Travel Fraud - payment plan

[novalunastar]

Hello!

I was travelling back him from nottingham to manchester when the ticket inspector scanned my ticket to find out that my railcard had been expired for about a month. I genuinely didn’t realise it had expired. She didn’t fine me then but i came home and i received a letter from the fraud department saying that they had did an internal investigation and found that I had 8 journeys that they think i made with an invalid railcard. They’re asking for a payment of £491 including a £150 admin fee to be paid within 21 days. At first I was just confused at how 8 journeys added up to almost £300 as most of them was to and from warrington and manchester, and warrington to nottingham only high costing one i guess would be when i went to brighton from nottingham. Anyway I was willing to pay that as i have learnt from my mistake and i take full responsibility for it. I asked if they could set up a payment plan as I know they rarely agree to a payment plan. I am a recent graduate (graduated around 2 months ago) and i am actively seeking a job, so as you can imagine i have very little means to support myself. After a lot of me begging and pleasing with them i asked if they could spread the cost over 6 months, they agreed to a payment plan but they only agreed to spread the fine across 2 payments with an extra charge of another £100 admin fee just for the payment plan according to them. I just wanted to ask for some advice in what i can ask/do to spread the cost across further payments as again i’m willing to pay i just want to have the chance to raise the funds for it. They said 2 payment plans is the best they can do. Also was wondering if they can add on random fees like that without it being questioned?

 

[AlterEgo]

The problem with payment plans is that what you are doing here is paying for the outstanding fares in lieu of being prosecuted in the magistrates' court for the offence(s). There's a six month limit for the train company to prosecute you, starting from the date of the offence when you were first caught. Given that is now (I assume) well in the past, it's not likely the train company will agree for you to pay in instalments for longer than the expiry date of the offence, because if you stop paying they want the opportunity to prosecute you instead.

I'm not sure we have come across a fee just to set up a payment plan before, although the £150 admin fee for the cost of their investigation seems about right. The best way out of these matters is to pay as soon as possible. Is there anyone who can lend you the sum, or can you take on informal work to earn the money in a few weeks?

 

[novalunastar]

Hello!

I was travelling back him from nottingham to manchester when the ticket inspector scanned my ticket to find out that my railcard had been expired for about a month. I genuinely didn’t realise it had expired. She didn’t fine me then but i came home and i received a letter from the fraud department saying that they had did an internal investigation and found that I had 8 journeys that they think i made with an invalid railcard. They’re asking for a payment of £491 including a £150 admin fee to be paid within 21 days. At first I was just confused at how 8 journeys added up to almost £300 as most of them was to and from warrington and manchester, and warrington to nottingham only high costing one i guess would be when i went to brighton from nottingham. Anyway I was willing to pay that as i have learnt from my mistake and i take full responsibility for it. I asked if they could set up a payment plan as I know they rarely agree to a payment plan. I am a recent graduate (graduated around 2 months ago) and i am actively seeking a job, so as you can imagine i have very little means to support myself. After a lot of me begging and pleasing with them i asked if they could spread the cost over 6 months, they agreed to a payment plan but they only agreed to spread the fine across 2 payments with an extra charge of another £100 admin fee just for the payment plan according to them. I just wanted to ask for some advice in what i can ask/do to spread the cost across further payments as again i’m willing to pay i just want to have the chance to raise the funds for it. They said 2 payment plans is the best they can do. Also was wondering if they can add on random fees like that without it being questioned?

I am also looking to appeal this, as the payment plan they are offering me is just looking so unrealistic. I have begged and pleaded with them that I am just a recent graduate, i am willing to pay i just cannot pay for it outright

 

[telstarbox]

Which company sent you the letter?

 

[signed]

Also was wondering if they can add on random fees like that without it being questioned?

They count the full undiscounted Anytime fee (One return = two singles) without any credit for fares already paid
A Warrington to Manchester is £10.20, a Warrington to Nottingham is £57.90, a Manchester to Nottingham is £55.10, a Nottigham to Brighton is £154.50

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2024 ==

I am also looking to appeal this, as the payment plan they are offering me is just looking so unrealistic

It's a either you go to court (and end up paying a lot more in fine) or you pay

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello!

I was travelling back him from nottingham to manchester when the ticket inspector scanned my ticket to find out that my railcard had been expired for about a month. I genuinely didn’t realise it had expired. She didn’t fine me then but i came home and i received a letter from the fraud department saying that they had did an internal investigation and found that I had 8 journeys that they think i made with an invalid railcard. They’re asking for a payment of £491 including a £150 admin fee to be paid within 21 days. At first I was just confused at how 8 journeys added up to almost £300 as most of them was to and from warrington and manchester, and warrington to nottingham only high costing one i guess would be when i went to brighton from nottingham. Anyway I was willing to pay that as i have learnt from my mistake and i take full responsibility for it. I asked if they could set up a payment plan as I know they rarely agree to a payment plan. I am a recent graduate (graduated around 2 months ago) and i am actively seeking a job, so as you can imagine i have very little means to support myself. After a lot of me begging and pleasing with them i asked if they could spread the cost over 6 months, they agreed to a payment plan but they only agreed to spread the fine across 2 payments with an extra charge of another £100 admin fee just for the payment plan according to them. I just wanted to ask for some advice in what i can ask/do to spread the cost across further payments as again i’m willing to pay i just want to have the chance to raise the funds for it. They said 2 payment plans is the best they can do. Also was wondering if they can add on random fees like that without it being questioned?

Hi and welcome - they can add on fee if they want really not least because they have you over a barrel - if you do not like the sum asked for or the extra fees then they will prosecute you in court which is best to avoid if at all possible.

A payment plan costs them more in admin as they have to check you have paid and if you don't pay an instalment then they will have to chase you up, pursue the debt etc etc.

My recommendation would be to do all you can to pay it in full now if at all possible. ie by any legal way you can raise the money - eg borrow from a friend or relative for example? is there any way at all you can raise the money (would borrowing it eg via credit card cost less than there additional £100 fee?)

In terms of the sum, they often ask for the full Anytime Day Single fare for each journey they think you have undertaken with an invalid ticket (a ticket with a railcard discount applied but no Railcard is an invalid ticket and they may be making no allowance for what you have paid - an Anytime Single Nottingham to Brighton is £152.80 alone - that's one way of course.)

 

[novalunastar]

The problem with payment plans is that what you are doing here is paying for the outstanding fares in lieu of being prosecuted in the magistrates' court for the offence(s). There's a six month limit for the train company to prosecute you, starting from the date of the offence when you were first caught. Given that is now (I assume) well in the past, it's not likely the train company will agree for you to pay in instalments for longer than the expiry date of the offence, because if you stop paying they want the opportunity to prosecute you instead.

I'm not sure we have come across a fee just to set up a payment plan before, although the £150 admin fee for the cost of their investigation seems about right. The best way out of these matters is to pay as soon as possible. Is there anyone who can lend you the sum, or can you take on informal work to earn the money in a few weeks?

Which company sent you the letter?

east midlands railway

 

[WesternLancer]

I am also looking to appeal this, as the payment plan they are offering me is just looking so unrealistic. I have begged and pleaded with them that I am just a recent graduate, i am willing to pay i just cannot pay for it outright

There is no right of Appeal so I would not be tempted to do this, or at least not without considering advice from this forum on the pros and cons.

I sympathise with your situation and financial difficulties of course.

Unfortunately one of the big areas of ticket evasion is people claiming railcard discounts when they do not have the railcard at all - it seems genuine mistakes with expired railcards get caught up in this and the railway knows that sometimes several journeys have been made without the railcard (unintentionally) and there is more money to thus recoup as all this can be checked with access to on line ticket buying records.

 

[John R]

I would highly advise you not to appeal. There is a risk that they lose patience and withdraw the offer and move to prosecution, which they are perfectly entitled to do.

 

[Gloster]

I would consider that you are very lucky to have been offered a payment plan at all. I can only remember seeing one offer of a plan previously in all the cases that I have read on this site and that was also only for two (or possibly three) instalments. I would pay it somehow as the alternative is court, where you would almost certainly lose, or challenging the plan, which might well result in it being withdrawn.

 

[novalunastar]

Hi and welcome - they can add on fee if they want really not least because they have you over a barrel - if you do not like the sum asked for or the extra fees then they will prosecute you in court which is best to avoid if at all possible.

A payment plan costs them more in admin as they have to check you have paid and if you don't pay an instalment then they will have to chase you up, pursue the debt etc etc.

My recommendation would be to do all you can to pay it in full now if at all possible. ie by any legal way you can raise the money - eg borrow from a friend or relative for example? is there any way at all you can raise the money (would borrowing it eg via credit card cost less than there additional £100 fee?)

In terms of the sum, they often ask for the full Anytime Day Single fare for each journey they think you have undertaken with an invalid ticket (a ticket with a railcard discount applied but no Railcard is an invalid ticket and they may be making no allowance for what you have paid - an Anytime Single Nottingham to Brighton is £152.80 alone - that's one way of course.)

would they accept credit card payment? as a way to pay it off

 

[signed]

would they accept credit card payment? as a way to pay it off

Depends on the payment portal, but you can try

 

[WesternLancer]

would they accept credit card payment? as a way to pay it off

I would have thought they would (surely)? They just want the money after all, I would have thought.

 

[island]

I am also looking to appeal this, as the payment plan they are offering me is just looking so unrealistic. I have begged and pleaded with them that I am just a recent graduate, i am willing to pay i just cannot pay for it outright

I’m afraid there is no appeal. Your options are
1) full payment
2) criminal prosecution.

would they accept credit card payment? as a way to pay it off

Yes, credit card payments are acceptable.

 

[novalunastar]

Depends on the payment portal, but you can try

I’ve just tried on the portal and it keeps saying that the notice number that they have given me is wrong, and when i call they said they’re busy so i’d have to wait until they call me back i can’t win i swear

 

[WesternLancer]

I’ve just tried on the portal and it keeps saying that the notice number that they have given me is wrong, and when i call they said they’re busy so i’d have to wait until they call me back i can’t win i swear

what a nuisance!

How long is the payment deadline open to you for - ie how urgent is this? I take it it's not an option to go to an EMR station and pay it at the ticket office (eg if you are in Nottingham the Nottingham station ticket office - if it was possible would 100% need to get a receipt / proof of payment including what you are paying for - which you must also get and keep safe with an online portal system too of course).

 

[AlterEgo]

You can’t pay out of court settlements at a ticket office. This isn’t a penalty fare.

 

[WesternLancer]

You can’t pay out of court settlements at a ticket office. This isn’t a penalty fare.

Thanks for clarifying. You would think if the train company wanted to make ticket offices more 'value' for the cost of running them they might accept any payment the train company was asking for. But I suspect life isn't able to be that simple....

 

[railwayman19]

your lucky that you have a payment plan I have read that those are rarer I would also ask at the start you mention that they found you made 8 previous journey with what they believe was an expired railway are you sure you have used that expired rail cards on those dates?

 

[Hadders]

You should be able to pay this with a credit card.

As others have said if you don't pay then EMR will prosecute you in the Magistrates Court for the incident that took place on the day you were caught. You would be found guilty and have to pay:

- A fine based on your income (usually discounted for a third if you plead guilty at the earliest opportubity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- Compensation for the fare avoided on the day you were caught
- Contribution towards EMR's court costs

All this is likely to add up to more than the settlement amount EMR are offering you to keep the matter out of court. Also, you'd have the difficulties of a conviction.

 

[WesternLancer]

You should be able to pay this with a credit card.

As others have said if you don't pay then EMR will prosecute you in the Magistrates Court for the incident that took place on the day you were caught. You would be found guilty and have to pay:

- A fine based on your income (usually discounted for a third if you plead guilty at the earliest opportubity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- Compensation for the fare avoided on the day you were caught
- Contribution towards EMR's court costs

All this is likely to add up to more than the settlement amount EMR are offering you to keep the matter out of court. Also, you'd have the difficulties of a conviction.

But a small recompense might be the ability to pay the court fines in instalments….

Probably not that much of a recompense however.

 

[Hadders]

But a small recompense might be the ability to pay the court fines in instalments….

Probably not that much of a recompense however.

Agreed. A court fines officer will normally allow a payment plan.