Travel irregularity back fine

[BuckHelp]

Hi,

I was caught traveling on an LNER service without a valid railcard, I could not access to the account at the time to purchase this (but did say I had railcard, my fault!) after an investigation I am being charged for the previous 7 journeys where my email had been used on those tickets with a railcard applied. technically my name is not on these tickets and the tickets were scanned on these journeys with no issues raised. The fine is £1.2k which I simply cannot afford but I also cannot afford for this to go to court. i have offered to pay the fines for the journey I was caught on and a lump sum of £500 (all I have) but there is no budge. Any advice please as I’m so worried!

 

[methecooldude]

Hi,

I was caught traveling on an LNER service without a valid railcard, I could not access to the account at the time to purchase this (but did say I had railcard, my fault!) after an investigation I am being charged for the previous 7 journeys where my email had been used on those tickets with a railcard applied. technically my name is not on these tickets and the tickets were scanned on these journeys with no issues raised. The fine is £1.2k which I simply cannot afford but I also cannot afford for this to go to court. i have offered to pay the fines for the journey I was caught on and a lump sum of £500 (all I have) but there is no budge. Any advice please as I’m so worried!

Did you have a valid railcard for those 7 journeys?

 

[Krokodil]

Were those other seven journeys for yourself (in possession of a railcard or not) or were the bookings for a travelling companion who had a railcard?

 

[Haywain]

Hi,

I was caught traveling on an LNER service without a valid railcard, I could not access to the account at the time to purchase this (but did say I had railcard, my fault!) after an investigation I am being charged for the previous 7 journeys where my email had been used on those tickets with a railcard applied. technically my name is not on these tickets and the tickets were scanned on these journeys with no issues raised. The fine is £1.2k which I simply cannot afford but I also cannot afford for this to go to court. i have offered to pay the fines for the journey I was caught on and a lump sum of £500 (all I have) but there is no budge. Any advice please as I’m so worried!

If you want to avoid court action then you are not in a strong position to negotiate what will be an out of court settlement, rather than a fine. Did you possess a railcard at the time, and for the other journeys? And would you be prepared to tell a court, under oath, that you did not make those other journeys?

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi,

I was caught traveling on an LNER service without a valid railcard, I could not access to the account at the time to purchase this (but did say I had railcard, my fault!) after an investigation I am being charged for the previous 7 journeys where my email had been used on those tickets with a railcard applied. technically my name is not on these tickets and the tickets were scanned on these journeys with no issues raised. The fine is £1.2k which I simply cannot afford but I also cannot afford for this to go to court. i have offered to pay the fines for the journey I was caught on and a lump sum of £500 (all I have) but there is no budge. Any advice please as I’m so worried!

Are you denying being the passenger the other 7 times?

 

[methecooldude]

Were the bookings for a travelling companion who had a railcard?

IAnd would you be prepared to tell a court, under oath, that you did not make those other journeys?

Are you denying being the passenger the other 7 times?

The OP said "tickets were scanned on these journeys" - how would they know they were scanned if they did not travel?

 

[Haywain]

The OP said "tickets were scanned on these journeys" - how would they know they were scanned if they did not travel?

The OP seemed to suggest that they could avoid paying for those journeys by claiming there was no evidence that they had made them. That seems unlikely to be the case but is important that the OP appreciates how this is being viewed by LNER, and by us.

 

[fandroid]

Hi,

I was caught traveling on an LNER service without a valid railcard, I could not access to the account at the time to purchase this (but did say I had railcard, my fault!) after an investigation I am being charged for the previous 7 journeys where my email had been used on those tickets with a railcard applied. technically my name is not on these tickets and the tickets were scanned on these journeys with no issues raised. The fine is £1.2k which I simply cannot afford but I also cannot afford for this to go to court. i have offered to pay the fines for the journey I was caught on and a lump sum of £500 (all I have) but there is no budge. Any advice please as I’m so worried!

Did LNER give you a breakdown of their total demand? Anyway, it might help us advise if you post an image of their letter on here, with all your personal details and any reference numbers redacted.

 

[Mzzzs]

It would be helpful if you post any letters and anything else relating to your case.

 

[Krokodil]

The OP said "tickets were scanned on these journeys" - how would they know they were scanned if they did not travel?

If for example the OP had bought two tickets, one with a railcard and one without in order to travel with a friend (who has a railcard). That would be a legitimate reason for having a railcard-discounted ticket in one's account history, even if the account holder has never held a railcard themselves.

This is why the OP needs to clarify exactly whose tickets these were.

 

[BuckHelp]

Hi,
Thank you all for your replies. The journeys I am being charged for are for a period of 6 months when I, the owner of the account, did not possess a railcard. However, there is no evidence to say i personally took those journeys, just that my email was used to purchase. Completely appreciate the out of court settlement fee for this case, just wondering if I have any scope to argue paying for journeys I was not issued travel irregularity notices on. I was not given a break down, just that 7 fares would total £1.2k. I also appreciate the time taken to reply, thank you!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@BuckHelp. Welcome to the forum!

Do you reckon that you could convince the magistrates that you didn't make any of these various journeys for which railcard discount was claimed, but no railcard held?

Whilst we wouldn't ever want you to self incriminate yourself, if you fail to engage with the Train Company's investigation department, you may well instead find yourself in court, and end up with a criminal record.

You may therefore wish to re-consider your position.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

You need to remember lner don't need to offer you any chance to settle, they could just go straight down the prosecution route,

Also the 1.2k isn't a fine, it's an out of court settlement that lner believe they are entitled to for evaded fares, its what they are saying they are prepared to accept to not take the matter to court

Yes they may only be able to prove one occasion in court, so in effect leaves you with 2 options, pay the £1.2k for it to all go away with no further legal consequences, or go to court and probably be found guilty for the one offence possibly more and end up with a criminal record (which you may or may not have to declare for jobs/visas etc) and a fine probably in region of several hundred pounds

 

[Llanigraham]

Hi,
Thank you all for your replies. The journeys I am being charged for are for a period of 6 months when I, the owner of the account, did not possess a railcard. However, there is no evidence to say i personally took those journeys, just that my email was used to purchase. Completely appreciate the out of court settlement fee for this case, just wondering if I have any scope to argue paying for journeys I was not issued travel irregularity notices on. I was not given a break down, just that 7 fares would total £1.2k. I also appreciate the time taken to reply, thank you!

Can you prove that you didn't make those journeys, not just to LNER, but if this went to Court to the Magistrates?

 

[AlterEgo]

It's probably worth mentioning the OP has unwisely incriminated themselves in the opening post and LNER have representatives on the forum.

As the OP has all but admitted making the journeys I recommend settling the outstanding amount, or at the very least negotiating with LNER on the sum to be recovered.

 

[furlong]

So work how the actual amount of money LNER has lost by what you did. The difference between what you should have paid and what you actually paid. Add that up for each journey. If you don't know the fares, people here can help you estimate them. How close is that total to the 1200 you say they are asking for? If it's a long way away then you should try to negotiate harder, focussing on this ACTUAL loss to the railway company, not some notional loss - present them with your own calculation of their loss.

 

[awaythrow12312]

How did you know you was being investigated? Did they tell you at the time of being checked or randomly out of the blue ?

 

[Hadders]

Hi,
Thank you all for your replies. The journeys I am being charged for are for a period of 6 months when I, the owner of the account, did not possess a railcard. However, there is no evidence to say i personally took those journeys, just that my email was used to purchase. Completely appreciate the out of court settlement fee for this case, just wondering if I have any scope to argue paying for journeys I was not issued travel irregularity notices on. I was not given a break down, just that 7 fares would total £1.2k. I also appreciate the time taken to reply, thank you!

On the face of it you are not in a strong position at all. It appears to me that you did make these journeys but you are looking for some sort of loophole where you can argue that you didn't. A strategy like this could easily unravel and leave you in a much worse position than you are in currently.

As for the seven journeys it would be helpful to know where you travelled from and to and at what time of day. That would help us to calculate whether the £1,200 you are being asked to pay is reasonable.

 

[Egg Centric]

As for the seven journeys it would be helpful to know where you travelled from and to and at what time of day. That would help us to calculate whether the £1,200 you are being asked to pay is reasonable.

Should they answer this question its current form, this appears to be making the OP potentially incriminate themselves. Unless I've missed it they've not said it was them travelling (aside from on a single incident) and on the evidence provided I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise.

@BuckHelp why can you not "afford this to go to court"? Is it a financial reason or something else?

 

[BuckHelp]

Hi,
Thanks everyone. I admit I was caught on the journey for which I was issued the travel irregularity notice, I couldn’t access or purchase the railcard and was under the impression that once I sorted it out, all I would have to do was email it over (which I did that evening) however after the investigation I didn't know was happening, I have been fined for all journeys taken in the 6 months gap I didn't have a railcard. My email/account has been used to purchase tickets for other people, of whom have rail cards. I can’t have it get that far as I am still guilty for the first journey… also don’t want to risk the repercussions of a record with the job I am in (I wouldn't be able to afford the legal help and struggle with personal issues to be strong enough to attend) I think from this forum I should deem myself as lucky to have this settled out of court, I have applied for loans to help and waiting for them to come through. I appreciate everyone’s responses! (for reference the journey was from London to Leeds, for fined for 7 journeys, is £1.2k reasonable considering I still paid for a ticket?)

 

[Hadders]

Hi,
Thanks everyone. I admit I was caught on the journey for which I was issued the travel irregularity notice, I couldn’t access or purchase the railcard and was under the impression that once I sorted it out, all I would have to do was email it over (which I did that evening) however after the investigation I didn't know was happening, I have been fined for all journeys taken in the 6 months gap I didn't have a railcard. My email/account has been used to purchase tickets for other people, of whom have rail cards. I can’t have it get that far as I am still guilty for the first journey… also don’t want to risk the repercussions of a record with the job I am in (I wouldn't be able to afford the legal help and struggle with personal issues to be strong enough to attend) I think from this forum I should deem myself as lucky to have this settled out of court, I have applied for loans to help and waiting for them to come through. I appreciate everyone’s responses! (for reference the journey was from London to Leeds, for fined for 7 journeys, is £1.2k reasonable considering I still paid for a ticket?)

Thanks for some further clarification.

You didn’t have a valid railcard at the point you boarded the train which means your ticket was invalid. If you forget your railcard you can normally send them a copy of it and that will be the end of the matter but you didn’t have a valid railcard and purchasing one after the ticket check, albeit on the same day, doesn’t change this fact.

If you have purchased tickets for other people to use then that does put a different spin on things. Why didn’t you tell LNER this to start with, and why offer to pay them £500 if this was the case?

An Anytime Single from London to Leeds is currently £160.30, which is the figure I would expect LNER to use when calculating a settlement (would’ve been a bit lower last year to be fair), so seven journeys plus an admin fee of around £100 is where I suspect they’re getting their figure from.

Finally, just to point out (before someone else does), but LNER aren’t imposing a fine. Only a court can do that as a punishment following a conviction. What LNER are offering you is an out of court settlement costing £1,200 which if you pay it will mean that LNER will not prosecute you in the magistrates court.

 

[Llanigraham]

If as you say you used your email account to buy tickets for 6 other people then they only way you are going to get LNER to accept that is to get each one of those to provide a statement of that fact.
And can I suggest in future that you don't buy tickets for other people with your address but use their addresses. That is what I do when I buy tickets from a disabled friend.

 

[WesternLancer]

If as you say you used your email account to buy tickets for 6 other people then they only way you are going to get LNER to accept that is to get each one of those to provide a statement of that fact.
And can I suggest in future that you don't buy tickets for other people with your address but use their addresses. That is what I do when I buy tickets from a disabled friend.

Yes, good advice - and if the OP bought tickets for those people with Railcard discounts, and wants to persuade LNER this was the case, and the OP knows that those people had valid Railcards for travel at the time, assuming they were friends or relatives then I suggest asking those friends for proof of the Railcard that they held (eg the Railcard ref number or a screen shot) which can be submitted by you to LNER as evidence that the tickets were bought for people with valid Railcards, and to support your story that you only did this once

However, do not make this up (ie do not get 6 mates to provide proof of their old Railcards and pretend they travelled when they did not) because if it went to court then you could be expected at least in theory, to produce those people to state to the court that they did make those journeys and you did buy their tickets. Lying to a court is WAY WAY worse than any punishment for the sort of fare evasion you may have done however.

 

[scrapy]

Whilst LNER probably don't have evidence that you made those journeys previously, they do have evidence to take you to court and successfully prosecute you for one offence. If they choose to take you to court for 8 separate offences are you prepared to stand up in court and say on oath that you did not make seven of those journeys?

If you say you didn't make those journeys LNER may well ask you for details of who did so they can corroborate your story. You are not under obligation to give those details but a court may draw its own conclusion if you don't. If you do then that person may potentially be called as a witness.

 

[AlterEgo]

LNER might simply form the view that the OP is playing silly buggers and prosecute for the one offence. I agree that the onus is on them to prove the historic allegations, which is nearly impossible after the fact, but that doesn’t change the fact the OP is in a weak position. It’s difficult to say either way how strong the case is. If it’s out and back to the same destinations each time and a regular travel pattern, one might be inclined to form the view it’s unreasonable to believe the OP only travelled once and all the other times it was someone else.

“Technically my name was not on these tickets” when proactively offering an excuse at the first instance isn’t the language of an innocent person who didn’t travel. The OP would just have said “well it wasn’t me on these other journeys” at the outset, if that was the case.

The primary motivation for the OP is that they can’t afford £1200, not a searing sense of injustice they’re being held liable for some other person’s legitimate travel. That’s why they offered to pay one outstanding fare plus £500.

I recommend engaging with LNER in a more conciliatory manner and @Hadders advice is pretty sound.

 

[Haywain]

just to point out (before someone else does), but LNER aren’t imposing a fine.

Too late! See post #4.

 

[furlong]

There's still the question of whether or not the tickets were otherwise valid in the circumstances they were used (was the railcard the only problem?), and if LNER is hoping to get more money than it strictly needs to put it back into the position it would have been in had the alleged crimes not been committed (ie making full allowance for what was already paid and the ticket the OP would actually have bought at the time if they hadn't done the wrong thing).

 

[AdamWW]

Whilst LNER probably don't have evidence that you made those journeys previously, they do have evidence to take you to court and successfully prosecute you for one offence. If they choose to take you to court for 8 separate offences are you prepared to stand up in court and say on oath that you did not make seven of those journeys?

If you say you didn't make those journeys LNER may well ask you for details of who did so they can corroborate your story. You are not under obligation to give those details but a court may draw its own conclusion if you don't. If you do then that person may potentially be called as a witness.

Would it really work like that? So far as I know the strict liability aspect refers to not having to show any intent to evade the correct fare. Surely when it comes to whether they journey was actually made it's up to the prosecution to provide evidence placing the defendant on the train, not for them to accuse them of it and require them to prove their innocence?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Would it really work like that? So far as I know the strict liability aspect refers to not having to show any intent to evade the correct fare. Surely when it comes to whether they journey was actually made it's up to the prosecution to provide evidence placing the defendant on the train, not for them to accuse them of it and require them to prove their innocence?

IANAL, but on the information available to the railway, I think there's grounds to prosecute: their understanding is that a number of railcard-discounted tickets were bought by someone who did not have a railcard.

Of course, grounds to prosecute aren't the same as grounds to convict: as @AdamWW says, if a prosecution went ahead, it would be for the prosecutor to show beyond reasonable doubt that their allegation was true. But given that going to court as the accuse isn't (as I understand it) fun, there might be an argument for the OP to share their defence ahead of time, so that the railway would understand why a prosecution wouldn't work, and decide not to take it to court in the first place.

 

[WesternLancer]

Would it really work like that? So far as I know the strict liability aspect refers to not having to show any intent to evade the correct fare. Surely when it comes to whether they journey was actually made it's up to the prosecution to provide evidence placing the defendant on the train, not for them to accuse them of it and require them to prove their innocence?

But if it went to court on one case the OP would end up paying quite a hefty sum I'd have thought anyway - and get the criminal record. I guess it would mean the OP could pay in instalments which given the point they make about affordability might be 'attractive' - but then they say they can't afford for it to go to court by which I assume they mean do not wan the criminal record - so it strikes me that the OP's optiosn are:

- pay the sum demanded, obtaining money to do so
- prove to LNER they did not do those other journeys in a clear and unambiguous / evidenced manner in the hope that LNER reduce the sum demanded
- seek to negotiate with LNER over the sum but risk the prospect of it going to court if they do so