Travelling Zone 1-4 with a 1-3 travelcard

[Singing Rails]

Hello, and thanks in advance for any advice:

Today I wanted to do some spotting at Mill Hill Broadway, and so I touched in with my oyster at St Pancras (with a 1-3 travelcard on it), I spend just short of an hour I think at Mill Hill (which is in zone 4), and I didn't leave the station, (so I didn't touch out).
On the train back, I was trying to find a forward facing window seat, so I was walking through the carriages, and was unlucky enough to run into a ticket inspector (especially unlucky as they seem to be rare on FCC), who checked my oyster and the conclusion was that I am now supposed to pay a £20 penalty fare, for travelling 1 zone out of my travelcard (note I did tell him I was spotting and had not been travelling beyond mill hill)

What can I do to appeal against this, I would have thought technically I have not actually travelled anywhere since I didn't leave mill hill, (and there was obviously no route validator to show the route I had taken).
The journey to mill hill would have only cost me £1, since it is off peak, I have a 1-3 travelcard, a railcard, and an 18+ oyster.
I shouldn't go into it but it seems completely unfair that I should have to pay £19 more than I should had I touched out, when I see swathes of people dodging fares. In fact even after I told two members of staff on a different train the other day, a bunch of yobs sitting in first class, drinking alcohol, swearing whilst there are children around and from the sound of it not even having any tickets at all, get off scott free.

 

[dcsprior]

Hello, and thanks in advance for any advice:

Today I wanted to do some spotting at Mill Hill Broadway, and so I touched in with my oyster at St Pancras (with a 1-3 travelcard on it), I spend just short of an hour I think at Mill Hill (which is in zone 4), and I didn't leave the station, (so I didn't touch out).
On the train back, I was trying to find a forward facing window seat, so I was walking through the carriages, and was unlucky enough to run into a ticket inspector (especially unlucky as they seem to be rare on FCC), who checked my oyster and the conclusion was that I am now supposed to pay a £20 penalty fare, for travelling 1 zone out of my travelcard

So to summarise,

• You'd touched in at the start of your journey
• You'd not yet finished your journey, so were not yet due to have touched out

Unless there's something I've missed, or there's something you're not mentioning, then I don't see the problem... I think there's been another thread recently (which I can't find) that says that when using oyster then so long as you touch in at the start, and touch out at the end (not applicable here as you'd not yet reached the end of your journey) then you're OK

 

[causton]

You still made a journey, were you trying to save the £1 you would have to pay or did you legitimately think you would be fine travelling to Zone 4 and back because you were not leaving the station? Your touch in at St Pancras would have expired and for your return journey you are effectively travelling in Zone 4 with a Zone 1-3 travelcard as you have technically made 2 separate journeys IMO, you should have touched out at Mill Hill and then touched back in.

 

[yorkie]

Hello, and thanks in advance for any advice:

Today I wanted to do some spotting at Mill Hill Broadway, and so I touched in with my oyster at St Pancras (with a 1-3 travelcard on it), I spend just short of an hour I think at Mill Hill (which is in zone 4), and I didn't leave the station, (so I didn't touch out).
On the train back, I was trying to find a forward facing window seat, so I was walking through the carriages, and was unlucky enough to run into a ticket inspector (especially unlucky as they seem to be rare on FCC), who checked my oyster and the conclusion was that I am now supposed to pay a £20 penalty fare, for travelling 1 zone out of my travelcard.

I can see how they reached that conclusion, as a logical interpretation would be, as there is such a huge gap between trains, that you made a journey from St Pancras to somewhere beyond your Zones, and were on your return journey.

That said, if you were within the maximum journey time, you may have a case for using that for the basis of your appeal (see other threads) but I am not sure it'll wash, with such a long time at Mill Hill.

What can I do to appeal against this, I would have thought technically I have not actually travelled anywhere since I didn't leave mill hill

You did travel somewhere, I don't think denying that is reasonable grounds for an appeal!

(and there was obviously no route validator to show the route I had taken).

You've not said where your journey is to? but a pink route validator is irrelevant.

Next time, touch out & back in again at Mill Hill. If spending a lot of time there, you may wish to work out the best time to do that, to avoid exceeding the maximum journey time.

The journey to mill hill would have only cost me £1, since it is off peak, I have a 1-3 travelcard, a railcard, and an 18+ oyster.

In that case it would have made a lot more sense to have ensured that was paid

I shouldn't go into it but it seems completely unfair that I should have to pay £19 more than I should had I touched out, when I see swathes of people dodging fares.

That's not a reasonable grounds for appeal, so if you are asking for my advice on whether to say that in your appeal, I would strongly advise against it!

I think there's been another thread recently (which I can't find) that says that when using oyster then so long as you touch in at the start, and touch out at the end (not applicable here as you'd not yet reached the end of your journey) then you're OK

True, but spending an hour at Mill Hill isn't quite comparable to changing platforms at Surbiton.

 

[Singing Rails]

I can see how they reached that conclusion, as a logical interpretation would be, as there is such a huge gap between trains, that you made a journey from St Pancras to somewhere beyond your Zones, and were on your return journey.

That said, if you were within the maximum journey time, you may have a case for using that for the basis of your appeal (see other threads) but I am not sure it'll wash, with such a long time at Mill Hill.


You did travel somewhere, I don't think denying that is reasonable grounds for an appeal!

Sorry I forgot to mention, I did tell the staff I was just spotting, and not travelling somewhere, If necessary I could show video footage of trains, knowing the timetabling that could prove I didn't travel anywhere else (as ridiculous as this sounds)

 

[causton]

Unless there's something I've missed, or there's something you're not mentioning, then I don't see the problem... I think there's been another thread recently (which I can't find) that says that when using oyster then so long as you touch in at the start, and touch out at the end (not applicable here as you'd not yet reached the end of your journey) then you're OK

If someone is travelling St Pancras - Mill Hill Broadway, and then Mill Hill Broadway - St Pancras, I would consider that two journeys. Otherwise I could go from London to Edinburgh and back and claim that because I was starting and finishing in London I didn't need a ticket! I don't see any logical reason for explaining why the OP is making a journey from St Pancras to St Pancras...

 

[yorkie]

Singing Rails - you have a PM.

If someone is travelling St Pancras - Mill Hill Broadway, and then Mill Hill Broadway - St Pancras, I would consider that two journeys. Otherwise I could go from London to Edinburgh and back and claim that because I was starting and finishing in London I didn't need a ticket! I don't see any logical reason for explaining why the OP is making a journey from St Pancras to St Pancras...

We don't know the final destination, but if that is the claim, then it would clearly not be a valid reason, and I'd encourage the OP to simply pay the PF.

 

[Monty]

Seems like a legitimately issued PFN to me, if using an Oyster card with a travelcard loaded on to it you cannot travel through zone 4 if you only have zones 1-3 regardless if you end your 'journey' there or not. Otherwise on that basis I could travel from Feltham to Harrow and Wealdstone via zone 1 on a zone 2-6 travelcard, which you cannot.

 

[Singing Rails]

You still made a journey, were you trying to save the £1 you would have to pay or did you legitimately think you would be fine travelling to Zone 4 and back because you were not leaving the station? Your touch in at St Pancras would have expired and for your return journey you are effectively travelling in Zone 4 with a Zone 1-3 travelcard as you have technically made 2 separate journeys IMO, you should have touched out at Mill Hill and then touched back in.

I thought It would be fine (at least with the oyster barrier anyway), Since St Pancras is zone 1 then because my travelcard is valid there there is no time limit, regardless, the time max journey time on sundays for zones 1-4 is 135 minutes

 

[bb21]

I thought It would be fine (at least with the oyster barrier anyway), Since St Pancras is zone 1 then because my travelcard is valid there there is no time limit, regardless, the time max journey time on sundays for zones 1-4 is 135 minutes

But you did not touch out at a Zone 4 station as you attempted to travel back into the zones covered by your season ticket, so the maximum journey time for a Zones 1-4 journey would not apply.

As yorkie has already explained, you might be able to argue your case on a technicality ground, however what you did is certainly not in the spirit of the rules so be prepared for a long battle.

And when you appeal your Penalty Fare Notice, please do not mention how it is unfair that yobbish kids do not get challenged yet you did. It is not relevant and does you no favours. You tried to take advantage of a weakness in the Oyster system and got caught out so crying foul is hardly going to gain you brownie points.

 

[island]

I think the PF was correctly issued on this occasion. This was two discrete journeys and the OP should have touched out and back in at MIL.

 

[transportphoto]

I think the PF was correctly issued on this occasion. This was two discrete journeys and the OP should have touched out and back in at MIL.

I can only echo this, sorry, but that is just pushing the allowances of Oyster too far!

IMHO, IANAL.

 

[yorkie]

Seems like a legitimately issued PFN to me

Agreed.

if using an Oyster card with a travelcard loaded on to it you cannot travel through zone 4 if you only have zones 1-3 regardless if you end your 'journey' there or not.

You can make any journey within the Oyster area, using a combination of Oyster PAYG and Travelcard loaded onto Oyster, but you are bound by the Oyster Conditions of Use.

Otherwise on that basis I could travel from Feltham to Harrow and Wealdstone via zone 1 on a zone 2-6 travelcard, which you cannot.

You can actually, providing you have sufficient PAYG credit, and are touched in correctly. The system will automatically calculate the additional fare (which will be a Zone 1 only fare, in this case) charged on a PAYG basis.

I thought It would be fine (at least with the oyster barrier anyway), Since St Pancras is zone 1 then because my travelcard is valid there there is no time limit, regardless, the time max journey time on sundays for zones 1-4 is 135 minutes

If your argument would be on the basis that "I did not make a journey to Zone 4", and "The maximum journey time for a journey to Zone 4 is 135 minutes, and I was within this time" and "My journey was from St Pancras to St Pancras" and they would spot major inconsistencies in such statements (however they are worded).

They then may consider cancelling the PF and, instead, issuing an intention to prosecute letter and asking for a Statement from you. Or they would simply dismiss your appeal and insist that the PF is paid.

Therefore, I will repeat my advice one last time: pay the PF.

(You don't have to accept my advice, of course, but as you asked...! )

 

[Monty]

Woops I should of mentioned Yorkie that I was aware you can use 'pay as you go' credit in conjunction with a travelcard loaded on to your oyster! But to do that you would have to validate your oyster correctly at either the start, during and/or the end of your journey. So taking my Feltham to Harrow example you would have to tap in/out when you go through the barriers at Waterloo and onwards on the underground. Since the OP had not done this to make his oystercard valid for the journey he was making I saw no need to mention any technicalities. Basically the OP has been caught making his way back from zone 4 with an incomplete journey on his oystercard so the PFN was justly issued.

He should consider himself lucky, had I been the inspector I would be pretty confident I could prove intent to avoid and get a 5 3a prosecution out of the irregularity since he admitted he didn't want to pay the extra by tapping out at Mill Hill

 

[Singing Rails]

I think I may as well contest it seeing as the guy who issued it says it cannot get worse by doing so, additionally because £20 is a lot of money to someone who only earns £30 each week, (and £10 got me over 100 miles of journeys and a whole day out with the thames branches ranger, so to pay £20 for like 4 miles?, is crazy.)

 

[Greenback]

I think I may as well contest it seeing as the guy who issued it says it cannot get worse by doing so, additionally because £20 is a lot of money to someone who only earns £30 each week, (and £10 got me over 100 miles of journeys and a whole day out with the thames branches ranger, so to pay £20 for like 4 miles?, is crazy.)

In my view you might make things worse if you contest it. The fact that you can get more than 4 miles of travel for £10 elsewhere, you don't earn much, and other passengers are ill mannered, is not grounds to dispute a PF that was, in my view, correctly issued.

It is also possible that you may make things even worse for yourself, despite the comment by the member of staff.

 

[yorkie]

Singing Rails - I'll lock this thread now, as you've received plenty of advice (as I said, you don't have to take the advice, it is your choice) and it's now up to you how you proceed, so there's nothing more that can be said.

It is, in my opinion, unwise to state any of the comparisons you have made here.

But when the result is through, please send me a PM, so the outcome can be posted. Thanks.