to enhance safety - for instance putting a short section of 40 limit on and closing lane 1 in the event of a stationary vehicle being seen on the shoulder. But this of course has to be traded off against congestion.

Neil

 

[jon0844]

If it had been the other way around the the car hit the coach, would the coach driver still have been arrested ?

Surely it would be the car driver arrested then? The type of vehicle would be irrelevant.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There may be other considerations to take into account. Apparently, it was raining and slightly foggy at the time. In addition, the section where the accident happened is also where the hard shoulder is used as a full traffic lane when the motorway is busy.

Is hard shoulder running allowed in fog? If not, and this was for related, perhaps it shouldn't be. The lanes need to be monitored for anyone broken down, so I'd say fog would prevent that being possible.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Surely it would be the car driver arrested then? The type of vehicle would be irrelevant.

I understand that arrest isn't routine in circumstances like these, and only necessary where it is difficult to confirm the addresses of people / where people do not voluntarily submit to interviews / where people are likely to abscond / etc

 

[Hadders]

I regularly use this stretch of the M1 northbound on Saturday mornings and it's highly unlikely that the hard shoulder was being used as a running lane at that time.

Despite it sometimes being used as a running lane at busy times there is still a solid white line between the hard shoulder and lane 1. This line also has a rumble strip - slightly different to the usual ones on non-managed sections but still a rumble strip (it makes a higher pitched sound as you go over it).

Also, when the hard shoulder is being used as a running lane a lower speed limit is always implemented. Managed motorways are covered by CCTV cameras (you can see them in the photo of the accident scene). If the hard shoulder is being used as a running lane and vehicle breaks down on it the control room should notice this on the CCTV and close the lane via the signs on the overhead gantry.

 

[edwin_m]

I understand that arrest isn't routine in circumstances like these, and only necessary where it is difficult to confirm the addresses of people / where people do not voluntarily submit to interviews / where people are likely to abscond / etc

I think the police would arrest the driver if they had reason to believe an offence had been committed, but would then allow police bail if they were satisfied there was no risk of the suspect absconding.

 

[AM9]

.... Also, when the hard shoulder is being used as a running lane a lower speed limit is always implemented. Managed motorways are covered by CCTV cameras (you can see them in the photo of the accident scene). If the hard shoulder is being used as a running lane and vehicle breaks down on it the control room should notice this on the CCTV and close the lane via the signs on the overhead gantry.

That's the scheme on the M1 but the latest implementation is that now running on the M25 which runs without a hard shoulder by default at the NSL. So stopping on it can be very dangerous as tghe lane is usually carrying HGV traffic. Obviously control keep a watch out for stoppers, but when that happens there is a flow of traffic at full speed that quickly needs to be squeezed into lane 1. A recipe for disasters just like this. See my post #11 in this thread.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

If it had been the other way around the the car hit the coach, would the coach driver still have been arrested ?

Arrest in the UK is a Neutral act to facilitate an investigation and to give the arrestee thefull protection of the law rather than the neither fishj nor fowl scenario of ' helping police with their enquiries'

 

[Busaholic]

How likely is it that the hard shoulder would be used as a running lane at 7 a.m. on a Saturday except in the case of roadworks or a previous accident? In any case, the police would have qualified their statement that the car was stationary on the hard shoulder if it was being otherwise used. Presumption of guilt on the coach driver being arrested mustn't follow, but I can't see that anyone else would get arrested. It may, of course, be never possible to hear any evidence from anyone in the car, perhaps to explain why it was there, although someone may have made a telephone call prior to the accident.

 

[radamfi]

Arrest in the UK is a Neutral act to facilitate an investigation and to give the arrestee thefull protection of the law rather than the neither fishj nor fowl scenario of ' helping police with their enquiries'

If you want to visit the United States using the ESTA scheme, you need to answer this question:

Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority?

So if you have had such an arrest, even if you were released shortly afterwards, you are not eligible for the ESTA scheme and must apply for a visa.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Arrest in this country is still entirely neutral, regardless of the yanks' understanding of the matter

 

[deltic]

That's the scheme on the M1 but the latest implementation is that now running on the M25 which runs without a hard shoulder by default at the NSL. So stopping on it can be very dangerous as tghe lane is usually carrying HGV traffic. Obviously control keep a watch out for stoppers, but when that happens there is a flow of traffic at full speed that quickly needs to be squeezed into lane 1. A recipe for disasters just like this. See my post #11 in this thread.

There is no evidence that smart motorways are in anyway more dangerous than motorways with hard shoulders. Hard shoulders are dangerous places and routinely misused. Smart motorways are equipped with emergency refuge areas every few miles which are also misused, some people think they are laybys. How many breakdowns require a driver to pull over and stop immediately? A common problem on the motorway network is people running out of fuel and coming to a halt on any on the running lanes.