Travellers

[ralphchadkirk]

Well said Oswyntail.

 

[thefab444]

It's partly because people don't want to take the risk - they may well be fine, but if they're not they will be an absolute pain in the proverbial for weeks. Most communities just don't want the hassle.

Those who have a pitch on a caravan site can insure their vehicles as they have a fixed abode....again, the law abiding travellers.

People that live on official caravan sites I don't have a problem with at all. It's the ones that stay on any old private and public property, expecting other people to pay for the clean-up operation, education of their kids and healthcare that get on my nerves. If you're not paying for these things, what's the chance that you'll treat them with respect?

I agree with your defence of the law abiding ones, but we need some kind of percentage to prove how many travellers actually are law abiding; anecdotes are great, but we need concrete statistics.

 

[passmore]

The vast majority of "travellers" I have had dealings with over the years have cleaned up after themselves (usually leaving their rubbish safely bagged in a pre-arranged collection point for the council.) They leave the sites in a better state than the average city-centre after a Saturday night of people having "fun" (full of rubbish, excrement, needles, vomit and discarded "kebabs"). Some don't, and some householders have filthy habits.
The plain fact is that "travellers" are different and so a wee bit scary, which is why communities put up the shutters - and the same is true of: young people; immigrants; football fans; music festival goers; even rail enthusiasts. And there are good and bad in all those groups.

Exactly.

But I still think there needs to be a modicum of spending from the council involved to ensure that rubbish doesn't become a health hazard to anyone.

 

[Kernowfem]

It's partly because people don't want to take the risk - they may well be fine, but if they're not they will be an absolute pain in the proverbial for weeks. Most communities just don't want the hassle.



People that live on official caravan sites I don't have a problem with at all. It's the ones that stay on any old private and public property, expecting other people to pay for the clean-up operation, education of their kids and healthcare that get on my nerves. If you're not paying for these things, what's the chance that you'll treat them with respect?

I agree with your defence of the law abiding ones, but we need some kind of percentage to prove how many travellers actually are law abiding; anecdotes are great, but we need concrete statistics.

Why do "we" need statistics? Do "we" go around asking for them when a druggy living in a council flat OD's and needs an ambulance, or a smoker needs a triple heart bypass??

What seperates our communitys so much that we have to know what percentage are bad and good first before "we" allow them to use our schools and services?

 

[thefab444]

Why do "we" need statistics? Do "we" go around asking for them when a druggy living in a council flat OD's and needs an ambulance, or a smoker needs a triple heart bypass??

So that we can ascertain whether the stereotype is justified or not, and if it isn't, make attempts to change it. If we know that 95% of them are law abiding then communities should be far more likely to accept them, if we know it is 10% then maybe not.

 

[Kernowfem]

So that we can ascertain whether the stereotype is justified or not, and if it isn't, make attempts to change it. If we know that 95% of them are law abiding then communities should be far more likely to accept them, if we know it is 10% then maybe not.

Seeing as stereotyping is done by a beholder, getting people to change their minds and stance on something starts with us. Not statistics fab.

 

[thefab444]

Seeing as stereotyping is done by a beholder, getting people to change their minds and stance on something starts with us. Not statistics fab.

So what you're trying to say is that if we start thinking dumping waste on public property is acceptable, people won't dislike travellers? I suppose that is one way of looking at it.

 

[strange6]

Because official caravan parks hear the word travellers and automatically think of criminals and vagrants - rather like some on here.

lol You make me laugh, Ralph!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A reputation that sadly has led to some on here with ill-judged preconceptions about them..

You can only go on experience, mate. Some of us live in the real world and not cloud cuckoo land

 

[Kernowfem]

So what you're trying to say is that if we start thinking dumping waste on public property is acceptable, people won't dislike travellers? I suppose that is one way of looking at it.

Absolutely not. I didn't say that. I know numerous local companies that have been fined for fly tipping and dumping....they are not travellers, and it is not acceptable at all. Are you saying it's only travellers who dump and fly tip?? Of course you aren't!

What i'm saying is how do you go around getting statistics for what you suggested? Infiltrate every traveller camp and demand to know whether they have a criminal record??

 

[strange6]

So what you're trying to say is that if we start thinking dumping waste on public property is acceptable, people won't dislike travellers? I suppose that is one way of looking at it.

I wouldn't bother argueing mate. Some people are so politically correct that they only see the world through rose tinted spectacles and most of them spend all their days on here, mentioning no names. Explains it all does that!
This is last comment I'm making on the thread.

 

[thefab444]

What i'm saying is how do you go around getting statistics for what you suggested? Infiltrate every traveller camp and demand to know whether they have a criminal record??

Not the faintest idea!

If you want to set up a campaign to change the public perception on travellers then good luck to you, but I fear you'll have your work cut out.

 

[Kernowfem]

Not the faintest idea!

If you want to set up a campaign to change the public perception on travellers then good luck to you, but I fear you'll have your work cut out.

I have no intention of setting up such a campaign, i am quite proud of the fact that i have the ability to seperate individuals from a group. What is so wrong with that?

Nor would i set up a campaign to educate people on the fact that not ALL muslims are terrorists. It's a fruitless task in every sense of the word.

 

[ACE1888]

General 'Hell Up' with this thread it seems....
My Opinion?? For what it's worth...
If you 'pay your way' and contribute, you have the right to comment...if your a 'freeloader' (in any shape or form I would like to add), you deserve nothing in Life. End of Story.

 

[Kernowfem]

I wouldn't bother argueing mate. Some people are so politically correct that they only see the world through rose tinted spectacles and most of them spend all their days on here, mentioning no names. Explains it all does that!
This is last comment I'm making on the thread.

Ive never been politically correct in my life, but i can say im not prejudiced, all this thread explains Strange is that not everyone shares the same opinion. Thats not such a bad thing, the world would be a boring place to live if we did.

 

[passmore]

I wouldn't bother argueing mate. Some people are so politically correct that they only see the world through rose tinted spectacles and most of them spend all their days on here, mentioning no names. Explains it all does that!
This is last comment I'm making on the thread.

One of the things I don't like about modern society is political correctness and politically correct people. Have you seen me list them in the 'What do you hate?' thread? Thankfully, here, political correctness has nothing to do whatsoever with this debate.

As someone correctly stated earlier, travellers are an odd bunch and they often attract comments from close-minded people. That's what we're seeing here and on countless occasions where travellers have been deemed a 'nuisance' by the local community. You need to look beyond your prejudices simply because they are a different kind of people than you or me, and engage in the real debate which is finding ways of giving these people appropriate punishment/s and/or help which do not involve eviction.

A different person is neither a vagrant nor a criminal, just different.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Once again they have left our local fields in a right state, complete with human excrement this time!

You will find that there will be people defending "travellers" saying that they live a different lifestyle to the rest of us....but to leave human excrement is no known behaviour of any civilised class of humanity. I defy anyone to say that this is acceptable to other people.

 

[bnm]

You will find that there will be people defending "travellers" saying that they live a different lifestyle to the rest of us....but to leave human excrement is no known behaviour of any civilised class of humanity. I defy anyone to say that this is acceptable to other people.

And I defy anyone to say that 'leaving human excrement' is a defining characteristic of all 'travellers'.

Yet again, just an example of narrow minded folks picking up on one aspect of a news item and using it to tar all with the same brush.

If they left human excreta then by all means castigate the individuals who did so. But my reading of your line, "You will find that there will be people defending "travellers" saying that they live a different lifestyle to the rest of us....but to leave human excrement is no known behaviour of any civilised class of humanity" is accidentally or (maybe) intentionally portraying all in the 'traveller' community as uncivilised. That couldn't be further from the truth. 'Civilised' is subjective.

Don't pander the nimby/media portrayal of these ethnic groups. Speak to them, engage with them, understand a little about their lifestyle and social history. You might actually learn something.

 

[passmore]

Exactly, bnm.

It would be better if those that were arguing against travellers aren't so hell-bent on finding ways of tarring them all with the same brush.

Now why am I so involved in this? We used to have a lot of problems with travellers near where I live. My neighbour used to complain about the mess but, especially, the anti-social behaviour shown towards people such as dog walkers who were just out and about. She claimed she was constantly terrorised by them, so I decided one day to go and investigate. I spoke to one of them, he invited me into his caravan for a cup of tea, but I said no. I explained to him that my community felt threatened by them, he said he knew but there was nothing he could do because no-one at 'the top' were doing anything. I sympathised with his situation and found the gentleman to be pleasant and personable. Yes he was bedraggled and unshaven etc, but his personality belied the stories I was hearing from my neighbours.
I confronted my next door neighbour about this and she said 'you were lucky, they were just on a good day'. I was puzzled by this remark. Was it the fact that his good manners and warm disposition were totally at odds to the rumours about travellers?

 

[thefab444]

A different person is neither a vagrant nor a criminal, just different.

But that doesn't mean they aren't vagrants or criminals. That's like a murderer saying, "I like killing people, I'm different but not a criminal".

Truth of the matter, they are different and some (not all) of them are criminals as well.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And I defy anyone to say that 'leaving human excrement' is a defining characteristic of all 'travellers' If they left human excreta then by all means castigate the individuals who did so.

You speak as if this is an isolated occurrence. This type of behaviour has been going on for many years in the one specific community that make a bad name for all the other travelling communities who work in travelling fairs, etc. Please note that I am nearer to 70 than 60 in age and I can speak with a lot more experiance of meeting with travelling fairs folk than many on this forum and in the 1960's and 1970's, there were far more travelling fairs than there are today. So, I have no need to talk to them as you suggest...I did this years ago and found them to be friendly and always willing to talk about their culture. In fact, they were pleased to see some one expressing a genuine interest in them. Yet people are still willing to accept the bad behavioural habits of this single minority group at the expense of those travellers who lead totally respectable lives. This really must leave these good people in despair.

In parts of North-West England, the occurrences of metal theft in the areas of the routes taken by the known specific individuals who give a bad name to all the good people that I have descibed above and who seem intent on causing havoc wherever they go, is a citeable police statistic.

If forum members may have misunderstood my statement previously, what I have said here should make matters clear on how I stand about the vast majority of the good people in that community whose reputation is being ruined by a group of what can only be described as common criminals.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

In parts of North-West England, the occurrences of metal theft in the areas of the routes taken by the known specific individuals who give a bad name to all the good people that I have descibed above and who seem intent on causing havoc wherever they go, is a citeable police statistic.

Please do.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Please do.

This was stated by a senior police officer at an open meeting of a large inter-ethnic community association in Padiham in April of this year.

 

[strange6]

What I would like to know is where have I written that all travelers are the same? People jumping to the wrong conclusions for the sake of an arguement again if you ask me. Still, I love you all even though I do feel like kicking some people up the you-know-what sometimes.

 

[yorkie]

If they left human excreta then by all means castigate the individuals who did so.

Not practical. They'll never admit which ones did it, and the individuals will get a lot of 'protection', potentially in the form of petrol bombs. The police would have absolutely no chance of doing anything against any individuals. To attempt to do so would cause a major stand-off/incident and any attempt to get individuals out of there would result in harm and accusations of racism. The only choice is to let them get away with it, and this is what the XC TM did (while enforcing restrictions on others) in my experience of wrongdoing, and what the police did in the programme described by another contributor to this thread. There is no other choice unless you want a major stand-off!

 

[strange6]

Not practical. They'll never admit which ones did it, and the individuals will get a lot of 'protection', potentially in the form of petrol bombs. The police would have absolutely no chance of doing anything against any individuals. To attempt to do so would cause a major stand-off/incident and any attempt to get individuals out of there would result in harm and accusations of racism. The only choice is to let them get away with it, and this is what the XC TM did (while enforcing restrictions on others) in my experience of wrongdoing, and what the police did in the programme described by another contributor to this thread. There is no other choice unless you want a major stand-off!

There would be no stand-off with me. I'd send the police in with riot gear and forcibly remove them, confiscating and crushing their vehicles and caravans too. This would only apply to the consistent troublemakers and not the genuine peaceful and respectful majority of the travelling community may I add.

 

[yorkie]

strange6- That won't work, see the video linked to on the other thread. Babies would be injured or even killed before you got to the perpetrators! Riot gear doesn't provide much protection from petrol bombs. The excuse that you are going after one or two people only is hardly going to wash. They wouldn't let you access them. Clearly the police are not going to go for taking action that would cause a major incident over the issue of hazardous/human waste being left on a field.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

,,,,,a post made ..... which was rubbish and that I disagreed with it strongly.

That is your own particular view. You seem very dismissive of other views that you do not agree with by referring to them as "rubbish" which is an emotive term.

 

[strange6]

Yet again, just an example of narrow minded folks picking up on one aspect of a news item and using it to tar all with the same brush.

I'm sure people don't read posts properly because I'm sick and tired to the back teeth of repeating myself. I DO NOT TAR ALL PEOPLE WITH THE SAME BRUSH! I HAVE NEVER SAID ALL TRAVELLERS ARE ALIKE" Has that message sank in yet? Shall I repeat myself for the 10th time? Stop being so politically correct and narrow minded please
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

strange6- That won't work, see the video linked to on the other thread. Babies would be injured or even killed before you got to the perpetrators! Riot gear doesn't provide much protection from petrol bombs. The excuse that you are going after one or two people only is hardly going to wash. They wouldn't let you access them. Clearly the police are not going to go for taking action that would cause a major incident over the issue of hazardous/human waste being left on a field.

Not to mention vandalism, intimidation, public nuiscance, theft, deception, fraud, assault, GBH, extortion ....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think that both sides of this discussion have made their points and at times, matters have gone a little too far. An issue such as this raises very emotive feelings, which has been only too obvious in the wordings of some postings.

The best thing now would to call a truce and a halt to this matter, in order that matters can die down and the heat be diffused from the situation.

 

[Clip]

for people who call themselves 'Travellers' they dont actually seem to like the travelling part do they?