Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[Elecman]

Galv should definitely be treated with an etch primer first imho.

Indeed

 

[AndrewE]

Galv should definitely be treated with an etch primer first imho.

my paint/polymers specialist friend says that the best primer for galvanising is to let it weather for a year!

 

[WAO]

One reason for Galvanising is to avoid the need for painting.

They'll be telling us electrification is too expensive next.

WAO

 

[edwin_m]

It's usual to paint a band of a contrasting colour round lamp posts and similar platform furniture. It may even be an accessibility standard, as a grey galvanised lamp post isn't the easiest thing to see for the partially sighted.

 

[WAO]

Isn't there already a clip on code label and warning notice?

WAO

 

[Elecman]

It's usual to paint a band of a contrasting colour round lamp posts and similar platform furniture. It may even be an accessibility standard, as a grey galvanised lamp post isn't the easiest thing to see for the partially sighted.

Also banded in colour to identify what post dropping spring is to be used to lower the posts

 

[AndrewE]

One reason for Galvanising is to avoid the need for painting.

They'll be telling us electrification is too expensive next.

WAO

Maybe, but isn't that if the paint is just there to protect the steel? I believe that

a) the zinc acts as a sacrificial anode and the steel is protected until it (all?) disappears - quite unlike the loss of a patch of paint
b) all galvanising zinc contains a significant lead content which both improves adhesion to the steel and substantially reduces corrosion/loss of the zinc - besides making the galvanising bath itself last a lot longer
c) you can put off the loss of the zinc (forever?) if you over-paint it
d) BR "claw-coat," known elsewhere as "etch-primer" is a way of getting the primer to adhere to relatively young zinc, before you apply a top-coat to protect the primer. I suspect that the yellow "staining" on the old WCML steelwork is probably the top-coat having gone and the primer now being exposed and progressively lost.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Maybe, but isn't that if the paint is just there to protect the steel? I believe that

a) the zinc acts as a sacrificial anode and the steel is protected until it (all?) disappears - quite unlike the loss of a patch of paint
b) all galvanising zinc contains a significant lead content which both improves adhesion to the steel and substantially reduces corrosion/loss of the zinc - besides making the galvanising bath itself last a lot longer
c) you can put off the loss of the zinc (forever?) if you over-paint it
d) BR "claw-coat," known elsewhere as "etch-primer" is a way of getting the primer to adhere to relatively young zinc, before you apply a top-coat to protect the primer. I suspect that the yellow "staining" on the old WCML steelwork is probably the top-coat having gone and the primer now being exposed and progressively lost.

My recollection, for what it's worth, is that around 1970 the masts, at least South of Rugby, were painted first with a pale yellow paint and that was then overpainted with a glossier coat possibly dark grey. It seemed to be done piecemeal - sometimes only as far as, presumably, was safe without an isolation and subsequently, completed when one was required for other work. Quite often the part done pale yellow was covered by the top coat leaving the pale yellow visible at the top, before the painting the mast was finished.
It seemed to be un-necessary at the time (why paint galvanised?) but now makes sense. By that time, the galvanised finish had lost its initial shininess and was dull grey.
Maybe worth pointing out that in those days when there was a Sunday possession or isolation as well as the main job other minor jobs like painting were scheduled to be done at the same time. If the main job was completed and handed back these other jobs might not have been finished but just waited for the next weekend.
The pale yellow finish was exactly the same colour as the etch primer for aluminium that I used for aluminium perhaps 25 years ago. This was using a thin clear activator added to the thicker yellow base; a short active life of about half an hour and the attachment was, I think, by sub-atomic (electrons to neutrons???) attraction, not mechanical..

 

[Spartacus]

And of course they've provided an uncovered footbridge. Good luck to users on dark winter snowy/icy nights.
They are scrimping on what should be basic facilities but can waste money adorning the station with the old BR double arrow signs.

I guess the trouble with covered bridges at unstaffed stations is you're making it more comfortable for passengers for a few seconds, but also more comfortable to miscreants who might decide to stay there much longer causing trouble.

ON the subject of the shelters, they certainly looked a lot more like solid structures with windows on the initial images here than the shelters they now seem to be, though that said some of the platforms at stations like York get similar.

 

[fishwomp]

I guess the trouble with covered bridges at unstaffed stations is you're making it more comfortable for passengers for a few seconds, but also more comfortable to miscreants who might decide to stay there much longer causing trouble.

ON the subject of the shelters, they certainly looked a lot more like solid structures with windows on the initial images here than the shelters they now seem to be, though that said some of the platforms at stations like York get similar.

They're quite solid - but 'airy', no door to shut but back-to-back (ie. two sides). Also from the mock-up there, the grilled fencing around the entrance hall isn't as see-through.
There's a second shelter on the west side is a considerable distance (particularly in the rain) from the one at the top of steps. It's fairly obvious from a flow/dwell perspective that the top of the steps and that shelter is where everyone will board - rain or otherwise.

 

[Killingworth]

I guess the trouble with covered bridges at unstaffed stations is you're making it more comfortable for passengers for a few seconds, but also more comfortable to miscreants who might decide to stay there much longer causing trouble.

ON the subject of the shelters, they certainly looked a lot more like solid structures with windows on the initial images here than the shelters they now seem to be, though that said some of the platforms at stations like York get similar.

Covered bridges, shelters - a puzzling subject.

On shelters they can't be of brick and wood with glass windows and doors that close to help keep you warm. Think of the maintenance and potential vandalism plus the temptation for vagrants to bed down.

Sadly in 2026 woodwork in all public buildings tends to be neglected until the rot has set in. 150 year old railway brickwork is crumbling. Standard 'bus shelter' structures are all we get, windows are a bonus. A few cold metal seats and perches are added.

Size? Depends on grading of station determined by passenger numbers and staffing. On which platform and where? Depends if anyone has checked traffic flows. Usually positioned near entrance to platform or at foot of footbridge.

Footbridge and cover? That's a strange one. New footbridges and lifts are similar in style but by no means the same. Kirkstall Forge is very much an outlier with all its very vulnerable glass - but shelters with gauze rather than glazing!

For some things Dore & Totley came under the TRU umbrella - and got a covered footbridge. Curiously snow blew in last winter and settled on the cross span and stairs for longer than on the platform! However it does give addtional and very welcome sheltered capacity when the rain is hammering down. The two small shelters can get very cosy.

 

[YorksLad12]

I guess the trouble with covered bridges at unstaffed stations is you're making it more comfortable for passengers for a few seconds, but also more comfortable to miscreants who might decide to stay there much longer causing trouble.

Not just miscreants. The footbridge and stairs at Kirkstall Forge seem to attract lots of bird life - there's feathers and... other stuff everywhere whenever I visit.

 

[takno]

Covered bridges, shelters - a puzzling subject.

On shelters they can't be of brick and wood with glass windows and doors that close to help keep you warm. Think of the maintenance and potential vandalism plus the temptation for vagrants to bed down.

I'm not sure we're in a good place as a country if we refuse to provide waiting rooms out of a fear that homeless people might inadvertently be provided with basic shelter from the elements.

 

[Killingworth]

I'm not sure we're in a good place as a country if we refuse to provide waiting rooms out of a fear that homeless people might inadvertently be provided with basic shelter from the elements.

Sadly, we aren't. Bench seats removed from shelters, e.g. Penistone. Northern's newly installed toilet pods vandalised and taken out of service, e.g. Broadbottom. Kirkstall Forge footbridge looked brilliant whan new. I gather it didn't last like that for long.

Homelessness is only part of the issue with many of the things that are provided vandalised very quickly. Thankfully not everywhere but in too many places and it deters further provision.

 

[Angmering1974]

The decline starts at unstaffed stations IMO. Take away the staff, then you can't have toilets, no waiting rooms, etc. No eyes and ears to sort out issues.

I haven't spent much time in the Merseyrail area but they seem to have more staff, thus more waiting rooms/shelter/toilets etc?

If TRU/WYPTE has no plans to increase staffed stations then don't hold your breath for any better station services!

 

[zwk500]

I'm not sure we're in a good place as a country if we refuse to provide waiting rooms out of a fear that homeless people might inadvertently be provided with basic shelter from the elements.

The issue of 'aggressive' design is a longstanding one in the UK generally, not just in railway station design.

On shelters they can't be of brick and wood with glass windows and doors that close to help keep you warm. Think of the maintenance and potential vandalism plus the temptation for vagrants to bed down.

Of course, a long canopy with solid back would provide much of the desired cover without being overly attractive to any 'undesirables'.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

The decline starts at unstaffed stations IMO. Take away the staff, then you can't have toilets, no waiting rooms, etc. No eyes and ears to sort out issues.

Most London Overground stations don't have toilets but do have staff, usually locked away in cabins and almost never on the platforms!

 

[Grumpy]

Not just miscreants. The footbridge and stairs at Kirkstall Forge seem to attract lots of bird life - there's feathers and... other stuff everywhere whenever I visit.

I noticed that the (covered) footbridge at Castleford seemed to be well provided with anti-bird measures, spikes on potential nesting/resting surfaces etc.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I noticed that the (covered) footbridge at Castleford seemed to be well provided with anti-bird measures, spikes on potential nesting/resting surfaces etc.

Only after immediately after opening the handrails and floor were covered in pigeon excrement to the point it was a public health hazard.

 

[Mr Mean]

My frustration for the TPU stations is that it is a once in a lifetime renewal and the fact that a simple structure (literally just a roof propped up by some steel work) was not added to any of the stations. Instead there are glorified bus shelters.

Jealously, you speed through the paused White Rose Station construction site and you can see clearly there is a roof structure been built, but at Morley which will see more passengers, there is nothing. Again, seeing videos of the new Darlington platform with the vast length of shelter makes me incredibly frustrated. Why are shelters from the elements good enough for some stations and not others.

 

[Alexd]

My frustration for the TPU stations is that it is a once in a lifetime renewal and the fact that a simple structure (literally just a roof propped up by some steel work) was not added to any of the stations. Instead there are glorified bus shelters.

Jealously, you speed through the paused White Rose Station construction site and you can see clearly there is a roof structure been built, but at Morley which will see more passengers, there is nothing. Again, seeing videos of the new Darlington platform with the vast length of shelter makes me incredibly frustrated. Why are shelters from the elements good enough for some stations and not others.

Good point, however, in the case of the white rose station, that’s not part of TRU, it’s being funded by West Yorkshire, so will have gone through a separate design process.

 

[Tetragon213]

Good point, however, in the case of the white rose station, that’s not part of TRU, it’s being funded by West Yorkshire, so will have gone through a separate design process.

White Rose's future is in doubt, however, after the previous contractor seemingly walked off the job.

 

[Geeves]

White Rose's future is in doubt, however, after the previous contractor seemingly walked off the job.

They didn't just walk off, the bill suddenly became millions higher, then no one wanted to pay, then they walked off the job

 

[Freightmaster]

They didn't just walk off, the bill suddenly became millions higher, then no one wanted to pay, then they walked off the job

cutting off their nose to spite their face?!



MARK

 

[Killingworth]

They didn't just walk off, the bill suddenly became millions higher, then no one wanted to pay, then they walked off the job

As with many projects a combination of unexpected problems with construction, added extras and inflation during the period from planning to completion, plus multiple funders has scuppered this for now. (The Northumberland Park station on the Ashington line has been suffering from similar.) We may well question how the bill suddenly became so much higher.

However it's not having the funds to pay as much as wanting to pay that's the problem. All sources of public finance are under severe pressure so anything that can be cut or delayed will be. Contractors can't carry on working indefinitely without payment. They need to concentrate on work for which they'll receive income to pay their own workers and creditors.

 

[Spartacus]

We may well question how the bill suddenly became so much higher.

I'd love to know how much was to do with the a very old mine shaft within the station footprint, necessitating an indirect approach on the up side of the station.

 

[Grumpy]

My frustration for the TPU stations is that it is a once in a lifetime renewal and the fact that a simple structure (literally just a roof propped up by some steel work) was not added to any of the stations. Instead there are glorified bus shelters.

Indeed. "They" wont spend a relative pittance on sheltering passengers from the elements but were happy to waste £200m on abortive planning work.

 

[Killingworth]

Indeed. "They" wont spend a relative pittance on sheltering passengers from the elements but were happy to waste £200m on abortive planning work.

Or a £100m bat tunnel - you'd get a few decent waiting rooms for that price.

 

[AndrewE]

Or a £100m bat tunnel - you'd get a few decent waiting rooms for that price.

that's what you get for a "costs-plus" contract. Every layer and sub-layer of the contracting and subcontracting structure casts around for reasons to embroider the job and inflate the bill.

According to the bits of the media without an axe to grind there was no environmental input on that development whatsoever - apart (probably) from a tame, i.e. weak, in-house "consultant" who said enough to allow the project teams to run off on their own ego trip/income generator.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Not easy to see in either the dark or dusk at speed but I think all the new track is laid at Church Fenton, they appear to be into OLE, some bits of signalling and reinstating the platforms at Church Fenton. Seems like a other two weeks is quite a lot of time to do just that.

Every time I have passed its been a hive of activity though.