Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 Stadler FLIRTs

[anthony263]

Definitely one of theb3 carriage units 756001

 

[The_Train]

756001

Definitely one of theb3 carriage units 756001

Thanks both

 

[AdamWW]

Definitely one of theb3 carriage units 756001

I presume it's the FLIRT in Canton with "Metro" branding, unlike the 231s...

 

[Peter Sarf]

Part Time Spotter has started reporting 231 movements. ECS so training or testing but that has been going on for months so I feel passenger service is imminent (just clutching at straws but they are Stadlers).

 

[anthony263]

Part Time Spotter has started reporting 231 movements. ECS so training or testing but that has been going on for months so I feel passenger service is imminent (just clutching at straws but they are Stadlers).

Class 231s supposed to entering service in January

 

[penguin8967]

Class 231s supposed to entering service in January

On Ebbw Vale/Cheltenham as originally intended or the Rhymney line?

 

[Jacob Didcote]

On Ebbw Vale/Cheltenham as originally intended or the Rhymney line?

Rhymney Line. Until the 756s are introduced then will move onto the mainline.

 

[Kyle2]

Rhymney Line. Until the 756s are introduced then will move onto the mainline.

If the 231's are working Rhymney until the 756's come in, then what's going to be working the Ebbw Vales and Cheltenham's until then? Aren't the 170's meant to be going to EMR early next year?

 

[AdamWW]

If the 231's are working Rhymney until the 756's come in, then what's going to be working the Ebbw Vales and Cheltenham's until then? Aren't the 170's meant to be going to EMR early next year?

If they have more than enough to replace the 769's then that should free up some 150's.

 

[Richard Scott]

If they have more than enough to replace the 769's then that should free up some 150's.

Great, just what's needed, those old bangers. They might work but as far as passenger comfort is concerned they're well past their sell by date.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Great, just what's needed, those old bangers. They might work but as far as passenger comfort is concerned they're well past their sell by date.

Have to be patient. The risk is that the alternative is short forms or nothing.

 

[craigybagel]

If the 231's are working Rhymney until the 756's come in, then what's going to be working the Ebbw Vales and Cheltenham's until then? Aren't the 170's meant to be going to EMR early next year?

The plan appears to be for a mixture of 150s and 175s, both in turn released by the introduction of further MKIVs and 197s

Great, just what's needed, those old bangers. They might work but as far as passenger comfort is concerned they're well past their sell by date.

Can you suggest a better alternative?

 

[Kyle2]

Also, might be off topic, but are drivers being trained to do the Vale of Glamorgan line on the 231's? I know they're stabled in Barry, but would they work passenger services until the 756's start? I'm just thinking that if the trams start before the Rhymney is finished, all MER/TRB/ABA services would have to terminate in Cardiff, as the metro plan states. Electrification work has only just started on the Rhymney, so that's probably going to be completed later and I assume the 756's won't have the battery range to do the whole journey from Rhymney to Bridgend/Barry Island?

 

[Dai Corner]

Also, might be off topic, but are drivers being trained to do the Vale of Glamorgan line on the 231's? I know they're stabled in Barry, but would they work passenger services until the 756's start? I'm just thinking that if the trams start before the Rhymney is finished, all MER/TRB/ABA services would have to terminate in Cardiff, as the metro plan states. Electrification work has only just started on the Rhymney, so that's probably going to be completed later and I assume the 756's won't have the battery range to do the whole journey from Rhymney to Bridgend/Barry Island?

They have diesel engines as well as batteries and pantographs ('tri-mode'').

 

[craigybagel]

Also, might be off topic, but are drivers being trained to do the Vale of Glamorgan line on the 231's? I know they're stabled in Barry, but would they work passenger services until the 756's start? I'm just thinking that if the trams start before the Rhymney is finished, all MER/TRB/ABA services would have to terminate in Cardiff, as the metro plan states. Electrification work has only just started on the Rhymney, so that's probably going to be completed later and I assume the 756's won't have the battery range to do the whole journey from Rhymney to Bridgend/Barry Island?

Drivers don't normally get specific training for working a new traction on a particular route. Once they're qualified to drive a particular train, they're qualified to drive it on any route that they sign. So in this case, the Valleys drivers learning the Stadlers on the Rhymney valley line will then be qualified to drive them to Barry Island. When Cardiff Mainline drivers learn Stadlers they'll then be able to drive them to Bridgend via the VOG.

 

[Roger B]

Drivers don't normally get specific training for working a new traction on a particular route. Once they're qualified to drive a particular train, they're qualified to drive it on any route that they sign. So in this case, the Valleys drivers learning the Stadlers on the Rhymney valley line will then be qualified to drive them to Barry Island. When Cardiff Mainline drivers learn Stadlers they'll then be able to drive them to Bridgend via the VOG.

Thanks Craig.

In some ways I can see the logic of this: a driver holds route cards for those they're authorised to drive, and traction cards for what they're authorised to drive.

BUT, new traction types will have different chatacteristics - eg acceleration and braking characteristics - giving rise to changes to where and when to apply power, and how much, where to apply brakes (especially where stopping marker boards are in different places) on the routes they're allocated to. So whilst no hands-on training, are there classroom / video / simulator activities so drivers can master new traction over existing routes?

 

[Jacob Didcote]

Great, just what's needed, those old bangers. They might work but as far as passenger comfort is concerned they're well past their sell by date.

Premium Traction

 

[Nick Ashwell]

The plan appears to be for a mixture of 150s and 175s, both in turn released by the introduction of further MKIVs and 197s

Can you suggest a better alternative?

Not making South Monmouthshire suffer like every other time? Why do we get a downgrade when Rhymney gets an upgrade with trains meant for our services?

We have to fight for buses, if you want to leave after 620 and get to work on time you'd better get the XC. We're sort of fed up with being messed about by every public transportation decision and yet they refuse to build us a bypass in Chepstow. We honestly can't win!!!

 

[craigybagel]

Thanks Craig.

In some ways I can see the logic of this: a driver holds route cards for those they're authorised to drive, and traction cards for what they're authorised to drive.

BUT, new traction types will have different chatacteristics - eg acceleration and braking characteristics - giving rise to changes to where and when to apply power, and how much, where to apply brakes (especially where stopping marker boards are in different places) on the routes they're allocated to. So whilst no hands-on training, are there classroom / video / simulator activities so drivers can master new traction over existing routes?

It would be nice, but in practice the different permutations of stock and routes makes it impractical for a driver to learn every route on every traction. When they learn a new traction they can feel how it compares to the other trains they drive and adapt their style accordingly for each route.

There may be notices posted advising on different stopping points, but otherwise drivers are trusted to cope. They may drive a little more cautiously the first few times, but from what I've heard it's not hard to keep to 150 timings driving a Stadler.

Not making South Monmouthshire suffer like every other time? Why do we get a downgrade when Rhymney gets an upgrade with trains meant for our services?

We have to fight for buses, if you want to leave after 620 and get to work on time you'd better get the XC. We're sort of fed up with being messed about by every public transportation decision and yet they refuse to build us a bypass in Chepstow. We honestly can't win!!!

That would be a no then.

 

[berneyarms]

Not making South Monmouthshire suffer like every other time? Why do we get a downgrade when Rhymney gets an upgrade with trains meant for our services?

We have to fight for buses, if you want to leave after 620 and get to work on time you'd better get the XC. We're sort of fed up with being messed about by every public transportation decision and yet they refuse to build us a bypass in Chepstow. We honestly can't win!!!

Let’s be fair - Rhymney has had to put up with serious problems with Class 769 reliability since their introduction.

They have hardly had it easy!

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Let’s be fair - Rhymney has had to put up with serious problems with Class 769 reliability since their introduction.

They have hardly had it easy!

And the Gloucester to Newport line has had mass XC cancellations!

What I'm saying is downgrading your product in one area just to upgrade it to another is silly.

Frankly, TfW should not be giving up the 170s, then there'd be no issue introducing 231s ON Rhymney services. But, it's the Welsh government, and not voting for further devolution means you should have worse public services and the highest taxes!!

 

[el_lnrd]

And the Gloucester to Newport line has had mass XC cancellations!

What I'm saying is downgrading your product in one area just to upgrade it to another is silly.

Frankly, TfW should not be giving up the 170s, then there'd be no issue introducing 231s ON Rhymney services. But, it's the Welsh government, and not voting for further devolution means you should have worse public services and the highest taxes!!

Totally agree with you. XCs Cardiff-birmingham route has suffered from mass cancellations. Very limited options to go from Gloucester/Cheltenham to South Wales. Plus their turbostars are honestly a disgrace, the seats are dirty and completely distroyed on par with the rest of the train.

Seeing that the class 170 are going away is very frustrating given they were nice trains to travel on and that a new traction replacements for the 150 to be dominated service will now not come before a very long time. We were also supposed to get a full one train per hour service from december 2023 but again this has been dropped. Anyway I suppose it is not the right place for this...

 

[Anonymous10]

Not making South Monmouthshire suffer like every other time? Why do we get a downgrade when Rhymney gets an upgrade with trains meant for our services?

We have to fight for buses, if you want to leave after 620 and get to work on time you'd better get the XC. We're sort of fed up with being messed about by every public transportation decision and yet they refuse to build us a bypass in Chepstow. We honestly can't win!!!

take a try living in west wales, however the 769s are unreliable and causing short forms across the network by sucking up 150s and 153s onto the line by replacing them with 231s everyone can get a service

 

[penguin8967]

If the 231's are working Rhymney until the 756's come in, then what's going to be working the Ebbw Vales and Cheltenham's until then? Aren't the 170's meant to be going to EMR early next year?

I believe TfW don't have enough 170s left now (only have the 3 coach ones) to cover all Maesteg/Ebbw Vale/Cheltenham services - it's becoming increasingly common for a 150 or pair of 153s to pop up on these now (see screenshot below).

 

[Wyrleybart]

Frankly, TfW should not be giving up the 170s, then there'd be no issue introducing 231s ON Rhymney services. But, it's the Welsh government, and not voting for further devolution means you should have worse public services and the highest taxes!!

I suspect it is DfT telling TfW that they wouldnt be keeping the 170s.
EMR is THE up and coming operator hence why DfT are swinging 170s towards them as much as possible.

In my view all the new rolling stock types will be come a millstone round the necks of the Senedd. Class 197 231 398 and 756 as well as more Mk4s will make TPE's triple traction sem like a walk in the park, as well as stabling all the trains in the conversion from to new. I presume Barry will fuldfil the role that the MNR new sidings did for the Stadler fleet in Anglia.

What are the usage differences between 231 and 756 ? And once electrified are there distinct routes for 398s or 756s, or will there be dual operation under the OLE ?

 

[Energy]

I suspect it is DfT telling TfW that they wouldnt be keeping the 170s.

TfW is fully devolved to the Welsh Government. I'm more suprised that the 170s were on such a short lease.

What are the usage differences between 231 and 756 ? And once electrified are there distinct routes for 398s or 756s, or will there be dual operation under the OLE ?

231s have more engines (I think) and no pantograph. Class 756s have batteries as well.

 

[Wyrleybart]

231s have more engines (I think) and no pantograph. Class 756s have batteries as well.

Apologies. I meant 756 and 398, as they are both able to run under the OLE.

 

[Rhydgaled]

TfW is fully devolved to the Welsh Government. I'm more suprised that the 170s were on such a short lease.

They weren't on a short lease according to TfW's Rolling Stock Minimum Requirements and Specifications published at/near/for the start of the 15 year KeolisAmey franchise - in fact they appear to have been on the longest lease of any of the TfW fleets (even the brand new stock was only leased until the end of the franchise, the 170s appear to have been leased beyond the end of the franchise).

 

[craigybagel]

What are the usage differences between 231 and 756 ? And once electrified are there distinct routes for 398s or 756s, or will there be dual operation under the OLE ?

398s are tram trains, and specifically for Treherbert/Aberdare/Merthyr services as some of these will be running to Cardiff Bay, and at the time of ordering there was a plan to extend the branch line there as a tramway. 756s are proper heavy rail only trains, and will be running Rhymney/Coryton to Penarth/Barry Island/Bridgend via VOG services

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2022 ==

TfW is fully devolved to the Welsh Government. I'm more suprised that the 170s were on such a short lease.

They weren't on a short lease according to TfW's Rolling Stock Minimum Requirements and Specifications published at/near/for the start of the 15 year KeolisAmey franchise - in fact they appear to have been on the longest lease of any of the TfW fleets (even the brand new stock was only leased until the end of the franchise, the 170s appear to have been leased beyond the end of the franchise).

The 170s were meant to be staying the length of the franchise, but were rather oddball units in the fleet. To keep them it would have involved a lot of work on gauge clearance and crew training. Sending them to EMR gets them out of this problem, and benefits EMR at the same time who are desperate to get their hands on as many 170s as possible.

In their place TfW have taken on extra MKIVs, and held on to a few 153s. This requires much less training and gauge clearance work.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It would be nice, but in practice the different permutations of stock and routes makes it impractical for a driver to learn every route on every traction. When they learn a new traction they can feel how it compares to the other trains they drive and adapt their style accordingly for each route.

There may be notices posted advising on different stopping points, but otherwise drivers are trusted to cope. They may drive a little more cautiously the first few times, but from what I've heard it's not hard to keep to 150 timings driving a Stadler.

That would be a no then.

From what I have seen of the 231 runs they regularly get tens of minutes ahead of the timings so I assume they have plenty of power for acceleration or speed.