Transport investigations limited

[Attaboy]

But isn’t this black and white now. I was asked to produce a ticket upon boarding the train, and I didn’t have 1. I didn’t locate or speak to the conductor to buy a ticket. In court that would be the facts and the rest is just conjecture.

 

[some bloke]

Edit: The more I look at this, the less sure I am that it can be reasonably stated that there is definitely no obligation to look for a conductor.

But isn’t this black and white now. I was asked to produce a ticket upon boarding the train, and I didn’t have 1. I didn’t locate or speak to the conductor to buy a ticket. In court that would be the facts and the rest is just conjecture.

The facts include what train companies have agreed.

The key responsibilities of Train Companies...are:
...We...will ensure that you are treated fairly if you are unable to purchase a Ticket because advertised facilities are unavailable.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf

You might tell them,

"I believe that the law allows me to board ticketless when the office is closed and the machine doesn't work, because it's stated in the Conditions of Travel."

6.1. You must have a valid Ticket to travel before you board a train where there was the
opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:
6.1.1. At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a
Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket
machine in working order; and where notices indicate that you are in a
Penalty Fares area you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit
to Travel issuing machine...

You might also tell them,

"I don't know of any clear written requirement for me to look for a conductor in these circumstances. Nor do I know of any requirement to "pay the fare due on boarding any train immediately", as Transport Investigations Limited claim."

The conjecture is the idea that you were obliged to be inconvenienced by not just the broken machine but also by having to find the conductor.

"it is always the responsibility of the passenger to declare the journey to on train staff and pay the fare due on boarding any train immediately"

Here again, you can quote the conditions.

In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey.

That doesn't clearly say that "reasonably able" means you have to look for a conductor.
Then there's an information box, which is not part of the official conditions.

INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor
on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is
sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible,
at your destination.

At this point you can quote the part about "fairly" above. They say they will *ensure* that you are treated fairly. That would seem to mean that if in doubt they have to err on the side of leniency.

As posted above, TiL themselves say the ticket-checking staff "are notified" when the machines don't work.

So if I understand right, the only wrong things that have happened in this case may be nothing do do with you doing anything wrong, but that you have been inconvenienced by:

1) the company not providing facilities to buy,

2) the inspector wrongly refusing to sell you a ticket (after they were apparently not told the machine was broken despite the public information saying they would be told),

3) TiL pursuing you and

4) you being told on a perhaps shaky basis that there had been an obligation for you to find the conductor.

What if I could not get a ticket ...because...the machine was not working?

...The train operating companies monitor these facilities, and where there are failures, the ticket-checking staff are notified.

http://transportinvestigations.co.uk/payments/have-you-been-reported/frequently-asked-questions/

People have different confidence levels about how they'd come across in court, and courts might be viewed as not tough enough on train companies.

But the company is supposed to be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the machine was working and/or that you were obliged to find the conductor.

 

[some bloke]

Please see the latest edited version above.

 

[some bloke]

[If you travel from a station that doesn’t have a working ticket machine or a ticket office] you must locate and speak to a member of the on-train team

https://tfwrail.wales/purchasing-your-tickets/buy-before-you-board

That seems unjustified by the Conditions of Travel (at least since it may not be reasonably possible to locate staff), and seems to conflict, in cases where relevant Byelaws are invoked, with Byelaw 18 (3):

"No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey"

On this trip the investigators came up to me just as the train was departing Wellington, so they’d be no chance of a conductor going down the train to sell me a ticket. I’m guessing this isn’t wrote anywhere in law that the passenger must seek out the conductor to obtain a ticket if ticket facilities aren’t available

Is the Byelaw the basis for the statements below?

Is it the case that the Conditions of Travel, quoted in the previous post, might be interpreted as saying there may be an obligation, while the Byelaws say there isn't, in respect of 18 (1) and 18 (2)?

I would guess that if the answer to the second question is yes, as it seems to me it is, then there is no obligation that is relevant to 18 (1) or 18 (2) - on the ground that the contract entered into by entering the train includes the byelaw, and should be interpreted in the passenger's favour.

It seems to me that it wouldn't be true to say that there is "nothing anywhere that even remotely suggests this", but I'm guessing it's true to say there is no such obligation - at least in relation to 18 (1) and 18 (2).

There's never an obligation to look for the conductor under any circumstances when you're on the railway (unless perhaps you are seeking to get off at a request stop station). It is for the conductor to approach you and not the other way around.

There is no such obligation.

It is not the passenger's obligation to seek out a guard if they have not had an opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding. There is no such obligation, there never has been and there is nothing anywhere that even remotely suggests this.

TIL really, really need to get their heads around this extraordinarily basic part of the ticket irregularity process and it's extremely concerning that they are making false suggestions of wrongdoing on what seems to be a non-isolated basis.

they wouldn't stand a chance if they tried to prosecute you merely for not actively finding a member of staff.

 

[Attaboy]

So I’ve heard back from TiL from my last letter. They’ve informed me that the ‘file will be closed and marked to show that a written reminder of the rules in force has been given out. No further action is deemed necessary.’

TiL are a charlatan company who pray on the fear they garner from threatening court action. Makes me angry the amount of people who will pay the administrative fee to stop their case going to court, when they haven’t done anything wrong

 

[yorkie]

I'm not going to fully describe what I think of this organisation however I am aware of cases where they were utterly in the wrong, yet still falsely asserted the passenger was in the wrong, so you can guess the rest.

 

[farleigh]

Poor show from TIL

 

[some bloke]

So you asked them the charge and they folded?
Maybe they read this thread, or someone at the train company told them about it.

@yorkie, if they had only Byelaw 18 (1) or 18 (2)* in mind, isn't this a false statement?

"a written reminder of the rules in force has been given out"

They seem to be saying they told @Attaboy he had to look for the conductor.

Aren't the "rules in force" basically 18 (3) - that you can't breach those byelaws if you didn't have the opportunity to buy a ticket, so that the whole question of looking for the conductor is, despite the Conditions, irrelevant?

* note for others: (1) is entering train to travel, without valid ticket; (2) is failing to hand over ticket for inspection

 

[MotCO]

So I’ve heard back from TiL from my last letter. They’ve informed me that the ‘file will be closed and marked to show that a written reminder of the rules in force has been given out. No further action is deemed necessary.’

Presumably this is good news for Jojo, the OP. Thet can hardly continue with action against her when they have closed Attaboy's case.