Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 Stadler FLIRTs

[778]

All the 231s are 4-coach; only the 756s have both 3-coach and 4-coach variants.

Would it have been more expensive for TFW to order another 77 231s instead of the 197s? The 231s can be fitted with batteries or pantographs but the 197s can't.

 

[tfw756rider]

Would it have been more expensive for TFW to order another 77 231s instead of the 197s? The 231s can be fitted with batteries or pantographs but the 197s can't.

I think a 3-coach 231 would be more expensive than even a "197113-126" 3-car 197, yes, due to both it being Stadler rather than CAF and that it would be diesel-electric rather than diesel-mechanical. Also, Transport for Wales wanted more than half of the new trains to be "made"/"built" (assembled) in Wales, which CAF could do but not Stadler.

 

[tigermonstera]

In 2023, TfW released a breakdown of their rolling stock order. The tables are available here.

11 231s cost 75,856,364 whilst 12 3-car 197s (no first class) cost 77,413,008.

 

[Philip Roberts]

I think a 3-coach 231 would be more expensive than even a "197113-126" 3-car 197, yes, due to both it being Stadler rather than CAF and that it would be diesel-electric rather than diesel-mechanical. Also, Transport for Wales wanted more than half of the new trains to be "made"/"built" (assembled) in Wales, which CAF could do but not Stadler.

TfW needed new stock quickly and having two different suppliers helps with that as well

 

[tfw756rider]

In 2023, TfW released a breakdown of their rolling stock order. The tables are available here.

11 231s cost 75,856,364 whilst 12 3-car 197s (no first class) cost 77,413,008.

Thank you so much for this - I had lost it!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2026 ==

TfW needed new stock quickly and having two different suppliers helps with that as well

Good point.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

In 2023, TfW released a breakdown of their rolling stock order. The tables are available here.

I was just about to say the same (Except I only had a screenshot, not the link).

I think a 3-coach 231 would be more expensive than even a "197113-126" 3-car 197, yes, due to both it being Stadler rather than CAF and that it would be diesel-electric rather than diesel-mechanical.

As per the linked table, not by much!
Each 197/1 has an individual price of £6,634,504, and each 4-car 231 was £6,896,033. (4% more)
So it'd be reasonable to say a 3-car version would be less than a 197/1.

 

[Russel]

In 2023, TfW released a breakdown of their rolling stock order. The tables are available here.

11 231s cost 75,856,364 whilst 12 3-car 197s (no first class) cost 77,413,008.

If my rough maths is correct, there really isn't much difference, given how the 197s are supposedly cheap.

231s = £6.8m each
197s = £6.4m each

I think we all know which is the better product.

 

[Richard Scott]

I was just about to say the same (Except I only had a screenshot, not the link).


As per the linked table, not by much!
Each 197/1 has an individual price of £6,634,504, and each 4-car 231 was £6,896,033. (4% more)
So it'd be reasonable to say a 3-car version would be less than a 197/1.

Question is which has more seats? 231s have articulated sections, which must be shorter than a 197 coach so not comparing like for like?

 

[Philip Roberts]

Question is which has more seats? 231s have articulated sections, which must be shorter than a 197 coach so not comparing like for like?

My understanding is...

3-car 197 has 173 seats (and 8 tip ups)
3-car 756 (as the closest comparison) has 118 seats (and 24 tip ups)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jan 2026 ==

My understanding is...

3-car 197 has 173 seats (and 8 tip ups)
3-car 756 (as the closest comparison) has 118 seats (and 24 tip ups)

A 4-car 756 has less seats than a 4-car 231 though

 

[Trainbike46]

Question is which has more seats? 231s have articulated sections, which must be shorter than a 197 coach so not comparing like for like?

A 3-coach 197 has 188 or 174 seats depending on layout (from Wikipedia)
A 4-coach 231 has 170+34 seats (from Stadler datasheet)

So per seat using the costs in this thread:
3-car 197:
£35,290 (for the densest layout from Wikipedia) or
£38,129 (for the less dense layout from Wikipedia) or
£36,655 (from @Philip Roberts seat numbers including top-up)
£38,350 (from @Philip Roberts seat numbers excluding tip-up)
4-car 231:
£33,804 (including tip-up) or
£40,565 (not counting tip-up)

So per seat they are similar cost, but the 197s offer walk-through gangways, and the 231s offer level boarding and a lot of luggage space

My understanding is...

3-car 197 has 173 seats (and 8 tip ups)
3-car 756 (as the closest comparison) has 118 seats (and 24 tip ups)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jan 2026 ==

A 4-car 756 has less seats than a 4-car 231 though

A 755 might be a better comparison, as the 756 has more doors than the 231 or 755.

 

[MikePJ]

On the other side, the 197s are more length-efficient (not just the lack of power-pack vehicle, but also the equipment bays behind the cabs on the FLIRT units) and have a lower axle weight, so they have better route availability and will reduce track wear when compared with the Stadler units.

 

[positron]

The 197s.bwing high floored and diesel mechanical should have excluded them from the outset tbph. I get they wanted lots built in Wales but presumably stadler would have opened a factory if the order was big enough. FLIRTS as a platform seems flexible enough that they could have made variations for whatever was needed. They also should have at least got CAF to make DEMUs.

I would hope that any orders going forwards have to be low floor and also have the ability to use a pantograph.

I suspect they'll order more 398s and cascade some of the flirts elsewhere.

Level boarding should be a requirement for any burns services imo.

I believe the plan is that 231s will run all maesteg-ebbw, ebbw-newport and Cardiff - Cheltenham services.

 

[MikePJ]

Briefly on the topic of level boarding, I was on a 756 the other day and a group of three young men got on at Queen St, one of whom was a wheelchair user. They came out of the lift just as the train came into the platform and rolled straight on board, no need to wait for the conductor to help. That's what it's all about!

 

[AdamWW]

Briefly on the topic of level boarding, I was on a 756 the other day and a group of three young men got on at Queen St, one of whom was a wheelchair user. They came out of the lift just as the train came into the platform and rolled straight on board, no need to wait for the conductor to help. That's what it's all about!

Absolutely. And it will be even better once all the platforms at Queen Street have level boarding.

 

[positron]

Absolutely. And it will be even better once all the platforms at Queen Street have level boarding.

Yeah there's still platform work required, Radyr comes to mind as still quite problematic. But it really is a game changer and it's very nice to see it being used. Especially in weather like now when it's icy it's a massive improvement for everyone.

 

[AdamWW]

Yeah there's still platform work required, Radyr comes to mind as still quite problematic. But it really is a game changer and it's very nice to see it being used. Especially in weather like now when it's icy it's a massive improvement for everyone.

Agreed it's a game changer and not just for those in wheelchairs.
Not having to hoick pushchairs up into a Pacer is a huge improvement.

Of course what Queen Street also needs is lifts that work reliably.

 

[BillStampy]

756112 allocated tonight to a test run up the Rhymney line all the way to the top and back (5Q30, 5Q31)
Is this the first 756 to go further north than Caerphilly? It's a positive step towards the changeover of traction later this year to see a unit testing up there.

 

[Bob Price]

756112 allocated tonight to a test run up the Rhymney line all the way to the top and back (5Q30, 5Q31)
Is this the first 756 to go further north than Caerphilly? It's a positive step towards the changeover of traction later this year to see a unit testing up there.

I think it is. If it runs that's a step forward to getting some of these units on that line.

 

[Wyrleybart]

The 197s.bwing high floored and diesel mechanical should have excluded them from the outset tbph. I get they wanted lots built in Wales but presumably stadler would have opened a factory if the order was big enough. FLIRTS as a platform seems flexible enough that they could have made variations for whatever was needed. They also should have at least got CAF to make DEMUs.

I would hope that any orders going forwards have to be low floor and also have the ability to use a pantograph.

I suspect they'll order more 398s and cascade some of the flirts elsewhere.

Level boarding should be a requirement for any burns services imo.

I believe the plan is that 231s will run all maesteg-ebbw, ebbw-newport and Cardiff - Cheltenham services.

There is still the class 153 elephant - not necessarily in the room but lumbering slowly up the lane. The Active Travel cars have presumably had an expensive internal refresh but the oldest ones celebrate their 40th birthdays this year or next. I assume they will ultimately be replaced by 197s on the HOWL

 

[BillStampy]

756101 and 756115 both allocated on overnight Rhymney tests this evening.

 

[CHAPS2034]

I had my first opportunity to see and travel on the TfW FLIRTS last week. They are very impressive. The last time I travelled up the Valleys was a long time ago on 142s and 143s!

However I did notice that the seat coverings on many of them were wearing badly which was a surprise considering they have not been in use for that long.

 

[Envoy]

I had my first opportunity to see and travel on the TfW FLIRTS last week. They are very impressive. The last time I travelled up the Valleys was a long time ago on 142s and 143s!

However I did notice that the seat coverings on many of them were wearing badly which was a surprise considering they have not been in use for that long.

Could be because the low life put their filthy shoes up on the seat(s) opposite and nobody tells them off - apart from me!

 

[AdamWW]

Does anyone know what happened to the 756/0s today?

It looks as if the Penarth/Coryton service started out with a full service of 756s as usual (just three units rather than five, as they aren't doing the Caerphilly part of the route this week), then after around 10 all three came off to leave the service running entirely with 150s for what I imagine is the first time in quite a while.

 

[Adlee Turner]

Does anyone know what happened to the 756/0s today?

It looks as if the Penarth/Coryton service started out with a full service of 756s as usual (just three units rather than five, as they aren't doing the Caerphilly part of the route this week), then after around 10 all three came off to leave the service running entirely with 150s for what I imagine is the first time in quite a while.

There’s a BTET in place on the Coryton line due to engineering works on the Rhymney line and unfortunately, the 756s were losing time as the signaller had to inform each driver to ban the pantographs before they entered the Coryton line

 

[tfw756rider]

There’s a BTET in place on the Coryton line

What does BTET stand for?

 

[43096]

What does BTET stand for?

Blocked To Electric Traction

 

[positron]

Blocked to electric traction. Basically they had to run diesel /battery on the line. Feels like they should be able to update the trackside beacons to lower pantos rather than raise when there's situations like this.

 

[VR494]

Blocked to electric traction. Basically they had to run diesel /battery on the line. Feels like they should be able to update the trackside beacons to lower pantos rather than raise when there's situations like this.

Once it’s lowered the issue driver’s have is it won’t go back up in a permanently earthed section, the wires need to be live above the train. A no high voltage detected fault will pop up and lower the pantograph again.

Some stations are located in PES areas, and the trains would need to stop between stations just to raise the pantograph again. Or in other instances wait until they’ve travelled along to the next pantograph raise beacon for the end of a catenary free section of track.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2026 ==

Does anyone know what happened to the 756/0s today?

It looks as if the Penarth/Coryton service started out with a full service of 756s as usual (just three units rather than five, as they aren't doing the Caerphilly part of the route this week), then after around 10 all three came off to leave the service running entirely with 150s for what I imagine is the first time in quite a while.

Scheduled inspections, unit issues, there’s not that many 756/0’s in the fleet after all.

If the government provides the necessary funds for the wires to Cogan, the 398’s will be taking over services on the Coryton-Penarth-Caerphilly network.

The plan is, and if they can, move them to mainline services towards Bristol.

 

[Caaardiff]

So if the electric is off for the Caerphilly line, that also means the Coryton line has to be switched off? Wonder what will happen when there's no 150s to step in.

 

[Anonymous10]

Once it’s lowered the issue driver’s have is it won’t go back up in a permanently earthed section, the wires need to be live above the train. A no high voltage detected fault will pop up and lower the pantograph again.

Some stations are located in PES areas, and the trains would need to stop between stations just to raise the pantograph again. Or in other instances wait until they’ve travelled along to the next pantograph raise beacon for the end of a catenary free section of track.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2026 ==


Scheduled inspections, unit issues, there’s not that many 756/0’s in the fleet after all.

If the government provides the necessary funds for the wires to Cogan, the 398’s will be taking over services on the Coryton-Penarth-Caerphilly network.

The plan is, and if they can, move them to mainline services towards Bristol.

How would a 756 work to bristol if theyre to be run as extensions of cardiff terminators from west wales?