Travel Incident Report

[Helen1976]

My 19 year old son who has autism was travelling between 2 local stations yesterday morning. He has a valid 16-25 digital railcard. The ticket inspector (I presume?) checked his ticket and asked my son to show his railcard. At this point my son became flustered and forgot how to access the railcard on his phone. As long as he has had the railcard he has never been asked to show it with his ticket, so I think this took him by surprise (although I appreciate you need to present your railcard when requested).
The member of rail staff became quite agitated and instead of giving my son a little bit of time to search for the app on his phone became quite aggressive. My son managed to find the email that showed he had purchased a railcard but as it was a short journey, he had not found the railcard app to show his railcard by the time he needed to get off. He told me that he was scared that the railway employee wasn’t going to let him leave the train but he eventually did and issued him with a Travel Incident Report. He told my son “you’l receive something in the post but nothing will come of it”. Any advice on this? My son does have a valid railcard and I have shown him again where it is on his phone but this has knocked both of our already shaky confidence with regards to him travelling alone in the train. Can my son be prosecuted for not showing his railcard or will proof that it exists be enough to resolve this?

 

[jfollows]

See https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf, specifically:

8.5 If you are travelling with a Railcard discounted Ticket and are unable to present the Railcard when asked by the staff or authorised agents of a Train Company, you will be treated as having joined a train without a valid Ticket and Conditions 9.1 – 9.5 will apply.
8.6 However, if you were unable to present the Railcard because you had forgotten to carry it on that particular journey or mislaid it, the Train Company concerned will refund any fare or Penalty Fare paid in accordance with Condition 10.
8.7 In order to claim such a refund, you will need to contact the customer service department of the Train Company that charged you the additional fare or Penalty Fare, providing the full details of your Railcard, together with the additional Tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices. A maximum of one such claim will be considered in any 12-month period.

It looks like your son wasn't made to pay anything extra, so you won't be needing to get a refund, but essentially he gets one "life" for travelling without being able to show a railcard for a discounted ticket, so he just needs to be sure he doesn't make the same mistake again.
Others will advise further on any specifics relating to a Travel Incident Report, but with luck it will require your son to respond with proof of the railcard and an acknowledgement that it won't happen again.

Also, depending on your son's circumstances, you may find it easier to get a plastic 16-25 railcard next time, I personally have a plastic railcard and find it much easier to use than I would a digital one. However that may not be the case for your son.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Of no use now, but for future reference, if you buy it through the trainline app (it's the same price) and buy an e-ticket with them then there's a promt to "show railcard" on the ticket page, just click one button. If you get a paper ticket, or an e-ticket from elsewhere, then the railcard is still there in the app as now, just a different app.

 

[WesternLancer]

My 19 year old son who has autism was travelling between 2 local stations yesterday morning. He has a valid 16-25 digital railcard. The ticket inspector (I presume?) checked his ticket and asked my son to show his railcard. At this point my son became flustered and forgot how to access the railcard on his phone. As long as he has had the railcard he has never been asked to show it with his ticket, so I think this took him by surprise (although I appreciate you need to present your railcard when requested).
The member of rail staff became quite agitated and instead of giving my son a little bit of time to search for the app on his phone became quite aggressive. My son managed to find the email that showed he had purchased a railcard but as it was a short journey, he had not found the railcard app to show his railcard by the time he needed to get off. He told me that he was scared that the railway employee wasn’t going to let him leave the train but he eventually did and issued him with a Travel Incident Report. He told my son “you’l receive something in the post but nothing will come of it”. Any advice on this? My son does have a valid railcard and I have shown him again where it is on his phone but this has knocked both of our already shaky confidence with regards to him travelling alone in the train. Can my son be prosecuted for not showing his railcard or will proof that it exists be enough to resolve this?

Hi - welcome to the forum - you may need some ongoing help with this and if so ppl here will be happy to help - but hopefully it will play out smoothly if you engage with them (was it Northern or another rail company?).

Further to the good advice from @jfollows above I would add:

Chances are (hopefully your son gave a correct name and address - that is fairly vital as if not it could escalate to court without you being aware and much more hassle to then sort out).

They will write to your son asking for 'his side of the story' - the letter will probably allege that he was unable to show a valid Railcard / ticket and they are considering prosecuting so it will look threatening at first glance. Do not be overly worried by this but be sure to respond - help from here on what to say when you need it.

But your son (or you with their written authorization given age) will need to briefly explain what happened, state had a valid railcard, and valid ticket, and be able to show proof of that in the reply. Explain nature of disability prevented finding Railcard in the time the staff member allowed and this should resolve the matter.

For the future (I'm sure you will have thought of this) consider if a paper / plastic Railcard is a better option (but there is always the risk of loss of that)
Also - is the autism at a level that may entitle your son to a Disabled Persons Railcard? Do not feel any need to answer this but just for your reference that type of Railcard has more generous provisions that go with its use than others (see their website) so if eligible it may be a better Ralicard to have.

Head back here for more advice as you need it (eg ppl can check the draft of your reply for you if you wish to post it in due course).

For now be prepared to reply by keeping some notes and proofs handy
eg screen grab of valid ticket
screen grab of valid railcard (check it was indeed valid)
Date and time of incident (what time train travelling on, going from where to where etc)

Good luck with getting this sorted. Hopefully it will be no more than a nuisance to resolve

“you’l receive something in the post but nothing will come of it”

This is unhelpful - you are correct to be wary - they say this to diffuse potential situations at the moment in question but what is most likely to happen is sometime in up to the next 6 months your son is highly likely to get a threatening letter of the sort mentioned above and if not engaged with it could escalate to being taken to court in worst case scenario. As I say - this can be avoided.

 

[Helen1976]

Thank you all for your advice, it is most appreciated. We will await the letter and have the necessary information ready to respond with. Yes, my son gave his correct name and address and his railcard is valid. He was travelling on a Northern train.
My Son further told me today that the member of staff was asking him for a physical railcard which threw him, as his is digital (I agree that a physical one may be more practical), while my son was struggling to locate the app he asked for a few minutes to find it but the staff member said “No, I’d rather do it this way” ie issue a Travel Incident Report. It makes me sad that an easily resolvable situation has become such a potentially big issue.

 

[jfollows]

Good luck, and there are lots of people here who will be happy to help you if you need it at the next stages.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Other forum members have already given some excellent advice. The only thing I will add is that once the matter is conculded you might want to consider logging a complaint with the train company's customer services department about the way the matter ws handled on the train.

 

[Western Sunset]

Wasn't there another situation on here quite recently, where a ticket inspector didn't give sufficient time for the passenger to find their ticket/railcard, before escalating the situation?
It could be argued that the OPs son did have their railcard with them, but weren't give sufficient opportunity to show it.

 

[WesternLancer]

Wasn't there another situation on here quite recently, where a ticket inspector didn't give sufficient time for the passenger to find their ticket/railcard, before escalating the situation?
It could be argued that the OPs son did have their railcard with them, but weren't give sufficient opportunity to show it.

Think that one was possibly Thameslink, IIRC.

 

[DelayRepay]

As a practical suggestion for the future, is your son able to move the railcard app on his phone, so it's either on the home screen or next to the app he uses to show his tickets? This may make it easier to find, and could allow the staff member to help if he's struggling. Or perhaps he could get into the routine of opening the app when he boards a train, so he just has to swipe through his open apps if he needs to show it?

 

[Helen1976]

Thanks again everyone. I have screenshots of my sons ticket and railcard. I have also written up his full account of the events so hopefully we are prepared. I note that on the TIR the ticket inspector has recorded my son’s date of birth incorrectly (wrong month of birth) my Son said he also almost recorded an incorrect first name for him and said our address wasn’t a valid one, which I imagine would look bad but my son was able to correct him. It seems to me that with a minute of patience to let my son locate the app rather than constant questioning and changes of questions (he asked my son to show him the email that proved he purchased a railcard but when he showed him it he said it didn’t count) this situation could have been avoided.
I have moved my Son’s railcard app so it sits next to his Trainline app on his home screen which will make things more straightforward and he now realises the importance of being prepared for the ticket inspector’s arrival. We will include this information in his written statement when we have to make it.

 

[Western Sunset]

Yes, sort it out first. Then write to Northern suggesting that their staff might need to be a tad more patient in interacting with passengers.

Anyway, best wishes with all this.

Just thought. If asked for your ticket, do you have to show it straight away? Does legislation mention this? I assume something along the lines of "produce a valid ticket on demand", but how long is that? Or does it depend on the individual inspector?

 

[DelayRepay]

I have moved my Son’s railcard app so it sits next to his Trainline app on his home screen which will make things more straightforward and he now realises the importance of being prepared for the ticket inspector’s arrival. We will include this information in his written statement when we have to make it.

I know this has already been suggested above, but if he always uses Trainline to purchase his tickets, then when the railcard needs to be renewed, do it through Trainline. Then everything will be in the same app which should make life easier. This suggestion is obviously not ideal if he sometimes purchases through different apps as you're back to square one.

I hope you get this sorted out. Having a relative who has autism, I know the impact this type of event can have on someone's confidence.

 

[6Gman]

Just thought. If asked for your ticket, do you have to show it straight away? Does legislation mention this? I assume something along the lines of "produce a valid ticket on demand", but how long is that? Or does it depend on the individual inspector?

I think that, at law, it would be a matter of what was "reasonable". And, yes, the law does frequently hinge on reasonableness.

On the specific matter of presenting a ticket "on demand" it would be for a court to take a view on the circumstances of any individual case.

I think any reasonable (that word again) court would consider a few seconds spent finding the pass in a handbag very differently from 20 minutes searching through multiple bags, suitcases etc.

(In my inexpert opinion)

 

[Helen1976]

It’s only an 11 minute train journey. It took longer to obtain the information for the TIR than the time my son was given to find his digital railcard. I suppose we all have our own definitions of what is reasonable. Knowing my son, being asked multiple questions about emails, physical cards etc would have flustered him and I think this would have been apparent. A little bit of patience was required but wasn’t given.

 

[Snow1964]

Yes, sort it out first. Then write to Northern suggesting that their staff might need to be a tad more patient in interacting with passengers.

Anyway, best wishes with all this.

Just thought. If asked for your ticket, do you have to show it straight away? Does legislation mention this? I assume something along the lines of "produce a valid ticket on demand", but how long is that? Or does it depend on the individual inspector?

The railcard part of National conditions says present a railcard when asked, but doesn’t specify a time. So it’s anyones guess what is acceptable from one second to few minutes.

8.5 If you are travelling with a Railcard discounted Ticket and are unable to present the Railcard when asked by the staff or authorised agents of a Train Company, you will be treated as having joined a train without a valid Ticket and Conditions 9.1 – 9.5 will apply.

If you find it three minutes later and show the ticket inspector, then you meet the condition of having presented it, but it seems to become a problem if they have already issued paperwork, as they don’t seem to like tearing up the form. I cannot find anything that says it is then customers problem to deal with paperwork for a railcard already presented to the ticket inspector.

 

[Western Sunset]

I suppose the TOC would argue that with regard to point 8.5: "... and are unable to present the Railcard when asked by the staff..." that the inspector asked and the passenger couldn't present it straight away.

I'm sure the OP's son will be OK in the end, as there's the "one time forgotten" rule with Railcards. But it's upsetting nonetheless and spoiled his experience of the journey. I find the whole situation (as presented here by the OP) to be very harsh to the passenger who did, in fact, have a valid Railcard with them, but couldn't present it quick enough to the inspector.

 

[RSDonovan]

It would be helpful if ticket purchase apps could get access to the railcard app and then validate the discount in advance and so mark the ticket.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Of no use now, but for future reference, if you buy it through the trainline app (it's the same price) and buy an e-ticket with them then there's a promt to "show railcard" on the ticket page, just click one button. If you get a paper ticket, or an e-ticket from elsewhere, then the railcard is still there in the app as now, just a different app.

I know this has already been suggested above, but if he always uses Trainline to purchase his tickets, then when the railcard needs to be renewed, do it through Trainline. Then everything will be in the same app which should make life easier. This suggestion is obviously not ideal if he sometimes purchases through different apps as you're back to square one.

I hope you get this sorted out. Having a relative who has autism, I know the impact this type of event can have on someone's confidence.

The big problem with doing this via The Trainline, as I find all the time at work, is that you can only access the Railcard by logging in to the account which it was purchased by.

So if the Railcard is purchased by somebody else such as a parent or relative- the person using the Railcard MUST be logged in to the parent's or relative's Trainline account to be able to show the railcard. As soon as you log out of that other person's account the railcard disappears.

Some people do not want to give their login details to somebody else, even a close family member, and even if they do it can cause issues if the person using the railcard gets logged out and can't remember the other person's account details there and then.

Using the Railcard app is far better is it can be on more than one device and only needs a download code to be entered, not to be logged in each time.

Note - A screenshot of a digital railcard, which does not have the security features moving around, is not valid for use.

 

[DelayRepay]

The big problem with doing this via The Trainline, as I find all the time at work, is that you can only access the Railcard by logging in to the account which it was purchased by.

So if the Railcard is purchased by somebody else such as a parent or relative- the person using the Railcard MUST be logged in to the parent's or relative's Trainline account to be able to show the railcard. As soon as you log out of that other person's account the railcard disappears.

Yes, clearly the son would need to purchase the railcard through his own Trainline account, and use the same account to buy his tickets. Otherwise the situation will become more complicated, rather than less.

It would be nice to be able to store a railcard in your Apple/Google wallet, regardless of which retailer/channel you purchased it from. That would make life easier for me as it's where my e-tickets end up. It would also be nice if the guard could scan a barcode on a screenshot or printout of a railcard to confirm validity but that might be a bit too advanced!

 

[Deafdoggie]

The big problem with doing this via The Trainline, as I find all the time at work, is that you can only access the Railcard by logging in to the account which it was purchased by.

So if the Railcard is purchased by somebody else such as a parent or relative- the person using the Railcard MUST be logged in to the parent's or relative's Trainline account to be able to show the railcard. As soon as you log out of that other person's account the railcard disappears.

Some people do not want to give their login details to somebody else, even a close family member, and even if they do it can cause issues if the person using the railcard gets logged out and can't remember the other person's account details there and then.

Using the Railcard app is far better is it can be on more than one device and only needs a download code to be entered, not to be logged in each time.

Note - A screenshot of a digital railcard, which does not have the security features moving around, is not valid for use.

The easiest solution is to purchase the railcard in the sons app using the parents payment card, but don't store payment card details. Very easily solved.
As has been seen on these forums time & again the railcard app is bug-ridden and fully of glitches. It isn't really fit for purpose, I wouldn't recommend using it. Either buy through trainline or get a physical railcard.