Travelling back from Alfreton on a London - Matlock return

[Sleeper]

I'm hoping that knowledgeable members of this forum will be able to advise me about the validity of a my use of a particular ticket type.

Over many years, I have frequently travelled, mainly at weekends, from London to Derbyshire using a super off-peak return ticket from London Terminals to Matlock, route Any Permitted, restriction code CJ, fare from Jan 2016 £44.90 with senior railcard.

In practice this means starting at St Pancras, travelling to Derby, and changing there for Matlock. The return is usually the plain reverse, but sometimes it involves changing at, say, Beeston instead of Derby and catching a London train that started from Nottingham. I believe all that is within the ticket's route validity.

However, on one occasion it suited me to travel back from Alfreton changing at Nottingham. So before I bought my ticket at St Pancras I asked the ticket clerk how much extra it would cost me. The ticket clerk told me that the London/Matlock ticket would be fine. And Indeed, when my return ticket was checked on the Alfreton to Nottingham train, it was accepted without comment.

Since then I have travelled back via the Alfreton route several times. My return ticket has been accepted by guards from Northern Rail and from East Midlands Trains - both companies operate between Alfreton and Nottingham. And on two occasions when the Alfreton booking office was staffed and there was plenty of time to sell me an additional ticket, I checked and in one case was assured my return ticket was fine and in the other case I was invited to check with the guard.

I should add that all of the staff I dealt with gave every appearance of being fully professional and knowledgeable people going diligently about their work.

What concerns me is that I cannot understand how Alfreton can possibly be part of a Permitted Route from Matlock to London. And the stories on your forum about the dire consequences for people caught without the correct ticket worries me.

Can someone on the forum reassure me about this, please, by explaining why this route from Alfreton is OK?

If you think it isn't OK, what additional or alternative ticket do you think I should be asking for? I don't always know when I set out from London whether I shall prefer to travel back from Matlock or Alfreton. Many thanks.

 

[Romilly]

The ticket you use appears to be valid for journeys that go Matlock to London St Pancras via Derby, Nottingham and East Midlands Parkway.

Accordingly, if you return from Alfreton, I think that you just need an Alfreton-Nottingham single. Like you, I can't see why a London-Matlock return ticket would be valid for the Alfreton-Nottingham leg of an Alfreton-Nottingham-East Midlands Parkway-St Pancras homeward journey.

 

[greatkingrat]

There may be some local agreement to treat tickets as interchangable as the fares from London to Matlock or Alfreton are the same.

 

[bb21]

Yeah "local easements" is the only possible explanation I can offer the OP.

 

[sheff1]

Derby (Routeing Point for Matlock) to London used to be valid via Chesterfield and Alfreton using map MM.

At some point a new map NM was introduced which removed the above routing. Unless there is, indeed, a local easement it would seem staff are still going by the old rules.

 

[Sleeper]

Thanks for your responses (so far).

However, they still leave me unsure of what to do in the future.

A single Alfreton-Nottingham is £5.50 with senior railcard, which is not an inconsiderable sum (time after time) for a ticket that may not be necessary. And several staff have either (1) specifically told me my existing London/Matlock ticket is sufficient, or (2) have accepted it as valid on presentation. No one has refused it or even made an adverse comment. But of course I have nothing in writing.

ALF station is not always staffed when I use it, but it does have a ticket machine. So if a ticket IS needed I would have had the opportunity to purchase.

I could ask the guard before boarding each time, but first I have to locate the guard on a four car train and get to him/her. And really, the guard’s immediate interest at that point is to keep the dwell time to a minimum and get the train on its way again. It seems quite unreasonable to expect the guard to welcome the distraction of an arcane ticketing query just then.

I don’t mind paying extra if it is due. But I rather resent it if it isn’t, and that it isn’t is the clear indication from staff — not just any old staff, but staff whose job it is to issue and/or check tickets.

The line between paying no more than you should have to and potentially gaining a criminal record is not only a fine one, but a meandering one!

Should I write to East Midlands Trains for guidance, in much the same way as I have written to this forum?

Or is there a better strategy I could adopt?

Thanks again in anticipation.

 

[Paul Kelly]

As long as it used to be a permitted route (I haven't checked myself), then as I see it you are fine to keep using it, and if you are challenged, state that you believe that Matlock - Derby - Chesterfield - Alfreton - Nottingham - London is a reasonable route and has been permitted under the routeing guide. If the staff member you encountered maintains that the route is not permitted, then you invoke the "disputed routeing procedure" as described on page 7 of this document: http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/nrg_instructions.pdf. There should be no question of a criminal record.

 

[bb21]

I think "reasonable" is going a bit far if talking about permission via Chesterfield, but the Disputed Routeing Procedure is a good one.

 

[LowLevel]

As one of the guards you are likely to encounter I personally wouldn't care and it's unlikely anyone else would as the SSR from Alfreton to St Pancras via Nottingham is 68 quid before your discount, same as the fare from Matlock to St Pancras. You won't find many guards being that bothered about the technical nuances of the routeing guide.

As long as its in the vaguely correct area and not taking the Mick on pricing I allow a bit of discretion over starting stations for long distance journeys. Chesterfield starting from Matlock, Mansfield from Alfreton etc are all quite regular occurrences.

As you point out at the stop before the train divides I've got more to worry about than two fares that are the same from different origins in the local area

 

[CyrusWuff]

Looking at the 1996 Routeing Guide, Matlock was associated with Derby Group (which, as now, consisted of Belper, Duffield, Derby, Long Eaton, Peartree and Spondon).

Derby Group to London Group was permitted on Map MM (now it's NM and TV), which covered the entire Midland Main Line (and beyond to York, Selby, Bradford, Hellifield, Glasgow and Lancaster), thus would have permitted travel via Alfreton.

Also of interest in the 1996 RG is that what we think of as the "Instructions" on how to use it were buried in Section F, right at the back, along with the examples, rather than Section A!

In the 1997 edition, the instructions had moved to Section A, and Derby - London gained CE+LM as an alternative combination of maps, permitting travel via Tamworth and Birmingham/Nuneaton.

Given travel via Alfreton was clearly permitted at the time of privatisation, invoking the Disputed Routes procedure would seem to be the way to go...If you can find someone in EMT, ATOC and the DfT who knows how!

 

[robbeech]

As has been already mentioned, the only thing i can see that goes against this is the fact that the only trains to come out of Matlock are bound for Derby (then Newark). So i'm not sure that the Matlock-Derby-Chesterfield-Alfreton-Nottingham-London routing works too well as you'd be doubling back at Derby, where there are suitable trains to your destination. Now i know you're not DOING that, but it wouldn't be a suitable route to tell them if you were questioned what you were doing in Alfreton.

However, as most people are saying, it's there or there abouts and at least HAS been valid in the past so i think you're fine.

Rob

 

[Paul Kelly]

As has been already mentioned, the only thing i can see that goes against this is the fact that the only trains to come out of Matlock are bound for Derby (then Newark). So i'm not sure that the Matlock-Derby-Chesterfield-Alfreton-Nottingham-London routing works too well as you'd be doubling back at Derby

That's not a problem due to the existence of Derby Routeing Group (as described by CyrusWuff) - doubling back within routeing groups is allowed for interchange purposes.