Transport for the North draft 30 year transport plan

[B&I]

You seem to be misunderstanding my comments, or we are in agreement. I said [re the Manchester station] "the services from the south are[n't, sorry] going to fill the lines to capacity are they?" so my comment that the new through platforms at Picadilly should be able to provide the capacity to take NPR services too was spot on. I also meant that the platforms (or the trains) could be built so that both could safely call. I don't think these contradict each other at all.
To B&I I would say why on earth should NPR services terminate in Manchester? Surely the idea is to have a coast to coast trunk route and leave the terminal platforms at Manchester for local terminators.

By terminating platforms at Manchester, I meant in the new station for HS2 services. Although the distortions being forced on the route by the set-in-stone approach to HS2's Manchester end might make you think otherwise, there would be little point to an NPR that does not run through. Had someone done something to get local terminators out of Piccadilly, remodelled platforms extending from the existing shed might have been sufficient.

 

[edwin_m]

Could we have a sort of gauntletted track, with NPR trains diverging at a set of points to run closer to the platform? Probably "too complicated" to consider doing (besides "not invented here") and after all, if it can go wrong it will!

Wouldn't work at the spacing you need. Gauntlet track needs the rails to be far enough apart that they can be separately attached to the sleepers.

 

[Bevan Price]

The current proposal for HS2 has the tunnel surfacing about 1000m east of Piccadilly, and running on the surface through an area which is largely derelict or contains property that could be re-developed. This is enough distance for it to climb up over the Mancunian Way and into new platforms at moreorless the same altitude as the existing elevated terminus at Piccadilly.

If arriving from the west it would pass through the city centre, where demolition for a ramp and surface running would be unacceptable until reaching the vicinity of Gateway House (the S-shaped building on the Piccadilly approach). From a portal here there wouldn't be enough length for the tracks to reach the surface before the start of the platforms. So the whole station area would have to be excavated to well below ground level, increasing costs considerably, and the NPR tracks continuing out of the east end of the station would probably have to remain sub-surface until beyond Mancunian Way.

Any underground station at Manchester Piccadilly would need to be very deep, expensive, and possibly prone to water ingress and flooding. If you look at maps, the area includes the River Medlock, plus two canals (Rochdale & Ashton), which any railway would probably need to pass beneath.

 

[AndrewE]

Wouldn't work at the spacing you need. Gauntlet track needs the rails to be far enough apart that they can be separately attached to the sleepers.

That's an interesting challenge... At points and also where check rails are installed we currently have twin chairs, but maybe they can only work on bullhead rail (so it might still be an option seeing as it would be for platforms only.) Alternatively, Vignoles rail with 2 grooves?
Is there anywhere that a check rail is installed where flat-bottomed rail is in use? How is it done?

 

[B&I]

Any underground station at Manchester Piccadilly would need to be very deep, expensive, and possibly prone to water ingress and flooding. If you look at maps, the area includes the River Medlock, plus two canals (Rochdale & Ashton), which any railway would probably need to pass beneath.

How would the Picc-Vic tunnel have negotiated these obstacles? I appreciate an underground station box will be bigger than a single tunnel with a stop at Piccadilly, but it still suggests the problem is far from impossible.

Also, it looks to me from the map as if the canals pass to the north and west of the area east of Piccadilly which is, I assume, earmarked for the HS2 / NPR terminal. The Medlock does run immediately to the east, but looks as if it is partly culverted.

 

[Ploughman]

That's an interesting challenge... At points and also where check rails are installed we currently have twin chairs, but maybe they can only work on bullhead rail (so it might still be an option seeing as it would be for platforms only.) Alternatively, Vignoles rail with 2 grooves?
Is there anywhere that a check rail is installed where flat-bottomed rail is in use? How is it done?

Rail head width of 113a Rail is approx 70mm any difference in dimension between platform clearances less than approx 150mm will not be possible. Allowing for rail head width and a space for an additional rail with no regard for rail foot width.

 

[edwin_m]

That's an interesting challenge... At points and also where check rails are installed we currently have twin chairs, but maybe they can only work on bullhead rail (so it might still be an option seeing as it would be for platforms only.) Alternatively, Vignoles rail with 2 grooves?
Is there anywhere that a check rail is installed where flat-bottomed rail is in use? How is it done?

Modern check-rail is a sort of inverted L-section with the vertical on the inner side and the horizontal projecting towards the running rail, so it overhangs the foot of the running rail and the fixings. It's a much lighter section than running rail as well as having a more angular head profile, so highly unlikely it could carry trains.

 

[Holly]

How would the Picc-Vic tunnel have negotiated these obstacles? I appreciate an underground station box will be bigger than a single tunnel with a stop at Piccadilly, but it still suggests the problem is far from impossible.
Also, it looks to me from the map as if the canals pass to the north and west of the area east of Piccadilly which is, I assume, earmarked for the HS2 / NPR terminal. The Medlock does run immediately to the east, but looks as if it is partly culverted.

So an alternative is to delete the HS2 terminus at Piccadilly entirely and build an HS2 through station at Victoria instead. Isn't this accomplished by digging 9 miles of tunnel instead of 8? A relatively small change for the huge benefit of having a through station.

 

[B&I]

So an alternative is to delete the HS2 terminus at Piccadilly entirely and build an HS2 through station at Victoria instead. Isn't this accomplished by digging 9 miles of tunnel instead of 8? A relatively small change for the huge benefit of having a through station.

My personal preference would be
1. a joint HS2 / NPR line entering Manchester from roughly the south west, connecting to the HS2 spine and an NPR line to Warrington and Liverpool, with a shorter tunnel from around Trafford Park to Victoria
2. knocking down the badly-placed blight of the MEN Arena, and replacing it with terminus platforms at Victoria for HS2, and through platforms for NPR
3. continuing NPR east from Victoria towarda Bradford
4. improving connectivity at Victoria, and across Manchester as a whole, by building something like the Picc-Vic link
5. improving local lines around Cheshire to connect more people to HS2 at Warrington, Crewe and Manchester
6. if that isn't enough, building a north-east Cheshire parkway on the HS2 main line, perhaps where it crosses the CLC line. If you extended Metrolink to that, I suspect it would be as well-connected to the actual airport as the proposed 'airport' station will be.

However, I am aware that this amounts to heresy, as it does not recognise a field, shortly to contain some glorified trading estate, on the wrong side of Manchester Airport as the single most important destination in the known universe, aroubd which all public transport north of about Fenny Stratford must be planned.

 

[swt_passenger]

Modern check-rail is a sort of inverted L-section with the vertical on the inner side and the horizontal projecting towards the running rail, so it overhangs the foot of the running rail and the fixings. It's a much lighter section than running rail as well as having a more angular head profile, so highly unlikely it could carry trains.

Her's a picture to add to your description:

 

[Chester1]

My personal preference would be
1. a joint HS2 / NPR line entering Manchester from roughly the south west, connecting to the HS2 spine and an NPR line to Warrington and Liverpool, with a shorter tunnel from around Trafford Park to Victoria
2. knocking down the badly-placed blight of the MEN Arena, and replacing it with terminus platforms at Victoria for HS2, and through platforms for NPR
3. continuing NPR east from Victoria towarda Bradford
4. improving connectivity at Victoria, and across Manchester as a whole, by building something like the Picc-Vic link
5. improving local lines around Cheshire to connect more people to HS2 at Warrington, Crewe and Manchester
6. if that isn't enough, building a north-east Cheshire parkway on the HS2 main line, perhaps where it crosses the CLC line. If you extended Metrolink to that, I suspect it would be as well-connected to the actual airport as the proposed 'airport' station will be.

However, I am aware that this amounts to heresy, as it does not recognise a field, shortly to contain some glorified trading estate, on the wrong side of Manchester Airport as the single most important destination in the known universe, aroubd which all public transport north of about Fenny Stratford must be planned.

Your suggestion would mean Piccadilly would not be served by HS2 or NPR! It is in a more useful location and would still have some terminating services and some to/from Oxford Road not linked to HS2 / NPR. I know the Arena is hated by many who can remember the old Victoria but it is not going to get demolished any time soon! Even if it was there is not sufficient space for multiple 400m+ platforms.

 

[B&I]

Your suggestion would mean Piccadilly would not be served by HS2 or NPR! It is in a more useful location and would still have some terminating services and some to/from Oxford Road not linked to HS2 / NPR. I know the Arena is hated by many who can remember the old Victoria but it is not going to get demolished any time soon! Even if it was there is not sufficient space for multiple 400m+ platforms.

The extra platforms would have to be partly underground at Victoria, thanks to the enthusiasm we have in this country for building ugly flats very close to railway stations. Still, I don't think Victoria is that much worse connected than Piccadilly as things stand in HS2 / NPR terms, not least as many of the lines from Piccadilly do, or could, connect to other HS2 stations. If the Picc-Vic Link was built, as it probably should be anyway, any advantage for Piccadilly would evaporate.

 

[AndrewE]

Here's a picture to add to your description:

Thanks, it is just a specialised chair with 2 lengths of steel attached then. So why can't we consider another special chair with 2 rails fixed to it? Even if the spacing doesn't leave space for the feet of FBR and it has to be something like bullhead?

 

[Chester1]

The extra platforms would have to be partly underground at Victoria, thanks to the enthusiasm we have in this country for building ugly flats very close to railway stations. Still, I don't think Victoria is that much worse connected than Piccadilly as things stand in HS2 / NPR terms, not least as many of the lines from Piccadilly do, or could, connect to other HS2 stations. If the Picc-Vic Link was built, as it probably should be anyway, any advantage for Piccadilly would evaporate.

Partly underground at Victoria will be more expensive than dug out at Piccadilly (demolishing industrial units not a huge concert venue). Those flats provide a very accessible home for a large number of people!

 

[Bevan Price]

The extra platforms would have to be partly underground at Victoria, thanks to the enthusiasm we have in this country for building ugly flats very close to railway stations. Still, I don't think Victoria is that much worse connected than Piccadilly as things stand in HS2 / NPR terms, not least as many of the lines from Piccadilly do, or could, connect to other HS2 stations. If the Picc-Vic Link was built, as it probably should be anyway, any advantage for Piccadilly would evaporate.

An underground statiom at Victoria would also not be easy, when you have the River Irwell passing under the western approach to Victoria - and the River Irk passing under the eastern approach.

 

[edwin_m]

An underground statiom at Victoria would also not be easy, when you have the River Irwell passing under the western approach to Victoria - and the River Irk passing under the eastern approach.

And under parts of the station itself.

 

[WatcherZero]

Tunneling under the Irwell is going to be easier than tunneling under the Thames except at Victoria the station is directly above rivers so Piccadilly becomes easier choice.

 

[B&I]

Tunneling under the Irwell is going to be easier than tunneling under the Thames except at Victoria the station is directly above rivers so Piccadilly becomes easier choice.

What is the condition of the undercroft at Victoria, and what use could be made of it? I seem to remember that a runaway Pacer spent its final days there, like a naughty train in a Rev Awdry story.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its just warehousing cellar space like many old stations when freight trains still served them, its presently unused.

 

[edwin_m]

What is the condition of the undercroft at Victoria, and what use could be made of it? I seem to remember that a runaway Pacer spent its final days there, like a naughty train in a Rev Awdry story.

I think it was just a cab end, not a whole vehicle.

 

[Chester1]

What is the condition of the undercroft at Victoria, and what use could be made of it? I seem to remember that a runaway Pacer spent its final days there, like a naughty train in a Rev Awdry story.

It is far too small for HS2 and NPR trains. Lord Adonis proposal to use Piccadilly undercroft would require digging out space under the tracks into the main shed. The suggestion to dig out a huge submerged station box next to the planned HS2 platforms would probably be the best option.

 

[B&I]

I think it was just a cab end, not a whole vehicle.

I think you're right, but I.liked the notion of a Pacer bricked up.like whatever naughty engine it was who refused to come out of a tunnel.

Purely hypothetically, as there is no chance of a route being built which doesn't serve a field on the wrong side of Manchester Airport, would the presence of the undercroft facilitate construction of an underground station at Victoria, even assuming that the actual tracks nd platforms would be in a box beneath it?

 

[edwin_m]

I think you're right, but I.liked the notion of a Pacer bricked up.like whatever naughty engine it was who refused to come out of a tunnel.

Purely hypothetically, as there is no chance of a route being built which doesn't serve a field on the wrong side of Manchester Airport, would the presence of the undercroft facilitate construction of an underground station at Victoria, even assuming that the actual tracks nd platforms would be in a box beneath it?

The ground at Victoria slopes down towards the Irwell, so that the northern part of the station is about at ground level and the southern part is above. So the undercroft probably only exists under part of the station. It might be possible to use it as an intermediate landing or a ticket hall for platforms lower down. However those platforms would have to be very deep to be below the Irk which passes under the station and the Irwell that it runs into, and the land continues to rise quite steeply towards Miles Platting so even at the maximum gradients possible with high performance EMUs the east portal would be quite far away.

I think I'm coming round to the idea where trains from Liverpool and the airport enter new Piccadilly platforms going west before entering a new tunnel which turns through 180 degrees. This could surface alongside the Miles Platting to Stalybridge line near Baguley Fold Junction, and as an interim stage could just feed trains into that route. In the longer term a cut-off might be possible from somewhere near Clayton Bridge to somewhere near Diggle, following the Medlock then tunnelling under the ridge near Lydgate. However that wouldn't work for trains to Sheffield.

 

[Chester1]

The ground at Victoria slopes down towards the Irwell, so that the northern part of the station is about at ground level and the southern part is above. So the undercroft probably only exists under part of the station. It might be possible to use it as an intermediate landing or a ticket hall for platforms lower down. However those platforms would have to be very deep to be below the Irk which passes under the station and the Irwell that it runs into, and the land continues to rise quite steeply towards Miles Platting so even at the maximum gradients possible with high performance EMUs the east portal would be quite far away.

I think I'm coming round to the idea where trains from Liverpool and the airport enter new Piccadilly platforms going west before entering a new tunnel which turns through 180 degrees. This could surface alongside the Miles Platting to Stalybridge line near Baguley Fold Junction, and as an interim stage could just feed trains into that route. In the longer term a cut-off might be possible from somewhere near Clayton Bridge to somewhere near Diggle, following the Medlock then tunnelling under the ridge near Lydgate. However that wouldn't work for trains to Sheffield.

TfN wants NPR to run via Bradford, if they have their wish then surely NPR will be a rebuild or replacement of the Calderdale line. That would certainly remove issues in regards to building it while services opperate because sections could be closed for as long as necessary.

 

[B&I]

The ground at Victoria slopes down towards the Irwell, so that the northern part of the station is about at ground level and the southern part is above. So the undercroft probably only exists under part of the station. It might be possible to use it as an intermediate landing or a ticket hall for platforms lower down. However those platforms would have to be very deep to be below the Irk which passes under the station and the Irwell that it runs into, and the land continues to rise quite steeply towards Miles Platting so even at the maximum gradients possible with high performance EMUs the east portal would be quite far away.

I think I'm coming round to the idea where trains from Liverpool and the airport enter new Piccadilly platforms going west before entering a new tunnel which turns through 180 degrees. This could surface alongside the Miles Platting to Stalybridge line near Baguley Fold Junction, and as an interim stage could just feed trains into that route. In the longer term a cut-off might be possible from somewhere near Clayton Bridge to somewhere near Diggle, following the Medlock then tunnelling under the ridge near Lydgate. However that wouldn't work for trains to Sheffield.

My initial difficulty with the 180 degree tunnel idea was that diagrams I had seen showing it indicated a huge horseshoe underneath the city centre, simply in order to turn trains round so they could enter the NPR station from the east and leave again eastward, roughly towards Guide Bridge.

My first reaction was to wonder why the approach tunnel could not be re-directed to prevent this, if there was going to have to be this horseshoe tunnel under the built-up area west of Piccadilly. My second reaction was to wonder whether Victoria would be a better site for an NPR (and HS2) station, were it not for the requirement that both serve a field on the wrong side of Manchester Airport.

Now, however, the powers that be have remembered the existence of Britain's sixth biggest city, the idea of a train entering Piccadilly from the east in order to head east on NPR makes more sense, as the overall direction of travel after Piccadilly will be more like northward than westward. Bearing in mind there'll have to be a junction into the HS2 approach tunnel sonewhere, if NPR will be at or below ground level and the HS2 terminus will be elevated, would the best orientation for the NPR platforms be more like north-south to allow the Bradford-direction approach track to be built without having to go under the city centre at all?

 

[B&I]

TfN wants NPR to run via Bradford, if they have their wish then surely NPR will be a rebuild or replacement of the Calderdale line. That would certainly remove issues in regards to building it while services opperate because sections could be closed for as long as necessary.

Really? Even though the Caldervale line is very slow in places, fairly indirect, and is heavily used from numerous local stations in an area with very poor road access? Let's hope that 'replacement' with a new alignment is what is in store.

 

[snowball]

Really? Even though the Caldervale line is very slow in places, fairly indirect, and is heavily used from numerous local stations in an area with very poor road access? Let's hope that 'replacement' with a new alignment is what is in store.

The existing route from Victoria via Rochdale to a point near Littleborough is already, in all basic respects, excellently aligned for high speed. But it needs some four-tracking, and a new long tunnel from somewhere near Littleborough to somewhere near Sowerby Bridge, plus thought given to how to approach Bradford and how to approach Leeds.

 

[matacaster]

The recommended NPR route(s) have been an open secret for some time now and more details have been posted in the High Speed Forum.

Of particular relevance to this thread are:
- Manchester-Leeds will be a new alignment serving Bradford.
- Leeds-York will use the HS2 route between Garforth and Church Fenton/York

It will be interesting to see how the two schemes are received, if plans are published close together.

When they get realistic costs for a station serving Bradford and the difficulties of serving it owing to the topography of pretty much whatever route is chosen, one suspects the nearest that NPR will get to Bradford is Huddersfield or Leeds!!
(or just possibly a station on the trackbed of the now closed route from Huddersfield to Leeds if some of that is reopened as NPR).

 

[anti-pacer]

I don't mean to be thick, but what is "NPR"?

 

[matacaster]

Could we have a sort of gauntletted track, with NPR trains diverging at a set of points to run closer to the platform? Probably "too complicated" to consider doing (besides "not invented here") and after all, if it can go wrong it will!

Whilst some people have suggested this is not possible, Why, if the 6' was increased to say around 7' (not sure of precise figure), wouldn't gauntletted track on oversized sleepers work, with the platform rails being thus far enough away from main running rails yet not fouling the TPWS etc. Please advise if I am wrong.