Travel irregularity fine £3000

[Leehee]

Recently I travelled with LNER. And was caught using a chikd ticket, I admitted to being over the age of 16 on the spot and was given a heft £140 fine and having to buy an additional adult ticket to london. However I thought that was all o had to do and settle, but I received an email about travel irregularities and that they have identified over 20 bookings under child ticket. I know I messed up bad but as a student I simply cannot afford 3 grand fine, and I’ve been buying child tickets because I can’t afford the adult ones. I don’t know what to respond to the email with because they’ve only caught me once with a child ticket, and I’ve bought railcard adult tickets before so it’s a mixture of both, I have bought tickets for other people before as much as for myself. Please help me, I simply cannot afford £3000 fine as a student, and that amount is ridiculous since from what I’ve seen others being fined are under £500, please help me I understand the consequences I have faced already with the initial fine of £140, I have not done this ever again.

 

[Hadders]

We need to know more information to be able to advise.

Where have you been travelling from and to?

Can you upload a copy of the letter you have received (presumably from LNER?) with personal details redacted.

 

[Leehee]

This is the letter I’ve been sent

 

[SussexSeagull]

Did you get your tickets on-line? If so they they now, presumably, have your date of birth and a list of journeys you got a child ticket for when it should have been adult.

I would listen very carefully to the advice you re hopefully going to be given by some of the experts people on here.

EDIT: Later post conformed booked through their website.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well that's an impressive four years of blatant fare dodging, so I'm sorry to say that unless you have a defence, you are best off trying to pay the outstanding fares. I advise you make no comment about other, undetected offending.

Note that this is not a fine - it is a calculation of the fares you have evaded, plus a £135 fee for the company's time and effort in detecting your wrongdoing.

I would speak to your students' union and ask if there is free and independent advice, but you're stuck here. Having pillaged £3000 of fares, that's what you'll have to pay back, or be taken to court, where you'll very likely be convicted of the offence, and still likely have to pay all of the avoided fares back.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I’ve bought railcard adult tickets before so it’s a mixture of both, I have bought tickets for other people before as much as for myself.

It's reasonable for the railway to assume that if you bought the tickets, then you used them. So if you want them to believe that you bought the tickets for other people you will need to show who you bought the ticket for. And you would also need to show that whoever you bought the ticket for was entitled to use a child ticket, as otherwise someone has still dodged their fare and by letting them use your account to book a ticket at the very least you would have helped them to dodge their fare.

(A note for anyone who wants to apply legal standards here: at this point the OP is being offered an out of court settlement, so that means that the railway isn't bound to follow court rules about proof - whether to the criminal or civil standards. If the OP doesn't accept the railway's offer because they think that they are being charged for journeys that they didn't make, then the railway will be able to take the matter to court, where things will have to be proven to the criminal standard but the OP will risk conviction and a fine - not to mention much higher costs against them.)

All in all, you aren't in a strong position. As @AlterEgo suggests, it would be sensible to talk to your students union to see if there is any help available, but you may have to reconcile yourself to paying the £3k or so to solve things.

 

[Hadders]

I think you would be best consulting a solicitor about this.

I am not a lawyer but my own thoughts are:

There is evidence of sustained fare evasion over a long period of time. While the settlement figure is large it is only asking for the amount of fares that would’ve been due (although I suspect they’ve used Anytime fares rather than super off peak)

If the matter proceeds to court then the prosecution would need to prove their case beyond all reasonable doubt. Buying a child ticket isn’t an offence but using it if you’re not a child is. Saying that you were likely to have used the tickets if you bought them, or on the balance of probabilities you did isn’t sufficient. I think it would be good to ask a solicitors view about this.

Edit - @Fawkes Cat beat me to the same point in a more straightforward way.

 

[northwichcat]

London to North of England train fares are expensive unless you buy Advance tickets for specific trains. Most students wouldn't be able to afford 20 return Intercity trips to London, unless they booked in advance and chose the trains where cheap fares are available.

The one thing that'll work to your advantage as a student is most banks offer students interest free overdrafts. So if you've not already got one of those or not using it then that could be a short term solution. I notice HSBC offer up to £1000 overdraft for each university year up to £3000.

You will want to avoid getting a criminal record if you want to work in certain roles or for employers that required enhanced criminal record checks. For example, as a teacher or any role in a school.

 

[Wolfie]

London to North of England train fares are expensive unless you buy Advance tickets for specific trains. Most students wouldn't be able to afford 20 return Intercity trips to London, unless they booked in advance and chose the trains where cheap fares are available.

The one thing that'll work to your advantage as a student is most banks offer students interest free overdrafts. So if you've not already got one of those or not using it then that could be a short term solution. I notice HSBC offer up to £1000 overdraft for each university year up to £3000.

You will want to avoid getting a criminal record if you want to work in certain roles or for employers that required enhanced criminal record checks. For example, as a teacher or any role in a school.

Re your last para not to mention any post that involves national security checks e.g. civil service, contractors for Government etc.

 

[_toommm_]

I’d recommend for the future for the OP to either buy a 16-25 railcard, or switch to a student account that offers one as perk, which I think Santander still does. I’d also head the above advice about advance fares. I recently finished my degree in Leeds, and with a railcard, I can quite regularly get returns to London for £30-£40 if booked in advance.

 

[skyhigh]

I simply cannot afford £3000 fine as a student, and that amount is ridiculous since from what I’ve seen others being fined are under £500

Note that this is not a fine - it is a calculation of the fares you have evaded, plus a £135 fee for the company's time and effort in detecting your wrongdoing.

It looks like the letter has been removed, but if the OP has seriously evaded almost £3000 of fares over 4 years then it should be blatantly clear why the company are looking for that amount. The OP needs to understand that they are not the victim in this situation and that given the scale of the deliberate persistent offending it's clear why it is being taken this seriously.

I’ve been buying child tickets because I can’t afford the adult ones.

That's not an excuse.

and I’ve bought railcard adult tickets before so it’s a mixture of both

Did you have the railcard? If so, it might be worth mentioning it in mitigation as some of your purchases were correct. If you didn't, it's probably not worth bringing it up as it'll just show you were intent on fare evasion.

Given the sums, I would suggest professional legal advice would be wise before responding yourself.

 

[malc-c]

I'm no expert in this field, but would presume that the TOC have means to see if any ticket purchased was used, be that through checks by a train manager or when entering / exiting through gates, and the legal department would be very conversed with the court requirements and able to prove to the courts the number of times offences the OP committed by knowingly purchasing a child's ticket when being over 16 years of age.

My advice to the OP would be to agree to offer that the TOC have presented to avoid the matter being taken to court, which given the amount in question I would feel confident they would go down that route to recover this amount. I would also suggest they consult a solicitor conversant with this affair, however that will be an additional cost, but may result in negotiations being open with a view to possible repayment plans (again I'm not an expert in this field, and have no idea if TOCs are sympathetic to such situations). Fingers crossed they see the OP is remorseful ( although through the posts they seem to feel that they are the victim in this instance so maybe not) and willing to resolve the mater.

 

[Gloster]

As a non-expert I think that, if it is an offer of out-of-court settlement, the OP is lucky to have been offered it. For this level of evasion, considering that it appears to have been going on on a frequent basis for four (?) years, it wouldn’t have surprised me if the railway had gone straight to court. I would say: pay it, think yourself lucky to avoid court and don’t do it again.

 

[bikesntrains77]

It's good advice to speak to your student union and try to get a legal opinion.

e.g. it's often mentioned on these forums that railway offences can only be prosecuted within a certain time limit - 6 months maybe?

 

[RPI]

It's good advice to speak to your student union and try to get a legal opinion.

e.g. it's often mentioned on these forums that railway offences can only be prosecuted within a certain time limit - 6 months maybe?

It depends, if they were to bring a prosecution under the fraud act then no, they're not limited to six months. There is also now murmurings regarding using the county courts to recover these sorts of amounts which I believe also is not subject to the six month limit.

 

[Haywain]

It depends, if they were to bring a prosecution under the fraud act then no, they're not limited to six months. There is also now murmurings regarding using the county courts to recover these sorts of amounts which I believe also is not subject to the six month limit.

I guess the county courts could be used to recover such money after a criminal conviction has been obtained as that would provide good evidence that the amounts are actually owed.

 

[Wolfie]

The alternatives to paying the £3k are much much worse.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2022 ==

I guess the county courts could be used to recover such money after a criminal conviction has been obtained as that would provide good evidence that the amounts are actually owed.

It is likely that the criminal court would make a compensation order. If it didn't a criminal conviction means that the OP would effectively have no defence (except perhaps over quantum) in a civil case.

 

[AlterEgo]

I know this point is often tedious in this area of the forum, but the OP isn’t being fined. There’s no punishment being discussed in the OP’s now-removed letter.

They are being instructed to literally pay back the evaded fares - about four years’ worth and £3000+, plus £135 administration fee.

I guess the county courts could be used to recover such money after a criminal conviction has been obtained as that would provide good evidence that the amounts are actually owed.

No, the county court does not get involved at all. When convicted, the magistrate will usually set a compensation order which covers the loss suffered by the victim (which for the benefit of the OP in this case, is the train company!).

The magistrates’ court deals directly with fines and compensation orders and appoints its own bailiffs and has fines officers. Unlike nearly all other types of bailiff, a bailiff collecting a debt from a court fine or compensation order can, under some circumstances, even break into your home to recover goods if you don’t engage with the court.

 

[RPI]

I guess the county courts could be used to recover such money after a criminal conviction has been obtained as that would provide good evidence that the amounts are actually owed.

Not necessarily, a civil court doesn't have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt, however, the TOC would need more evidence than merely purchase history one would assume

 

[AndroidBango]

I fear the OP won't be back to update us, sadly.

 

[gray1404]

My advice on this one is button up and pay up. The OP is very lucky not to end up with a criminal record here.

 

[323235]

I fear the OP won't be back to update us, sadly.

They logged in on Sunday after you left this post, so they’ve read the thread virtually up to date.

Please let us know how it goes if you can @Leehee .