Travel Incident Report

[Fantabulous365]

Long story short I just did something extremely foolish.

I took a train from Macclesfield to Manchester Piccadilly. Did not purchase a ticket on the train. At Piccadilly purchased a trainline ticket from Manchester Oxford Road to Piccadilly and attempted to leave the station. I was scanned and when confronted I panicked and lied, saying I had gotten on at Oxford Road before revealing that I had actually come from Macclesfield. I said I didn't have ID before remembering I had my foreign driving license and showing this. I gave my correct address. I make no defense, it was wrong and I am ashamed.


I was issued a Northern Travel Incident Report receipt, which presumably includes the things I admitted to lying about.

I was told I would receive a letter in 3 weeks and advised to do what it says quickly.

In the meantime I am extremely panicked and concerned and would like any information on how bad the outcome is likely to be.

I am aware that the lying makes this worse, and I understand that laws have recently been tightened on matters like this, so the information I can find is not necessarily up to date.

This will be my first offense, about 7 years ago I might have had to pay a penalty fare at the gate, my memory is hazy.

I hope that they are not interested in prosecution, and imagine that there will be a fine to pay out of court which will not result in a note on my criminal record.

My questions are:

1. How likely are they, in the first instance, to want to pursue prosecution/court?

2. Roughly how much are the fines for this sort of thing? Is it likely to be more than say £200?

3. Is there anything I can do in the meantime?

4. Presuming I want to cooperate at the earliest juncture if the fine is within my power to pay, what are the best-case and worst-case outcomes?

I'd be grateful for any reassurance that it won't be worse than paying say £200 and being able to put it all behind me. I am aware that I did multiple things wrong, but please I'd appreciate any reassurance anyone can provide.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

In reply to your questions:

1. Unlikely. Northern (as well as many other TOCs) always prefer out of court settlements. They might look like fines but they aren't, and most importantly, you will NOT have a criminal record for that, so don't worry about it at all.
2. Difficult to answer but it will probably be the undiscounted anytime single plus admin fees (should be around £100 plus the fare) if it's an out of court settlement
3. Stay calm and relax until the letter arrives. Then please let us know here when you receive the letter
4. Best case scenario will be an out of court settlement, where as I said in the first reply, it might look like a fine but it isn't and it's definitely not any criminal record. Worst case scenario is you get fined in court, unfortunately that is a criminal record but thankfully not as bad as you think. It's a minor offence and all you need to do is declare it to your employer, if required (and if you work). Best of all, it will be gone within a year and will not appear on a standard DBS check (only some types of jobs, such as security ones, have an enhanced DBS which may make a job there difficult because of this offence)

Don't worry about the penalty fare, as it's not a criminal record.

I hope for the best that you'll be able to reach an out of court settlement. In the meantime, I also suggest contacting @Hadders, @RPI , @AlterEgo and @Watershed , they are excellent people with much better knowledge than me who will be happy to help you if you have any further questions (if any of you are reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong with the advice given).

In the meantime, sit back, relax and enjoy your life.

 

[contrex]

In reply to your questions:

1. Unlikely. Northern (as well as many other TOCs) always prefer out of court settlements. These are fines
4. Best case scenario will be an out of court settlement, where as I said in the first reply, it's a fine

​

Despite the above, an out-of-court settlement is NOT a "fine". Only a court can impose a fine. If the train company agrees to settle out of court, that means that they agree to NOT take you to court, as long as you pay them a sum of money to cover their administration costs in investigating the matter, and also the full Anytime fare for the journey actually taken. You would not have any criminal record resulting from the matter. It may seem like a "fine" but it isn't. You would, I believe, be noted privately in the company records, though, and if you were caught again another time, they might not be inclined to settle. Others may be along to give the benefit of their knowledge about what to write and what amount you might need to pay.

​

 

[Fantabulous365]

In reply to your questions:

1. Unlikely. Northern (as well as many other TOCs) always prefer out of court settlements. These are fines but you will NOT have a criminal record for that, so don't worry about it at all.
2. Difficult to answer but it will probably be the undiscounted anytime single plus admin fees (should be around £100 plus the fare) if it's an out of court settlement
3. Stay calm and relax until the letter arrives. Then please let us know here when you receive the letter
4. Best case scenario will be an out of court settlement, where as I said in the first reply, it's a fine but won't attract any criminal record. Worst case scenario is you get fined in court, unfortunately that is a criminal record but thankfully not as bad as you think. It's a minor offence and all you need to do is declare it to your employer, if required (and if you work). Best of all, it will be gone within a year and will not appear on a standard DBS check (only some types of jobs, such as security ones, have an enhanced DBS which may make a job there difficult because of this offence)

Don't worry about the penalty fare, as it's not a criminal record.

I hope for the best that you'll be able to reach an out of court settlement. In the meantime, I also suggest contacting @Hadders, @RPI , @AlterEgo and @Watershed , they are excellent people with much better knowledge than me who will be happy to help you if you have any further questions.

In the meantime, sit back, relax and enjoy your life.

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. You have been a great comfort. I'd looked at other posts but was worried that the lying (and subsequent admitting of this) made this a more serious matter than standard penalty fare dodging.

I will let you know when I get the letter, and post it here. Given how stressful I've found it to have this go away for less than £150 and chalk up as a lesson learned will be a huge relief. I appreciate your kindness. Thank you again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Mar 2023 ==

​

Despite the above, an out-of-court settlement is NOT a "fine". Only a court can impose a fine. If the train company agrees to settle out of court, that means that they agree to NOT take you to court, as long as you pay them a sum of money to cover their administration costs in investigating the matter, and also the full Anytime fare for the journey actually taken. You would not have any criminal record resulting from the matter. It may seem like a "fine" but it isn't. You would, I believe, be noted privately in the company records, though, and if you were caught again another time, they might not be inclined to settle. Others may be along to give the benefit of their knowledge about what to write and what amount you might need to pay.

​

Thank you for the clarification, this was how I understood it.

 

[WesternLancer]

Bear in mind they will check your on line ticket purchases (from any retailer) to see if there are records of any other things like this. You say it was 1st time, so assume they will not find anything else. But you may be wise to check your onw purchasing history to see if anything else might look suspicious to them.

 

[30907]

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. You have been a great comfort. I'd looked at other posts but was worried that the lying (and subsequent admitting of this) made this a more serious matter than standard penalty fare dodging.

Short-faring IS more serious which is why it is typically NOT dealt with by a Penalty Fare.
I rather think most train companies accept that people will lie - it goes back to the Cain and Abel story in the Bible after all - but as WesternLancer has just said, they will take the opportunity to check their records and this may affect the amount they suggest as a settlement.
FWIW the lowest amount of administrative costs I've seen reported on here recently is £50 and the highest £175, neither being on Northern.

 

[Fantabulous365]

I have now received a letter from Northern, please see attached.

First thing, following advice I did search my previous purchase records, and the only thing I think that will be viewed with suspicion was the same journey made as purported on this occasion: that is to say Manchester Oxford Road to Manchester Piccadilly, in June of last year. This was a genuine journey but I can understand why it may be viewed with suspicion. I recall the journey only vaguely, so it's hard to say how I could prove that it was legitimate. Everything else should appear valid as far as I can tell. Is it worth getting ahead of the issue and bringing this up in my initial reply?

Reading the letter my understanding is that I can either fill in the box with the details below and handwrite a statement on the back and post it to the listed address postcode BD1 1BR,

OR

I can email them the same at drpu@northernrailway.co.uk


Am I correct? Does it make a major difference which medium I used? I'm aware in some situations a physical letter is taken more seriously.

Personally, I would prefer email as
A: I have terrible handwriting,
B: I can keep a better record with a digital trail by email, and
C: I may be away for 2-3 weeks in the next two months and don't want to risk missing a letter or having to ask my landlord (who I live with) to open my post and see that I have gotten into trouble. That being said, I know my replying via email doesn't necessarily mean they'll stop sending letters. In fact I imagine they will only write paper letters. If this is not settled by the time I go away I imagine my best course of action will be to contact Royal Mail and have my post forwarded.

If it makes little difference I imagine I should start my email with the information outlined at the bottom of the letter for their reference (Surname, address etc)? And I imagine I should put their supplied reference number in the subject field.

I was planning on a letter as follows:-

To Whom it May Concern,

Regarding your letter dated 08 March 2023, I made a journey from Macclesfield to Manchester Piccadilly on Sunday 05 March 2023. Once at Piccadilly I foolishly purchased an e-ticket from Manchester Oxford Road in order to leave the station. I was at the time upset over an argument with a friend and wanted to get out of the station as quickly as possible. This is in no way a defense, but I hope gives some insight into how I came to panic when confronted by staff and misrepresented my journey, as well as briefly forgetting I had a foreign driving license I hadn't used in years with me as a form of ID. I imagine my report from the staff at the time makes mention of my considerable distress.

As stated above I make no defense of my actions. In my haste to leave the station I claimed a cheaper fare and was not initially honest when confronted. I am deeply remorseful, and I only hope that my otherwise clean record may grant me some leniency. I am keen to settle this matter and my debt and hope to avoid any further legal action.

Yours Sincerely,


Does this email suit? Should I remove my explanation? I know they won't be interested in any sob story, but I hope it serves to explain that this was out of character and not pre-meditated.

Thanks for your time, and I appreciate any and all advice.

 

[Fantabulous365]

Short-faring IS more serious which is why it is typically NOT dealt with by a Penalty Fare.
I rather think most train companies accept that people will lie - it goes back to the Cain and Abel story in the Bible after all - but as WesternLancer has just said, they will take the opportunity to check their records and this may affect the amount they suggest as a settlement.
FWIW the lowest amount of administrative costs I've seen reported on here recently is £50 and the highest £175, neither being on Northern.

I appreciate your candour, I have followed @WesternLancer 's advice and gone through my records.

 

[Fantabulous365]

Bear in mind they will check your on line ticket purchases (from any retailer) to see if there are records of any other things like this. You say it was 1st time, so assume they will not find anything else. But you may be wise to check your onw purchasing history to see if anything else might look suspicious to them.

Thank you for your advice. I have taken the time to do so, and there is only one potential issue, I have written about this and posted an update above.

 

[Fantabulous365]

In reply to your questions:

1. Unlikely. Northern (as well as many other TOCs) always prefer out of court settlements. These are fines but you will NOT have a criminal record for that, so don't worry about it at all.
2. Difficult to answer but it will probably be the undiscounted anytime single plus admin fees (should be around £100 plus the fare) if it's an out of court settlement
3. Stay calm and relax until the letter arrives. Then please let us know here when you receive the letter
4. Best case scenario will be an out of court settlement, where as I said in the first reply, it's a fine but won't attract any criminal record. Worst case scenario is you get fined in court, unfortunately that is a criminal record but thankfully not as bad as you think. It's a minor offence and all you need to do is declare it to your employer, if required (and if you work). Best of all, it will be gone within a year and will not appear on a standard DBS check (only some types of jobs, such as security ones, have an enhanced DBS which may make a job there difficult because of this offence)

Don't worry about the penalty fare, as it's not a criminal record.

I hope for the best that you'll be able to reach an out of court settlement. In the meantime, I also suggest contacting @Hadders, @RPI , @AlterEgo and @Watershed , they are excellent people with much better knowledge than me who will be happy to help you if you have any further questions (if any of you are reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong with the advice given).

In the meantime, sit back, relax and enjoy your life.

Thank you again for your advice here, it was a great comfort at the time.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Thank you again for your advice here, it was a great comfort at the time.

It's my pleasure

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for your advice. I have taken the time to do so, and there is only one potential issue, I have written about this and posted an update above.

One incident some fair time ago - that you say you are fairly confident was a legit journey - if they are not asking about it - don't mention it unless they do.

as to other point - I think must be OK to e-mail a typed reply to them - but if you want belt and braces, cut and past the same reply into a doc, print it and post it too if you wish - ensure it has all your ref numbers and address etc so they can match it.

If you wish to edit your 'sob story' part I suppose you could boil it down to being 'distressed on the day for personal reasons' but the key point to make, as you do, is that this is an explanation, not an excuse, so keep that bit in.

Explain what happened in an honest way and end up by asking if you can settle the matter without recourse to court action. Apologise. Assure them it won't happen again.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

 

[railtxnr]

Bear in mind they will check your on line ticket purchases (from any retailer) to see if there are records of any other things like this. You say it was 1st time, so assume they will not find anything else. But you may be wise to check your onw purchasing history to see if anything else might look suspicious to them.

Quick question on this which may be relevant to the OP: read on other threads that summary offences have a 6 month time limit (may be missing some specific detail) so realistically would the OP only need to review their history over that timeframe?

 

[30907]

Quick question on this which may be relevant to the OP: read on other threads that summary offences have a 6 month time limit (may be missing some specific detail) so realistically would the OP only need to review their history over that timeframe?

That would only be relevant if they suddenly decided to prosecute separately for an incident last summer.
There are cases on here where serious repeat offenders have been invited to have multiple previous offences "taken into consideration" when being prosecuted for one offence, but still only the one offence is charged.
Multiple offences could well affect the scale of a settlement, though.

In this case, it is IMO vanishingly unlikely that they will be interested in a possible offence last year.

 

[some bloke]

I foolishly purchased an e-ticket from Manchester Oxford Road in order to leave the station. I was at the time upset over an argument with a friend and wanted to get out of the station as quickly as possible.

In my haste to leave the station I claimed a cheaper fare

Perhaps I'm missing something: why was it faster to buy the wrong ticket than the right one?

(putting aside the issue of needing to buy the "right one" before travel)

insight into how I came to panic when confronted by staff and misrepresented my journey

Are you sure it was panic that caused you to misrepresent the journey?

You told them the same journey as you had bought. Regardless of panic, weren't you aware that telling them the actual origin station would tell them you had the wrong ticket - are you saying that if you hadn't panicked, you would have told the truth?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Perhaps I'm missing something: why was it faster to buy the wrong ticket than the right one?

Maybe the fact that a day single from Manchester Oxford Road to Manchester Piccadilly is £2.80 whereas one from Macclesfield to Manchester Piccadilly is some £9.00 more (at £11.80) might possibly be a factor.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's really important your letter makes sense and if things are untrue it will be easy to spot and make Northern less inclined to settle outside of the court system.

I was planning on a letter as follows:-

To Whom it May Concern,

Regarding your letter dated 08 March 2023, I made a journey from Macclesfield to Manchester Piccadilly on Sunday 05 March 2023. Once at Piccadilly I foolishly purchased an e-ticket from Manchester Oxford Road in order to leave the station.

OK, this fits with what happened so far.

I was at the time upset over an argument with a friend and wanted to get out of the station as quickly as possible.

How is this relevant to short faring? Why hadn't you purchased a ticket beforehand - why didn't you have a ticket from Macclesfield anyway? There is a ticket office and machines available there and you must purchase your ticket before you board if there are suitable opportunities to do so.

This is in no way a defense, but I hope gives some insight into how I came to panic when confronted by staff and misrepresented my journey, as well as briefly forgetting I had a foreign driving license I hadn't used in years with me as a form of ID.

This may explain why you were flustered when you were stopped in the midst of committing the offence, but it does not explain why you short fared.

I imagine my report from the staff at the time makes mention of my considerable distress.

Leave this part out, it's not relevant.

As stated above I make no defense of my actions. In my haste to leave the station I claimed a cheaper fare

But why? Why is it quicker to do this? It isn't at all - you did this on your phone and were perfectly able to buy your ticket from Macclesfield. You travelled from Macclesfield without a ticket, committing one offence already by boarding the train without one, and committed a more serious one by blatantly attempting to avoid your fare. You short-fared in an attempt to avoid paying for your whole journey. No reasonable person travelling from Macclesfield to Manchester thinks they have discharged their obligation to pay the fare by buying the cheapest possible ticket from Piccadilly to Oxford Road.

and was not initially honest when confronted.

...and I suggest aren't being wholly honest in this letter. Front up and simply admit to short faring and apologise for it.

I am deeply remorseful, and I only hope that my otherwise clean record may grant me some leniency. I am keen to settle this matter and my debt and hope to avoid any further legal action.

Let's just rejig this a bit. "Deeply remorseful" is the sort of thing people write in letters but it's not especially sincere. Say something like:

I am sorry to have caused you the time and trouble in handling this matter. I know it is my responsibility to always purchase the correct ticket for my journey; this is my first time being dealt with by your revenue protection staff and it has been an experience I am not keen to repeat. I ask that you consider settling this matter outside of the courts, and am happy to pay the outstanding fare and your costs incurred in processing my case.

 

[Fantabulous365]

Perhaps I'm missing something: why was it faster to buy the wrong ticket than the right one?

(putting aside the issue of needing to buy the "right one" before travel)


Are you sure it was panic that caused you to misrepresent the journey?

You told them the same journey as you had bought. Regardless of panic, weren't you aware that telling them the actual origin station would tell them you had the wrong ticket - are you saying that if you hadn't panicked, you would have told the truth?

Honestly I started to type in Macclesfield, got as far as 'ma' and manchester oxford road popped up just above where i was typing and in a moment of madness I just thought 'sod it' and clicked on it to go through. Partly because my phone is very janky and correctly typing things is a haphazard affair. I'm aware it might not sound very plausible but it is what it is. Like I say, it is no defence, I acted from expediency and in so doing broke all the rules. When confronted I mistook the initial questioning for my qr code not having worked properly and so doubled down on the lie and in an already emotional state just went into full panic mode before confessing everything. Far from my finest hour.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2023 ==

Maybe the fact that a day single from Manchester Oxford Road to Manchester Piccadilly is £2.80 whereas one from Macclesfield to Manchester Piccadilly is some £9.00 more (at £11.80) might possibly be a factor.

That would certainly be my assumption from your point of view. The truth was more along the lines of expediency (as I've posted above), however, if the fastest click had cost me more, I'm certain expediency would have taken a backseat to cost. None of it is defensible.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

That would certainly be my assumption from your point of view. The truth was more along the lines of expediency (as I've posted above), however, if the fastest click had cost me more, I'm certain expediency would have taken a backseat to cost. None of it is defensible.

Noted what you say, just that it does appear that you purchased one of the cheapest possible online tickets available in order to try to get through the barriers at Manchester Piccadilly. Northern's Revenue Enforcement team will quite possibly think this also.

Hopefully, you will be able to negotiate a so-called "out of court settlement" with Northern. If so, noting that this outcome is not guaranteed, you can expect to have to pay them a low three figure admin fee plus the cost of the unpaid anytime single fare from Macclesfield, so maybe a total of £111.90.

 

[Fantabulous365]

How is this relevant to short faring? Why hadn't you purchased a ticket beforehand - why didn't you have a ticket from Macclesfield anyway? There is a ticket office and machines available there and you must purchase your ticket before you board if there are suitable opportunities to do so.

At Macclesfield I had to jump straight on the train, and there was no ticket inspector to purchase from. Perhaps I should have missed my train in order to wait and get a ticket from the office. I'll certainly be more careful in the future. I tend not to buy tickets on my phone as it is a bit janky as mentioned above, the battery is completely buggered and will often die without warning which leaves me high and dry. At Piccadilly I did end up going for an e-ticket partly because there was little chance of the phone dying in the few minutes till I could leave the station. Perhaps this is all irrelevant, but if you personally are keen for the details there you are.

But why? Why is it quicker to do this? It isn't at all - you did this on your phone and were perfectly able to buy your ticket from Macclesfield. You travelled from Macclesfield without a ticket, committing one offence already by boarding the train without one, and committed a more serious one by blatantly attempting to avoid your fare. You short-fared in an attempt to avoid paying for your whole journey. No reasonable person travelling from Macclesfield to Manchester thinks they have discharged their obligation to pay the fare by buying the cheapest possible ticket from Piccadilly to Oxford Road.

I have addressed the expediency above, I'm aware it may sound implausible and is perhaps generally irrelevant. And as I acknowledge above I'm sure I wouldn't have picked that option had it been more expensive. It was the wrong thing to do, and expediency is not an excuse to break the rules. The ticket was actually from Oxford Road to Piccadilly, not vice versa. I am sorry if I was unclear on that.

Let's just rejig this a bit. "Deeply remorseful" is the sort of thing people write in letters but it's not especially sincere. Say something like:

I am sorry to have caused you the time and trouble in handling this matter. I know it is my responsibility to always purchase the correct ticket for my journey; this is my first time being dealt with by your revenue protection staff and it has been an experience I am not keen to repeat. I ask that you consider settling this matter outside of the courts, and am happy to pay the outstanding fare and your costs incurred in processing my case.

This is helpful, thank you.

To address the tenor of your note generally, Whatever the circumstances I'm not seeking to defend my actions, so perhaps explanations (such as there are) are unhelpful. Since I've had to reply to specifics in yours and others' posts I don't want to say anything in the letter that will require further explanation. At the end of the day 'saving myself 10 seconds' is not a valid justification.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2023 ==

Noted what you say, just that it does appear that you purchased one of the cheapest possible online tickets available in order to try to get through the barriers at Manchester Piccadilly. Northern's Revenue Enforcement team will quite possibly think this also.

Hopefully, you will be able to negotiate a so-called "out of court settlement" with Northern. If so, noting that this outcome is not guaranteed, you can expect to have to pay them a low three figure admin fee plus the cost of the unpaid anytime single fare from Macclesfield, so maybe a total of £111.90.

I agree, that would be my assumption as well, and to be frank does it really make any difference? The reason why doesn't really matter.

If it does end up being that low a figure without anything on my record I'll consider it a relatively small cost for a very upsetting life lesson.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2023 ==

One incident some fair time ago - that you say you are fairly confident was a legit journey - if they are not asking about it - don't mention it unless they do.

as to other point - I think must be OK to e-mail a typed reply to them - but if you want belt and braces, cut and past the same reply into a doc, print it and post it too if you wish - ensure it has all your ref numbers and address etc so they can match it.

If you wish to edit your 'sob story' part I suppose you could boil it down to being 'distressed on the day for personal reasons' but the key point to make, as you do, is that this is an explanation, not an excuse, so keep that bit in.

Explain what happened in an honest way and end up by asking if you can settle the matter without recourse to court action. Apologise. Assure them it won't happen again.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Thank you for taking the time. I may end up belt and bracing it. Honestly I feel like the defense is so silly, I'd almost rather say "I set out that day with an intent to defraud wherever possible" if it got this all over and done with sooner. I appreciate your tone and well wishes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2023 ==

That would only be relevant if they suddenly decided to prosecute separately for an incident last summer.
There are cases on here where serious repeat offenders have been invited to have multiple previous offences "taken into consideration" when being prosecuted for one offence, but still only the one offence is charged.
Multiple offences could well affect the scale of a settlement, though.

In this case, it is IMO vanishingly unlikely that they will be interested in a possible offence last year.

Thank you, I suppose it's best to leave it and address it should they raise it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2023 ==

Having taken on everyone's feedback I have rejigged the letter, I'd appreciate any thoughts @AlterEgo @Mcr Warrior @30907 @WesternLancer @SouthEastBuses etc. Perhaps I should forego any explanation at all, as it's neither particularly plausible or mitigating. If I do include it though perhaps this works:-

To Whom it May Concern,

Regarding your letter dated 08 March 2023, I made a journey from Macclesfield to Manchester Piccadilly on Sunday 05 March 2023. I had no time to purchase a ticket from Macclesfield before the train departed, and saw no conductor to purchase a ticket on the train. Once at Piccadilly I purchased an e-ticket from Manchester Oxford Road in order to leave the station.

On the day in question I was distressed for personal reasons, and acting foolishly clicked the nearest option that came up on my phone having begun to type Macclesfield, which was Manchester Oxford Road. I knew that it was short faring and went ahead anyway. I offer no defense for this, nor for not immediately coming clean when I panicked upon being confronted. I behaved wrongly from start to finish.

I am sorry to have caused you to take the time and trouble in handling this matter. I know it is my responsibility to always purchase the correct ticket for my journey; this is my first time being dealt with by your revenue protection staff and it has been an experience I am not keen to repeat. I am deeply ashamed of my actions and assure you it will never happen again. I ask that you consider settling this matter outside of the courts, and am happy to pay the outstanding fare and your costs incurred in processing my case.

Yours Sincerely,

 

[WesternLancer]

At Macclesfield I had to jump straight on the train, and there was no ticket inspector to purchase from. Perhaps I should have missed my train in order to wait and get a ticket from the office. I'll certainly be more careful in the future. I tend not to buy tickets on my phone as it is a bit janky as mentioned above, the battery is completely buggered and will often die without warning which leaves me high and dry. At Piccadilly I did end up going for an e-ticket partly because there was little chance of the phone dying in the few minutes till I could leave the station. Perhaps this is all irrelevant, but if you personally are keen for the details there you are.


I have addressed the expediency above, I'm aware it may sound implausible and is perhaps generally irrelevant. And as I acknowledge above I'm sure I wouldn't have picked that option had it been more expensive. It was the wrong thing to do, and expediency is not an excuse to break the rules. The ticket was actually from Oxford Road to Piccadilly, not vice versa. I am sorry if I was unclear on that.


This is helpful, thank you.

To address the tenor of your note generally, Whatever the circumstances I'm not seeking to defend my actions, so perhaps explanations (such as there are) are unhelpful. Since I've had to reply to specifics in yours and others' posts I don't want to say anything in the letter that will require further explanation. At the end of the day 'saving myself 10 seconds' is not a valid justification.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2023 ==


I agree, that would be my assumption as well, and to be frank does it really make any difference? The reason why doesn't really matter.

If it does end up being that low a figure without anything on my record I'll consider it a relatively small cost for a very upsetting life lesson.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2023 ==


Thank you for taking the time. I may end up belt and bracing it. Honestly I feel like the defense is so silly, I'd almost rather say "I set out that day with an intent to defraud wherever possible" if it got this all over and done with sooner. I appreciate your tone and well wishes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2023 ==


Thank you, I suppose it's best to leave it and address it should they raise it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2023 ==

Having taken on everyone's feedback I have rejigged the letter, I'd appreciate any thoughts @AlterEgo @Mcr Warrior @30907 @WesternLancer @SouthEastBuses etc. Perhaps I should forego any explanation at all, as it's neither particularly plausible or mitigating. If I do include it though perhaps this works:-

To Whom it May Concern,

Regarding your letter dated 08 March 2023, I made a journey from Macclesfield to Manchester Piccadilly on Sunday 05 March 2023. I had no time to purchase a ticket from Macclesfield before the train departed, and saw no conductor to purchase a ticket on the train. Once at Piccadilly I purchased an e-ticket from Manchester Oxford Road in order to leave the station.

On the day in question I was distressed for personal reasons, and acting foolishly clicked the nearest option that came up on my phone having begun to type Macclesfield, which was Manchester Oxford Road. I knew that it was short faring and went ahead anyway. I offer no defense for this, nor for not immediately coming clean when I panicked upon being confronted. I behaved wrongly from start to finish.

I am sorry to have caused you to take the time and trouble in handling this matter. I know it is my responsibility to always purchase the correct ticket for my journey; this is my first time being dealt with by your revenue protection staff and it has been an experience I am not keen to repeat. I am deeply ashamed of my actions and assure you it will never happen again. I ask that you consider settling this matter outside of the courts, and am happy to pay the outstanding fare and your costs incurred in processing my case.

Yours Sincerely,

Your revision seems OK - and under the circs there's not a lot more to say really - you have responded honestly and in an open manner to questions put to you on the forum (obv ppl are posing these q's as they are the sort of thing you might expect staff in Northern's revenue protection team to think about) - however, northern seem often prepared to settle with people who have not come to their attention before and engage in the process, as you are doing, so I suspect this will be offered to you tho it is not guaranteed.

For future ref - as I am sure you have realised by now - the actual offence in England (and it's a criminal offence thanks to some Victorian era legislation) is stepping on the train without having a ticket. So yes, they would expect you to have caught the next train if you did not allow enough time to buy one at ticket office / ticket machine / your phone etc before boarding.

What follows is mostly for context or your wider interest - Things are not made less any confusing because of the widespread approach for people to be able to buy tickets from guards on board - a policy that dates back many years and certainly to British Rail days when they introduced a concept called 'pay trains' back in the 1970s or before, as a way of saving the costs of having staffed station ticket offices at the vast majority of railway stations, which is how things were before that time. As part of the government's desire to reduce current railway operating costs they would ideally like many train services to be operated without guards at all (which is part of the reason behind some of the recent railway strikes) and thus the government is trying to get the train operating companies to move towards a system of Penalty fares for people who don't hold tickets when on the train, rather than guards selling tickets. But the approach is fluid, so whilst that helps anyone who has the chance to buy from a guard en route, it can seem confusing to people who then find themselves on the receiving end of a Penalty Fare. Tho Penalty Fares are not generally offered to people they suspect of deliberate fare evasion, and short faring is always going to fit that category in their eyes. But this background is rather drifting off topic....

 

[Fantabulous365]

Your revision seems OK - and under the circs there's not a lot more to say really - you have responded honestly and in an open manner to questions put to you on the forum (obv ppl are posing these q's as they are the sort of thing you might expect staff in Northern's revenue protection team to think about) - however, northern seem often prepared to settle with people who have not come to their attention before and engage in the process, as you are doing, so I suspect this will be offered to you tho it is not guaranteed.

For future ref - as I am sure you have realised by now - the actual offence in England (and it's a criminal offence thanks to some Victorian era legislation) is stepping on the train without having a ticket. So yes, they would expect you to have caught the next train if you did not allow enough time to buy one at ticket office / ticket machine / your phone etc before boarding.

What follows is mostly for context or your wider interest - Things are not made less any confusing because of the widespread approach for people to be able to buy tickets from guards on board - a policy that dates back many years and certainly to British Rail days when they introduced a concept called 'pay trains' back in the 1970s or before, as a way of saving the costs of having staffed station ticket offices at the vast majority of railway stations, which is how things were before that time. As part of the government's desire to reduce current railway operating costs they would ideally like many train services to be operated without guards at all (which is part of the reason behind some of the recent railway strikes) and thus the government is trying to get the train operating companies to move towards a system of Penalty fares for people who don't hold tickets when on the train, rather than guards selling tickets. But the approach is fluid, so whilst that helps anyone who has the chance to buy from a guard en route, it can seem confusing to people who then find themselves on the receiving end of a Penalty Fare. Tho Penalty Fares are not generally offered to people they suspect of deliberate fare evasion, and short faring is always going to fit that category in their eyes. But this background is rather drifting off topic....

I was genuinely unaware of this, how do they reconcile this when many stations do not have a ticket office/machine etc? My assumption was that the law expects you to buy a ticket at the first reasonable opportunity.

 

[AlterEgo]

I was genuinely unaware of this, how do they reconcile this when many stations do not have a ticket office/machine etc? My assumption was that the law expects you to buy a ticket at the first reasonable opportunity.

The law requires you to purchase a ticket at the first opportunity, yes. Opportunity in this context is *either* a ticket office or machine which accepts a method of payment available to you.

Failure to do so and boarding a train ticketless constitutes an offence under the railway bylaws. Doing anything like short faring or doughnutting (leaving a “hole” in your ticketed journey), doctoring tickets etc, is a more serious offence of attempting to evade the fare under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

 

[some bloke]

@Fantabulous365 , thank you for all the replies. We all do stupid things.

I think this version is much better.

You could start with "Thank you for your letter of...", as it may seem more conciliatory

- and put something like "I behaved wrongly in a number of ways", as "start to finish" might convey an impression that your intention was dishonest from the start of the journey.

They will be used to people lying - it's easy to imagine people not immediately owning up. They won't think you are super-evil.

If this letter doesn't work, you can try again - you mentioned this being out of character, and if it came to it you could get character references. Even without those, people do get settlements when they didn't the first time. Members on this forum won't be surprised if you get a settlement the first time anyway.

 

[WesternLancer]

I was genuinely unaware of this, how do they reconcile this when many stations do not have a ticket office/machine etc? My assumption was that the law expects you to buy a ticket at the first reasonable opportunity.

Yes, fair enough, there will be many people who think the same as you - tho I think you will find that a very large number of stations do now have ticket machines - Northern Rail for one has had a major roll out of them over last 2 to 3 years, and I think this is generally the case with many other operators over last few years. There are of course still stations without them, but I'm not sure how many as a percentage. They will be stations with a low footfall I would expect.

Even if they are ticket machines that do not take cash and you only use cash you are supposed to get a 'permit to travel' from them with Northern to proove you attempted to buy before you boarded, or you can still find yourself getting a penalty (various cases on here in the Leeds area where people have fallen foul of this it seems).

 

[Fantabulous365]

@Fantabulous365 , thank you for all the replies. We all do stupid things.

I think this version is much better.

You could start with "Thank you for your letter of...", as it may seem more conciliatory

- and put something like "I behaved wrongly in a number of ways", as "start to finish" might convey an impression that your intention was dishonest from the start of the journey.

They will be used to people lying - it's easy to imagine people not immediately owning up. They won't think you are super-evil.

If this letter doesn't work, you can try again - you mentioned this being out of character, and if it came to it you could get character references. Even without those, people do get settlements when they didn't the first time. Members on this forum won't be surprised if you get a settlement the first time anyway.

Thank you, these are excellent notes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Mar 2023 ==

Yes, fair enough, there will be many people who think the same as you - tho I think you will find that a very large number of stations do now have ticket machines - Northern Rail for one has had a major roll out of them over last 2 to 3 years, and I think this is generally the case with many other operators over last few years. There are of course still stations without them, but I'm not sure how many as a percentage. They will be stations with a low footfall I would expect.

Even if they are ticket machines that do not take cash and you only use cash you are supposed to get a 'permit to travel' from them with Northern to proove you attempted to buy before you boarded, or you can still find yourself getting a penalty (various cases on here in the Leeds area where people have fallen foul of this it seems).

Having grown up in a rural area where unmanned, dual-platform stations without ticket machines are the norm, I suppose my perspective is biased. Regardless, I'll probably avoid rail travel from now on unless I can secure a ticket in advance.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you, these are excellent notes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Mar 2023 ==


Having grown up in a rural area where unmanned, dual-platform stations without ticket machines are the norm, I suppose my perspective is biased. Regardless, I'll probably avoid rail travel from now on unless I can secure a ticket in advance.

Someone should probably start a thread on the forum 'where is the most remote station with a ticket machine?'

Anyway - good luck with your dialogue over the incident, hope it gets resolved without too onerous a penalty.

 

[30907]

Thank you, these are excellent notes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Mar 2023 ==


Having grown up in a rural area where unmanned, dual-platform stations without ticket machines are the norm, I suppose my perspective is biased. Regardless, I'll probably avoid rail travel from now on unless I can secure a ticket in advance.

Which means buying online (I can do it walking down to the station!) or allowing an extra 5min.

 

[Fantabulous365]

Which means buying online (I can do it walking down to the station!) or allowing an extra 5min.

Yeah, given my phone's utterly unpredictable battery I simply can't guarantee that buying online is going to stand me in good stead for return journeys. Hopefully @WesternLancer is correct and stations without options aren't a thing anymore.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Mar 2023 ==

Someone should probably start a thread on the forum 'where is the most remote station with a ticket machine?'

Anyway - good luck with your dialogue over the incident, hope it gets resolved without too onerous a penalty.

Appreciated, I'll post an update as and when. Many thanks to everyone for all their help.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yeah, given my phone's utterly unpredictable battery I simply can't guarantee that buying online is going to stand me in good stead for return journeys. Hopefully @WesternLancer is correct and stations without options aren't a thing anymore.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Mar 2023 ==


Appreciated, I'll post an update as and when. Many thanks to everyone for all their help.

Yes, if a station has not facility to buy a ticket (and you can not be forced to pay by card if the machine does not take cash, but bear in mind they may expect you to get a 'permit' when you can not pay if you only have cash, or indeed a card that does not work for example) then the 'buy at 1st opportunity' rule that you cited before still applies - eg from guard or station where you have to change trains, if time permits, or at destination. This includes machines that are not working. Tho if your phone is up to it a photo of a non working machine would be a safeguard if possible to take a photo.