Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[37424]

That illustrates how bi-modes have transformed the economics of electrification. Even quite short streches of new OHLE can still deliver financial returns if there is enough traffic on the route - you don't need end-to-end wires for it to work. And as NR says "This is one of the busiest stretches of railway in the north". And some traction on this route being diesel-only voyagers is only marginally relevant to the business case: the next generation of passenger traction for cross country routes is almost certainly going to be wholly bimode.

Well indeed plus the benefits that the Bi-modes are bringing in reducing Diesel miles seem to be conveniently ignored by many on this forum, look at the amount diesel running that's been reduced on the ECML, and of course on the TPE route which will allow Bi-modes to take advantage of electrification in stages.

 

[mwmbwls]

I think the issue is that the part south of Church Fenton is tangled up with HS2 and NPR (incidentally in a webinar recently the head of NPR mentioned they wanted to push ahead with Leeds to Hull first). So any work done there now might have to be re-done as part of one or both of those schemes. I assume they've decided what needs doing north of Church Fenton that is future-proof against these schemes, and taken the sensible approach of hanging the wires at the same time as they do the track and signaling so all the disruption is in one hit.

This would appear to be a eminently sensible approach that could be applied to other major track renewals.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Lets crack on with the parts that are ready. Now is the perfect time.

Yes, but which parts are "ready"?
The Treasury usually wants a closely-argued business case before opening the coffers.
Do you wire Stalybridge with or without remodelling the layout to favour the Victoria route?
Any track work and resignalling will have to take its place in a sequence which NR can deliver (often the limiting factor).
ETCS is in the mix somewhere, and the ECML has priority for that and will take years.
Elsewhere, completing the MML appears to have priority for wiring.

 

[WAO]

The "ready" parts are the short terminating commuter routes in the conurbations. These carry large numbers and would have immediate economic benefit and for which the s/h stock will be sitting in sidings already.

At Birmingham this includes the Stratford and Leamington lines to Kidderminster and Worcester. In Lancashire it includes the Rose Hill, New Mills, Buxton, Rochdale, Stalybridge and Warrington lines, with the routes to Chester via Frodsham. In Yorkshire it means wiring into Sheffield first from the North, etc etc.

If track layout may change then portals placed on masts piled outside the track area mean that only clamps and wires need be moved.

This would benefit far more people than any prestige IC scheme and was Sir Herbert Walker's approach that saved the Southern.

WAO

 

[59CosG95]

The "ready" parts are the short terminating commuter routes in the conurbations. These carry large numbers and would have immediate economic benefit and for which the s/h stock will be sitting in sidings already.

At Birmingham this includes the Stratford and Leamington lines to Kidderminster and Worcester. In Lancashire it includes the Rose Hill, New Mills, Buxton, Rochdale, Stalybridge and Warrington lines, with the routes to Chester via Frodsham. In Yorkshire it means wiring into Sheffield first from the North, etc etc.

If track layout may change then portals placed on masts piled outside the track area mean that only clamps and wires need be moved.

This would benefit far more people than any prestige IC scheme and was Sir Herbert Walker's approach that saved the Southern.

WAO

I think, barring a miracle, it'll be a while before we see any wires over the Snow Hill Lines, bearing in mind WMR has only just started to take delivery of the new Class 196 units.
Certainly wiring more of the lines in Greater Manchester & Yorkshire would seem to have more clout behind them.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The "ready" parts are the short terminating commuter routes in the conurbations. These carry large numbers and would have immediate economic benefit and for which the s/h stock will be sitting in sidings already.

At Birmingham this includes the Stratford and Leamington lines to Kidderminster and Worcester. In Lancashire it includes the Rose Hill, New Mills, Buxton, Rochdale, Stalybridge and Warrington lines, with the routes to Chester via Frodsham. In Yorkshire it means wiring into Sheffield first from the North, etc etc.

I get that electrifying those lines would have huge benefits, but How are they 'ready'? Has there already been extensive survey and planning work done to work out how to electrify them that I'm not aware of? And ditto, where bridges would need to raised, have all the relevant plans and consultations for building replacement bridges already been done? And how about the tunnel between Snow Hill and Moor Street? Is that ready (and tall enough) for overhead wires?

If all that work hasn't been done, then I don't think you can say those lines are ready for electrification yet, no matter how desirable it might be in principle to do so.

 

[The Ham]

I think, barring a miracle, it'll be a while before we see any wires over the Snow Hill Lines, bearing in mind WMR has only just started to take delivery of the new Class 196 units.
Certainly wiring more of the lines in Greater Manchester & Yorkshire would seem to have more clout behind them.

Chances are that any new (read not been paused/cancelled) electrification would be far enough away that new DMU's would just be able to move to cover older units which need to be retired.

 

[WAO]

The lines quoted are at least approximately "ready" in that they are close to new auto transformer grid supply points with some spare capacity. They are the most expensive and long lead items. The lines are short so even full GRIP planning should be in months not years. Finally, NR, for all it's problems, has been on a painful learning curve so is now able to manage projects and technical problems (such as clearances and ROCS) much better.

Didn't Railtrack do Crewe Alsager (8 miles) in 10 months?

Can do or can't do?

WAO

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The lines quoted are at least approximately "ready" in that they are close to new auto transformer grid supply points with some spare capacity. They are the most expensive and long lead items. The lines are short so even full GRIP planning should be in months not years. Finally, NR, for all it's problems, has been on a painful learning curve so is now able to manage projects and technical problems (such as clearances and ROCS) much better.

Didn't Railtrack do Crewe Alsager (8 miles) in 10 months?

Can do or can't do?

WAO

Feeder capacity - is it actually sufficient and what's the alternative feeding arrangements during planned maintenance and during unscheduled disruption ?

Structures cleared, rebuilt or modified where necessary ?

Signalling immunised ? Signal sighting checked with OLE structures positioning ? Signals moved where required ?

Ground surveys undertaken to determine type and position of OLE (and any additional signalling gantry) structure foundations ?

Depot/stabling/turnback sidings planned for rolling stock to be used ?

The better suited a route is to EMU operation, the more complex it will be to electrify, as a general rule of thumb.

 

[The Ham]

The better suited a route is to EMU operation, the more complex it will be to electrify, as a general rule of thumb.

Presumably rural intercity routes with few over bridges and limited service frequency and few stops are easier (note not easy, just easier).

 

[CW2]

The lines quoted are at least approximately "ready" in that they are close to new auto transformer grid supply points with some spare capacity. They are the most expensive and long lead items. The lines are short so even full GRIP planning should be in months not years. Finally, NR, for all it's problems, has been on a painful learning curve so is now able to manage projects and technical problems (such as clearances and ROCS) much better.

Didn't Railtrack do Crewe Alsager (8 miles) in 10 months?

Can do or can't do?

WAO

It was Network Rail that did Crewe - Alsager, not Railtrack. It was done to provide a diversionary route for the West Coast Route Modernisation, specifically during the resignalling / remodelling of Stafford. As such there were contractors already in place and it was an add-on to the existing workbank.
The sort of schemes listed above are largely free-standing, so the benefits of adding-on to and up-and-running scheme really don't apply.
It's important to remember that whenever electrification takes place, there will be effects - sometimes quite convoluted - on the signalling and p.way. Typically, tying in layout simplification, speed upgrades, and resignalling is best achieved at the time of electrification. (You don't want to come back 5 years later and find your ideal track alignment is compromised by a new OLE portal). So the "simple shovels-ready" electrification schemes tend to be a lot gnarlier when looked at more closely.

 

[59CosG95]

The lines quoted are at least approximately "ready" in that they are close to new auto transformer grid supply points with some spare capacity. They are the most expensive and long lead items. The lines are short so even full GRIP planning should be in months not years. Finally, NR, for all it's problems, has been on a painful learning curve so is now able to manage projects and technical problems (such as clearances and ROCS) much better.

Didn't Railtrack do Crewe Alsager (8 miles) in 10 months?

Can do or can't do?

WAO

Crewe - Alsager was easier to electrify as 3 miles of it was (and still is) single track, so there were less structures to install.
And vis-a-vis the grid supply points (and autotransformers), most new commuter corridors have been boosterless classic (e.g. EGIP, SDA, Reading - Newbury, Walsall - Rugeley, Barnt Green - Bromsgrove, Preston - Blackpool, Roby - Wigan NW), more often than not due to the fact that ATF isn't required for the service levels - AT electrified systems require less feeder stations overall, but they also need AT sites at regular intervals, which can add to the cost.
(The Berks & Hants Line was originally due to get ATFs too, but this was descoped to boosterless classic)

GWML, South Wales, Liverpool - Manchester, Manchester - Euxton Jn have all been ATF. In the case of the Western route, the sheer number of intercity/commuter trains, plus the scope for freight in the future meant ATF was a better bet. This also applied to the North West schemes, but for them, they also used the existing WCML ATF supply between Weaver & Euxton Jns until they got Heyrod ATFS online (via the 'Great Extension Lead' - a cabled ATF supply between Heyrod & Man Vic, oft referred to in the now-closed Blackpool - Manchester electrification thread). They also have potential for intercity electric trains, rather than just commuter ones.

Although I'm not a betting man, I'll hedge my bets on TransPennine (via Huddersfield) being ATF. But York - Church Fenton remains an enigma, as the scope of Phase 2 of the ECML Power Supply Upgrade has yet to be agreed. ATF would be likely, but it isn't certain.

 

[Killingworth]

Presumably rural intercity routes with few over bridges and limited service frequency and few stops are easier (note not easy, just easier).

Which is why the Fens line to Kngs Lynn was electrified so far ahead of lines with denser traffic flows.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

-----------l they got Heyrod ATFS online (via the 'Great Extension Lead' - a cabled ATF supply between Heyrod & Man Vic----------. They also have potential for intercity electric trains, rather than just commuter ones.

Although I'm not a betting man, I'll hedge my bets on TransPennine (via Huddersfield) being ATF. But York - Church Fenton remains an enigma, as the scope of Phase 2 of the ECML Power Supply Upgrade has yet to be agreed. ATF would be likely, but it isn't certain.

So I assume Heyrod can feed east - if you were a betting man where would the next one go - Huddersfield I assume?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Which is why the Fens line to Kngs Lynn was electrified so far ahead of lines with denser traffic flows.

Yes.

If only the masts would stop falling over.

 

[Bald Rick]

Which is why the Fens line to Kngs Lynn was electrified so far ahead of lines with denser traffic flows.

It was done to remove an island of diesel working and to enable a significant improvement in journey times and frequency to Kings Lynn. It wasn’t done because it was easy (although it was easy!)

 

[Bald Rick]

The lines quoted are at least approximately "ready" in that they are close to new auto transformer grid supply points with some spare capacity. They are the most expensive and long lead items. The lines are short so even full GRIP planning should be in months not years. Finally, NR, for all it's problems, has been on a painful learning curve so is now able to manage projects and technical problems (such as clearances and ROCS) much better.

Didn't Railtrack do Crewe Alsager (8 miles) in 10 months?

Can do or can't do?

WAO

I admire your optimism.

Crewe - Kidsgrove was several years.

 

[59CosG95]

So I assume Heyrod can feed east - if you were a betting man where would the next one go - Huddersfield I assume?

I recall from the NR plans that Ravensthorpe is planned to be a feeder station. Assuming wires do join up between Hudds & Heyrod, my bets for the Mid Point AT Site would be either side of Standedge. Geographically, either Diggle or Marsden could work, but I suspect Diggle would be preferred as you don't have the canal going between the tracks to deal with!)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Thanks for that - make sense

 

[edwin_m]

I recall from the NR plans that Ravensthorpe is planned to be a feeder station. Assuming wires do join up between Hudds & Heyrod, my bets for the Mid Point AT Site would be either side of Standedge. Geographically, either Diggle or Marsden could work, but I suspect Diggle would be preferred as you don't have the canal going between the tracks to deal with!)

It's actually the River Colne going over the remaining tracks and down the gap between them and the other trackbed - aqueduct and waterfall for the price of one. The canal is off to one side, as it is at Diggle.

Possibly switching at each end so the tunnel can be supplied from either feeder as necessary?

 

[Elecman]

This also applied to the North West schemes, but for them, they also used the existing WCML ATF supply between Weaver & Euxton Jns until they got Heyrod ATFS online (via the 'Great Extension Lead' - a cabled ATF supply between Heyrod & Man Vic, oft referred to in the now-closed Blackpool - Manchester electrification thread).

The Great Extension Lead (HOIF=Heyrod -Ordsall Independant Feeder) doesn’t stop at Man Vic but goes through to Ordsall Lane, making Ordsall Lane a pseudo feeder station for North West electrification. Yes Heyrod is also intended to feed Eastwards in the eventuality of the wires finally going to Leeds

 

[Class 170101]

Which is why the Fens line to Kngs Lynn was electrified so far ahead of lines with denser traffic flows.

Yes.
If only the masts would stop falling over.

Many of them were installed in the track bed hence the single line in places as it had to be done on the cheap - plus also until fairly recently there was a limit on number of electric units allowed in section.
However I would have thought it was done now they would just pile down until they find solid rock like they did with the masts on the NW scheme around Stephenson's raft bridge.

It was done to remove an island of diesel working and to enable a significant improvement in journey times and frequency to Kings Lynn. It wasn’t done because it was easy (although it was easy!)

Did it actually improve frequency given the electrical limits alluded to above? I do remember being on trains leaving Cambridge full and standing.

 

[InOban]

I suspect that if you wanted to find solid rock below the fens you would be going a long way down...

 

[edwin_m]

Many of them were installed in the track bed hence the single line in places as it had to be done on the cheap - plus also until fairly recently there was a limit on number of electric units allowed in section.
However I would have thought it was done now they would just pile down until they find solid rock like they did with the masts on the NW scheme around Stephenson's raft bridge.

Did it actually improve frequency given the electrical limits alluded to above? I do remember being on trains leaving Cambridge full and standing.

I think on the King's Lynn line they might end up striking oil or creating a new volcano before they found bedrock. Here's one of the more severe consequences: http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/RAIB_Littleport2012.pdf

At 07:19 hrs on Thursday 5 January 2012, the pantograph assembly fell from the roof of a passenger train, breaking two windows on its way to the ground. The train, the 06:51 hrs service from Kings Lynn to London King’s Cross, was travelling at approximately 80 mph (129 km/h), about 2 miles (3.2 km) south of Littleport, in Cambridgeshire, when the accident happened. The driver brought the train to a controlled stop. One passenger received treatment for minor cuts at the site, and two others suffered minor shock but did not require medical treatment. There was extensive damage to the overhead line equipment and minor damage to the train body. The investigation identified that the pantograph head had lost contact with, and risen above, the overhead line, resulting in the pantograph arm hitting a cantilever overhead line support structure. This impact broke the electrical insulators on which the pantograph assembly was mounted, allowing it to fall from the roof. The pantograph head lost contact because the overhead line was deflected from its intended position due to a combination of long term movements of the overhead line support mast foundations and the force of the wind at the time of the accident. The RAIB concluded that maintenance of the overhead line had not been carried out in accordance with Network Rail standards, meaning that the overhead line had not been adjusted to allow for long term foundation movements.

Not sure if it improved frequency but prior to electrification all the Lynn services had a loco change at Cambridge. So if it hadn't been electrified it would probably have become a DMU shuttle from Cambridge.

 

[Bald Rick]

[

Did it actually improve frequency given the electrical limits alluded to above? I do remember being on trains leaving Cambridge full and standing.

Yep, it was one every two hours London - Kings Lynn until electrification - from Liverpool St. Without digging out my old timetables, I can’t remeber how frequent the shuttles were on the branch.

 

[Class 170101]

Not sure if it improved frequency but prior to electrification all the Lynn services had a loco change at Cambridge. So if it hadn't been electrified it would probably have become a DMU shuttle from Cambridge.

These days if it hadn't been done it would probably be operated by bi-mode trains given Grayling's hatred of wires.

 

[WAO]

I admire your optimism.

Crewe - Kidsgrove was several years.

I base it on the RIA Electrification Cost Challenge Report.

The Railway has now learned how to stick a post in the ground, the reported root of its GWEP failures!

WAO

 

[Starmill]

And as NR says "This is one of the busiest stretches of railway in the north". And some traction on this route being diesel-only voyagers is only marginally relevant to the business case: the next generation of passenger traction for cross country routes is almost certainly going to be wholly bimode.

For the foreseeable future up to 1tph passing through Church Fenton will be capable of using the AC.

 

[Jamesrob637]

For the foreseeable future up to 1tph passing through Church Fenton will be capable of using the AC.

There will be some very sweaty passengers if that's the case

I've not seen anything about electrification mentioned on the channel 4 programme yet but I've only watched two so far!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I base it on the RIA Electrification Cost Challenge Report.

The Railway has now learned how to stick a post in the ground, the reported root of its GWEP failures!

WAO

The problem was never about how to stick a post in the ground.