Travel Irregularity report for a 17 year old with TPE

[beckyh]

Hi there, hoping for some advice please! My 17 year old son travelled from York to Leeds and back again this week after visiting some friends for the evening. He had bought an open day return ticket for a Northern Train and had used ibis for his outbound journey. We had given him a curfew to be home for and as Northern subsequently cancelled the train he was due to get home, he jumped on a TPE train without thinking as all trains after that were either cancelled or bus replacement services. On being asked to show his ticket and railcard (16-17 saver is what he holds) on the return journey, his phone battery had also died and as he doesn’t carry cash or cards, he couldn’t even buy a valid TPE ticket on the train (not even sure that would have been an option though!). He provided his correct details to the inspector (name, age, address) and was given a travel irregularity report which he told me about when he got home.

We have today received a letter from TPE addressed to us as his parents asking to give our comments on the “alleged incident” on the reverse of the letter within 14 days to avoid matters being “progressed”.
It doesn’t mention prosecution, just asks for comments.

I am trying to establish what may happen next and what we need to do in response. Our son is aware he should have had charge on his phone and that he shouldn’t have travelled on a TPE train without a ticket but didn’t know what else to do to get home in time and didn’t have have time to make an informed / sensible decision at Leeds before he boarded and also with no working phone, he left himself with limited / no options. Definitely a lesson learnt but just want to clarify what the best course of action now and what the outcome might be.

Thanks in advance!

 

[gray1404]

Definitely lessons to be learnt here about the importance of carrying emergency cash always or a backup physical bank card rather than relying solely on a mobile phone for everything.

I would be inclined to write back a brief reply: aplogise for the situation and assure them this is an isolated incident. State the reason for the confusion was due to the Northern service being cancelled and your son thought he was doing the right thing travelling on the next available train service. I would also enclose a cheque for the value of an Anytime Day Single adult rate. Hopefully they will then close the matter.

 

[beckyh]

Thank you for this. Will respond as suggested and see if that is acceptable.

 

[Gloster]

There will be more experts along soon (I presume), so it might be worth waiting until sometime tomorrow evening to see if others can provide more detailed advice. But do a draft on a separate piece of paper if you want in the meantime.

 

[MrJeeves]

For people who are immediately jumping to it being the 17 year old's fault, just remember the NRCoT:

Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.

In my mind TPE should have allowed travel to get the young person home, but I know that's not an enshrined right, especially when there were Northern RRBs coming later.

I would like to think that if the situation is clearly explained in reply to the letter, discretion should be shown for the fact an under 18 could have potentially been left stuck at a station for a significant period of time (maybe not to some of us, but maybe to a teenager trying to get home before their curfew without any charge on their phone!).

In my mind, the best option, which presumably wasn't taken, would have been to ask a member of staff what they would be best to do in order to get home, but even then that may not have helped in this scenario.

@beckyh it would be useful if we could know what day this was and roughly what time (and which service was cancelled if you know) so that we can see when the next Northern train would have gotten your son back to Leeds by.

 

[LowLevel]

For people who are immediately jumping to it being the 17 year old's fault, just remember the NRCoT:



In my mind TPE should have allowed travel to get the young person home, but I know that's not an enshrined right, especially when there were Northern RRBs coming later.

I would like to think that if the situation is clearly explained in reply to the letter, discretion should be shown for the fact an under 18 could have potentially been left stuck at a station for a significant period of time (maybe not to some of us, but maybe to a teenager trying to get home before their curfew without any charge on their phone!).

In my mind, the best option, which presumably wasn't taken, would have been to ask a member of staff what they would be best to do in order to get home, but even then that may not have helped in this scenario.

@beckyh it would be useful if we could know what day this was and roughly what time (and which service was cancelled if you know) so that we can see when the next Northern train would have gotten your son back to Leeds by.

There were apparently Northern bus replacements. That clause is intended to prevent stranding rather than provide convenience, though given the mess the network is frequently in I don't dispute that a bit of a lesson in trying to keep people using the railway rather than dividing it up would not always go amiss with some ticket inspectors and control teams as they police their little silos.

It's also worth noting that the TOCs are for example hiring giant billboards to point out that having no charge on your phone is no excuse and you will be treated as travelling without a ticket if you don't keep your phone charged. Blame the scrotes who took no time at all to seize the opportunity to try a new excuse.

Paper options are available for those who don't wish to be responsible for keeping their device charged, I know my phone doesn't have the best battery life so that's usually my choice.

Again though - I think perhaps that people should be written up and reported 100% of the time for dead phones, but also that any criminal proceedings should be discounted provided they prove they had a valid ticket - not withstanding the possibility of a penalty fare.

 

[beckyh]

For people who are immediately jumping to it being the 17 year old's fault, just remember the NRCoT:



In my mind TPE should have allowed travel to get the young person home, but I know that's not an enshrined right, especially when there were Northern RRBs coming later.

I would like to think that if the situation is clearly explained in reply to the letter, discretion should be shown for the fact an under 18 could have potentially been left stuck at a station for a significant period of time (maybe not to some of us, but maybe to a teenager trying to get home before their curfew without any charge on their phone!).

In my mind, the best option, which presumably wasn't taken, would have been to ask a member of staff what they would be best to do in order to get home, but even then that may not have helped in this scenario.

@beckyh it would be useful if we could know what day this was and roughly what time (and which service was cancelled if you know) so that we can see when the next Northern train would have gotten your son back to Leeds

For people who are immediately jumping to it being the 17 year old's fault, just remember the NRCoT:



In my mind TPE should have allowed travel to get the young person home, but I know that's not an enshrined right, especially when there were Northern RRBs coming later.

I would like to think that if the situation is clearly explained in reply to the letter, discretion should be shown for the fact an under 18 could have potentially been left stuck at a station for a significant period of time (maybe not to some of us, but maybe to a teenager trying to get home before their curfew without any charge on their phone!).

In my mind, the best option, which presumably wasn't taken, would have been to ask a member of staff what they would be best to do in order to get home, but even then that may not have helped in this scenario.

@beckyh it would be useful if we could know what day this was and roughly what time (and which service was cancelled if you know) so that we can see when the next Northern train would have gotten your son back to Leeds by.

Thank you for this - he was aiming to get the 21.31 Northern from Leeds to York which was cancelled so he thinks it was the 21.52 TPE he travelled on. The TIR has a time of 22.29 on it - not sure if this is the issue time?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Nov 2023 ==

@MrJeeves - this should have also said was Thursday last - 23/11

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thank you for this - he was aiming to get the 21.31 Northern from Leeds to York which was cancelled so he thinks it was the 21.52 TPE he travelled on. The TIR has a time of 22.29 on it - not sure if this is the issue time?

Apologies if you have told us and I have missed it, but what was the date of the incident? As people have suggested, there might be an argument that TPE were obliged to help your son complete their journey, but that depends on what state the trains in general were in, and that varies from day to day. If we know what day is involved there are publicly available records that can be looked at to show what trains were running.

 

[beckyh]

Apologies if you have told us and I have missed it, but what was the date of the incident? As people have suggested, there might be an argument that TPE were obliged to help your son complete their journey, but that depends on what state the trains in general were in, and that varies from day to day. If we know what day is involved there are publicly available records that can be looked at to show what trains were running.

Thank you Fawkes Cat - it was Thursday 23rd November

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

This is an unfortunate incident, and I do agree with forum members who suggest it's always worth carrying a back-up bank card or some emergency cash and a phone charger! Technically you're som committed a criminal offence as he was not able to show a valid ticket when asked to do so. This is what is called a strict liability offence - and like being done for speeding all TPE has to show is that they offence took place.

The good news is that TPE are one of the more pragmatic train companies when it comes to dealing with this sort of thing. I would write a short, concise letter in reply telling them what happened. In addition I would mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What your son has learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Although TPE could decide to prosecute I think this is highly unlikely given the circumstances, particularly if you include the points mentioned above in your reply. I expect they will offer you an administrative settlement (sometimes called an out of court settlement). Settlements tend to be around £150 plus the outstanding fare (although I'd expect the admin fee to be less given your son's age). An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[gray1404]

Given that travel in this case involves a minor I think they may be inclined not to charge an administration fee based on previous experience. That is why I am suggesting and closing a cheque to the value of the single fare in the hope that will persuade them to close the matter.

 

[Trainguy34]

From a look at RealTime Trains, the only train to York around that time is the 2129 to York via Harrogate, but that ran.

The TPE that he would have got was a Newcastle bound train, running 18 minutes late, meaning the 22.29 issue would have been about 7 mins from York (Around Ulleskelf).

 

[fandroid]

As there was no mention of prosecution in the letter from TPE, I think it would be premature to offer admin costs. Just the concise explanation of the situation, plus apologies, and the assurance that the OP's son has learnt valuable lessons from the experience. Then enclose a cheque for the unpaid fare, including the Railcard discount. It's incumbent on us all, including rail companies, to assist young people in learning how to deal with the complexities of life, and rail company revenue staff should not regard them all as trainee criminals

 

[Snow1964]

If you are writing with an explanation, and mentioning the cancelled train, and offering funds to pay, it will do no harm adding a copy of railcard and ticket.

Basically showing it was not intentional, and have taught him about not relying on a rechargeable battery, rather than carrying emergency cash and/or a bank card. Remember even if correct train had run could still have been asked to show the ticket.

 

[Hadders]

Given that travel in this case involves a minor I think they may be inclined not to charge an administration fee based on previous experience. That is why I am suggesting and closing a cheque to the value of the single fare in the hope that will persuade them to close the matter.

I don't know what the exact wording of the letter says but often these initial letters specifically say not to send any money at this stage.

As there was no mention of prosecution in the letter from TPE, I think it would be premature to offer admin costs. Just the concise explanation of the situation, plus apologies, and the assurance that the OP's son has learnt valuable lessons from the experience. Then enclose a cheque for the unpaid fare, including the Railcard discount. It's incumbent on us all, including rail companies, to assist young people in learning how to deal with the complexities of life, and rail company revenue staff should not regard them all as trainee criminals

On balance the bit about admin costs could be left out. That said the OP's son didn't have a valid ticket - they had a Northern only ticket and used it on a TPE service and they were unable to present it when asked. To be fair there was disruption that might have excused using the Northern only ticket on TPE. Being unable to show the railcard is also an issue but this could be dealt with under the forgotton railcard policy.

 

[185143]

From a look at RealTime Trains, the only train to York around that time is the 2129 to York via Harrogate, but that ran.

The TPE that he would have got was a Newcastle bound train, running 18 minutes late, meaning the 22.29 issue would have been about 7 mins from York (Around Ulleskelf).

The York via Harrogate will almost certainly have been advertised as Poppleton rather than York. Someone with a dead phone looking up at a board would be unlikely to even consider it-that's the whole reason it's advertised as such.