travel beyond validity

[n1223222]

on the 10th of june i got stopped at a station and was fined for travelling beyond validity even though i explained i couldn’t get to the doors in time to leave at my expected stop (the stop prior to this one). i was subsequently fined and i appealed the day of and haven’t received any updates. i’m afraid the appeal will take longer than 21 days and ill be expected to pay £100. do i pay the £50 penalty? will they give me a refund if the appeal goes through? do i wait for a response (im scared it’ll go over 21 days)? i also explained that the doors were blocked by a group of ppl in the way and how i missed my stop. it feels unfair i really do hope they’ll accept my appeal, please also let me know if you guys think it could be accepted.

the journey was from five ways to university birmingham, i came off the stop after at selly oak and decided to walk back to my accom from there (it’s not that far away)

EDIT: I’ve just received a letter saying my appeal didn’t go through and i can re-appeal. I don’t understand why it’s fair for them to give me a penalty when it wasn’t my fault. Does anyone know if it’s worth re-appealing?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@n1223222. Welcome to the forum. Could you possibly provide some further info, as per the following thread...

Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions

Guidance for those asking for advice: Please bear in mind the following, when asking for advice in this section: We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example: The stations* where you actually started & finished your journey The stations* where you changed...

www.railforums.co.uk

P.S. Presumably, this was an incident in the Birmingham / West Midlands area?

 

[Watershed]

Welcome to the forum.

It would be best if you could upload a copy of any paperwork you have received, as well as the appeal you have sent. We suggest you redact personal details such as your name/address and reference numbers for your own privacy.

If you have been issued with a Penalty Fare, there are three stages of appeal, each of which is free. During any period where you have submitted an appeal and you are waiting for a decision, the 'clock' is stopped on the 21-day period where you can pay the reduced amount of £50. So there is nothing you need to do until the appeal decision comes back, and there is no benefit to paying right now.

The appeals body only has 21 days to respond to an appeal. If the appeals body doesn't make a decision within 21 days, your appeal automatically succeeds.

 

[Gloster]

One point for completeness: where exactly were you stopped? Were you on the platform wondering what to do, making your way to the platform for a train back to where you had wanted to get off or what?

 

[6Gman]

on the 10th of june i got stopped at a station and was fined for travelling beyond validity even though i explained i couldn’t get to the doors in time to leave at my expected stop (the stop prior to this one). i was subsequently fined and i appealed the day of and haven’t received any updates. i’m afraid the appeal will take longer than 21 days and ill be expected to pay £100. do i pay the £50 penalty? will they give me a refund if the appeal goes through? do i wait for a response (im scared it’ll go over 21 days)? i also explained that the doors were blocked by a group of ppl in the way and how i missed my stop. it feels unfair i really do hope they’ll accept my appeal, please also let me know if you guys think it could be accepted.

My understanding is that an appeal "stops the clock" so the 21 days only restarts if your appeal is dismissed.

 

[n1223222]

I have since added more information, thank you!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2024 ==

One point for completeness: where exactly were you stopped? Were you on the platform wondering what to do, making your way to the platform for a train back to where you had wanted to get off or what?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2024 ==

Welcome to the forum.

It would be best if you could upload a copy of any paperwork you have received, as well as the appeal you have sent. We suggest you redact personal details such as your name/address and reference numbers for your own privacy.

If you have been issued with a Penalty Fare, there are three stages of appeal, each of which is free. During any period where you have submitted an appeal and you are waiting for a decision, the 'clock' is stopped on the 21-day period where you can pay the reduced amount of £50. So there is nothing you need to do until the appeal decision comes back, and there is no benefit to paying right now.

The appeals body only has 21 days to respond to an appeal. If the appeals body doesn't make a decision within 21 days, your appeal automatically succeeds.

I did just check to see if I can access what I had written in my appeal, but on the site it’s not giving me much information, just that the appeal is being processed. I remember writing that there were a group of people obstructing my way from leaving when i was supposed to get off (university station). i then made my way to another carriage, which then by this time the train had begun again with its journey, i got off at the next stop over and was immediately stopped by a group of inspectors (selly oak station doesn’t have barriers so i assume they were trying to catch people out but it was an honest mistake on my part).

 

[Gloster]

I did just check to see if I can access what I had written in my appeal, but on the site it’s not giving me much information, just that the appeal is being processed. I remember writing that there were a group of people obstructing my way from leaving when i was supposed to get off (university station). i then made my way to another carriage, which then by this time the train had begun again with its journey, i got off at the next stop over and was immediately stopped by a group of inspectors (selly oak station doesn’t have barriers so i assume they were trying to catch people out but it was an honest mistake on my part).

So you were stopped as soon as you got off the train and before you could make your way to the footbridge.

 

[Hadders]

I have since added more information, thank you!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2024 ==



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2024 ==


I did just check to see if I can access what I had written in my appeal, but on the site it’s not giving me much information, just that the appeal is being processed. I remember writing that there were a group of people obstructing my way from leaving when i was supposed to get off (university station). i then made my way to another carriage, which then by this time the train had begun again with its journey, i got off at the next stop over and was immediately stopped by a group of inspectors (selly oak station doesn’t have barriers so i assume they were trying to catch people out but it was an honest mistake on my part).

This indicates that your appeal has been received so I would hold tight until they get back to you. As stated upthread an appeal stops the clock on the 21 days.

Do kee checking your email spam folder in case their response ends up there.

 

[n1223222]

So you were stopped as soon as you got off the train and before you could make your way to the footbridge.

yes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2024 ==

Please if anyone can help me appeal it would be greatly appreciated, i feel it’s so unfair on me

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2024 ==

“I was not stopped at the footbridge, I was stopped as soon as I got off the train at Selly Oak station before I could make my way to the footbridge and catch the train back to the stop I paid for. Presumably this was so inspectors could catch people who havent paid a ticket. Except, I did pay for a ticket yet was not able to get off at my stop (University station) the reason for this was because it was exceptionally busy and there was a large group of people in front of the exits of the carriage. By the time I got to the next carriage over to get off at my stop, the train had begun its journey to Selly Oak. I was planning on taking the train back, I did not purposefully travel beyond validity of my ticket.” —> this is what i plan to say on my appeal

 

[John R]

Except in your OP you say you planned to walk back, so saying you planned to catch the train back is inconsistent with that?

 

[n1223222]

Except in your OP you say you planned to walk back, so saying you planned to catch the train back is inconsistent with that?

i said i ended up walking back after receiving the penalty, i didn’t see any point in getting the train back to the original stop if i was going to be fined

 

[John R]

i said i ended up walking back after receiving the penalty, i didn’t see any point in getting the train back to the original stop if i was going to be fined

That isn’t quite how it reads, but so be it.

 

[Haywain]

That isn’t quite how it reads, but so be it.

It's exactly how I read it.

 

[John R]

It's exactly how I read it.

Fair enough.

 

[The exile]

Have to say that if I were processing this, I’d find “there were some people in the way” a bit hard to swallow as a reason for not being able to get off (as opposed to the door failing to open).

 

[etr221]

Have to say that if I were processing this, I’d find “there were some people in the way” a bit hard to swallow as a reason for not being able to get off (as opposed to the door failing to open).

It is certainly a phrase that calls for more explanation, to my mind.

But there is a question (more generally), as to when your 'way' is obstructed by a crowd, when should you be expected to force your way through, and when the expectation that you shouldn't, and miss your train/stop/whatever...

 

[John R]

It is certainly a phrase that calls for more explanation, to my mind.

But there is a question (more generally), as to when your 'way' is obstructed by a crowd, when should you be expected to force your way through, and when the expectation that you shouldn't, and miss your train/stop/whatever...

It would be more understandable with rolling stock with doors at the ends (eg Class 158), but assuming it was a Class 323, it’s much less likely that you won’t be able to access the doors during a period when the train is crushed.

So I suspect that those reviewing the case may be somewhat sceptical of the explanation as a mitigating factor.

 

[The exile]

It is certainly a phrase that calls for more explanation, to my mind.

But there is a question (more generally), as to when your 'way' is obstructed by a crowd, when should you be expected to force your way through, and when the expectation that you shouldn't, and miss your train/stop/whatever...

Unless it is an aggressive or otherwise threatening crowd (which is then a different story entirely) you will get through if you start early enough. Many people don’t.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2024 ==

It would be more understandable with rolling stock with doors at the ends (eg Class 158), but assuming it was a Class 323, it’s much less likely that you won’t be able to access the doors during a period when the train is crushed.

So I suspect that those reviewing the case may be somewhat sceptical of the explanation as a mitigating factor.

Being stuck at the front of a crush-loaded SWR 159 must be one of the hardest.(now that HST TGSs are a rarity) I’m surprised SWR’s policy of having the front doors not for public use passes H&S regulations (unless it was purely a COVID measure).

 

[etr221]

Unless it is an aggressive or otherwise threatening crowd (which is then a different story entirely) you will get through if you start early enough. Many people don’t.

Which begs the question of how early is 'enough', and whether the perceptions of passengers (who may feel sufficiently unsteady on their feet not to stand before the train has stopped) and operators (who may leave announcements to the last moment) concur.

 

[The exile]

Early “enough” is sufficient to get out of the door in time. Only one person can carry that responsibility (unless there is deliberate obstruction) and that is the passenger concerned.

 

[Chrius56000]

. . .I nearly got carried on past my station on a crush–loaded train not all that long ago when all the aisles and doorways were absolutely chock–full of standing passengers, many of which were carrying big items of luggage, guitars and goodness–knows–what–else, and nobody is willing to make any effort to move enough to leave room for passengers to alight, so the OP's situation isn't as uncommon as it seems!

 

[AlbertBeale]

i said i ended up walking back after receiving the penalty, i didn’t see any point in getting the train back to the original stop if i was going to be fined

A technical point - what you have got is a Penalty Fare (ie the actual fare for your [unpaid] journey, plus £100, or +£50 if paid within 21 days); this is not a fine. A fine is something issued by a court if you're found guilty of, or plead guilty to, an offence. Although you might say this - going a stop too far - was a mistake, a Penalty Fare is generally reckoned to be a fair way to deal with someone without the right ticket "by mistake". If the ticket inspectors thought you were deliberately trying not to pay the full fare, they could it they wanted to have put you in the system for prosecution - and ending up in court would be more expensive (involving an actual fine, as well as compensation for the railway) and entail a criminal convention too (albeit a minor one). The good thing, however, is that since you've been issued with a Penalty Fare, then (whether or not your appeal is successful), they're not allowed to change their mind and prosecute instead.

Having said all that, if you were really blocked from getting off when you wanted, in a way which was genuinely unusual and unforeseeable (so your "culpability" is even less than a mistake, if you see what I mean), then I guess your appeal might succeed, if you can persuade them to accept your interpretation of what happened - though you might need to write a little more clearly and a little more explicitly than you seem to have done so far, if your appeal is to win through.

 

[sheff1]

But there is a question (more generally), as to when your 'way' is obstructed by a crowd, when should you be expected to force your way through, and when the expectation that you shouldn't, and miss your train/stop/whatever...

This is an interesting point.
I am well versed in forcing my way though crowds, adapting my approach depending on the nature of the crowd. Others may, quite reasonably, be less experienced/confident in asserting themself in such situations.