Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[Ploughman]

Your 3rd shot with the digger in the bushes on the right is at Bolton Percy yard
Why has the RRAP been installed 30 metres from the access gate?
There is no gate where the RRAP is.

The gate in view is a recent installation (last 10 years) as the previous gate could not be used by machines due to the gateway being blocked by the signal.

Photo this morning Bolton Percy yard gate.
New RRAP beyond signal.

 

[adamedwards]

Very much hoping Miles Platting Bank goes electric and given the bridges have been raised, surely not too much more to keep going to Stalybridge? Even if just the bay platform to allow EMUs on trains from Victoria freeing up DMUs for elsewhere. I suspect sadly the Great Extension Lead will be deemed more cost effective.

 

[Halish Railway]

Very much hoping Miles Platting Bank goes electric and given the bridges have been raised, surely not too much more to keep going to Stalybridge?

Electrification all of the to Stalybridge is unlikely to happen any time soon given the extensive remodelling of the Stalybridge West throat.

 

[Buspilot]

However is the remodelling of Stalybridge west throat likely to take place any time soon? With the works compound already established at Ashton Moss, it makes more sense to electrify up to Stalybridge, but only wire bay platform 5 in the station, as that will be unafected by the remodeling, whilst the Miles Platting closure is in place.

 

[Ianno87]

Electrification all of the to Stalybridge is unlikely to happen any time soon given the extensive remodelling of the Stalybridge West throat.

However is the remodelling of Stalybridge west throat likely to take place any time soon? With the works compound already established at Ashton Moss, it makes more sense to electrify up to Stalybridge, but only wire bay platform 5 in the station, as that will be unafected by the remodeling, whilst the Miles Platting closure is in place.

Daft question, but Stalybridge was only remodelled less than 10 years ago - why is it being done again?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Daft question, but Stalybridge was only remodelled less than 10 years ago - why is it being done again?

Because it was remodelled to improve the junction speeds towards Guide Bridge, which had become the main route, rather than Victoria.
Once the Ordsall Chord and the diversion of TPE services via Victoria was approved, it needed the priority route to be the other way again.
In the meantime much of the Ashton route has been upgraded/resignalled ready for electrification.

 

[snowball]

I think the decision to reroute TPE via Victoria had already been taken by the time work started on the Stalybridge remodelling, but as somebody said, it was a case of NR's supertanker taking time to turn.

 

[Greybeard33]

I think the decision to reroute TPE via Victoria had already been taken by the time work started on the Stalybridge remodelling, but as somebody said, it was a case of NR's supertanker taking time to turn.

And maybe, now the TRU remodelling is committed, the Integrated Rail Plan will decide to route a cut price NPR line through Stalybridge from Piccadilly, necessitating yet another remodelling...!

 

[Revaulx]

Electrification to Stalybridge from Victoria was originally prioritised as a means of finding somewhere for stoppers from newly electrified lines west of Manchester to terminate, thus freeing up the through platforms at Victoria. Cancellation of Wigan to Bolton reduced the need for this.

It will be really interesting to see whether the Miles Platting bridge work is accompanied by any electrification!

 

[gingertom]

And maybe, now the TRU remodelling is committed, the Integrated Rail Plan will decide to route a cut price NPR line through Stalybridge from Piccadilly, necessitating yet another remodelling...!

you may laugh but if someone at the DaFT thinks it's a good (=cheap) idea......

 

[Glenn1969]

Pretty sure a Rail Civil Engineering article recently said the current funded work (£589m) doesn't inciude electrification and the Huddersfield- Ravensthorpe plans are not funded either.

 

[The Planner]

Daft question, but Stalybridge was only remodelled less than 10 years ago - why is it being done again?

It was raised at the time as to why they chose to do what they did in terms of the faster route.

 

[Hey 3]

Pretty sure a Rail Civil Engineering article recently said the current funded work (£589m) doesn't inciude electrification and the Huddersfield- Ravensthorpe plans are not funded either.

I thought Huddersfield-Westtown(Dewsbury) was nearly ready for approval, if anything that was the section of North Transpennine(Huddersfield Line) electrification(bar Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge) I thought was going to be wired by possibly 2023-2025

 

[Glenn1969]

as yet none of this work is funded apparently

 

[Watershed]

I thought Huddersfield-Westtown(Dewsbury) was nearly ready for approval, if anything that was the section of North Transpennine(Huddersfield Line) electrification(bar Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge) I thought was going to be wired by possibly 2023-2025

There's a lot of confusion that has gone on because of the ways that funding is being released for this project, as well as the phased approach.

Last summer there was a public consultation regarding NR's current proposals for Huddersfield-Westtown. This is one of many stages that needs to be gone through before they can get a Transport and Works Act Order authorising them to perform the road closures, compulsory purchases etc. that are needed to deliver substantial upgrades such as these.

The government is only guaranteeing and releasing funding when projects have gone well past that stage and detailed designs have been undertaken, and they are nearly ready to be delivered.

So there is nothing inherently sinister about the fact that Stalybridge electrification is not yet funded - notwithstanding the fact that in any sensible world it would have been authorised to take place at the same time as the Miles Platting works!

 

[swt_passenger]

Pretty sure a Rail Civil Engineering article recently said the current funded work (£589m) doesn't inciude electrification and the Huddersfield- Ravensthorpe plans are not funded either.

Is this the purpose of the “New Civil Engineer” article mentioned last week, post #3667 and replies?

 

[BrianW]

It was raised at the time as to why they chose to do what they did in terms of the faster route.

A 'general' point that may be relevant here. I would like to think that 'decision-makers' do so on the basis of the evidence and choices before them. Of course they may weight criteria differently from what you or I might. And situations change over time, some as a result of those decisions and others not. I wonder whether the cost of 'the paralysis of analysis' (adding to costs and delays) is greater than the cost of doing work, securing some advantages, and then having another go in the light of 'today's' situation and how we now see tomorrow, possibly. I tend to favour spending hard-won funds when they are there rather than showing an inability to 'get it together' and getting no or reduced funding into the future. I am very cognisant too of the failure of the GW electrification.

 

[Ianno87]

It was raised at the time as to why they chose to do what they did in terms of the faster route.

A 'general' point that may be relevant here. I would like to think that 'decision-makers' do so on the basis of the evidence and choices before them. Of course they may weight criteria differently from what you or I might. And situations change over time, some as a result of those decisions and others not. I wonder whether the cost of 'the paralysis of analysis' (adding to costs and delays) is greater than the cost of doing work, securing some advantages, and then having another go in the light of 'today's' situation and how we now see tomorrow, possibly. I tend to favour spending hard-won funds when they are there rather than showing an inability to 'get it together' and getting no or reduced funding into the future. I am very cognisant too of the failure of the GW electrification.

Interesting. As I do indeed recall that the longer term strategy of TPEs via Victoria was definitely "a thing" at the time of remodelling.

Although presumably the present layout of Stalybridge is still a considerable improvement of the historic layout in terms of speed (e.g. flashing yellows towards Ashton, IIRC), but presumably is still limiting on what could potentially be achieved.

 

[Bald Rick]

Pretty sure a Rail Civil Engineering article recently said the current funded work (£589m) doesn't inciude electrification and the Huddersfield- Ravensthorpe plans are not funded either.

Of course it doesn’t - you can’t fully commit funding until you can be be reasonably sure how much it is going to cost. Until the TWA Order process is well underway it will not be clear what the final scope is. The domestic equivalent would be setting a budget for your house extension before getting planning permission.

A 'general' point that may be relevant here. I would like to think that 'decision-makers' do so on the basis of the evidence and choices before them.

Absolutely, and the key point here is that the decision to proceed is usually taken at least a year before work starts in earnest, and often longer.

 

[matacaster]

And maybe, now the TRU remodelling is committed, the Integrated Rail Plan will decide to route a cut price NPR line through Stalybridge from Piccadilly, necessitating yet another remodelling...!

Would it truly be beyond the whit of NR to design a junction which gave equal and substantial benefit to both Manchester routes? Clearly, the priority route changes every few decades as a result of piccadilly or Victoria areas getting redeveloped (or NPR).

 

[Watershed]

Would it truly be beyond the whit of NR to design a junction which gave equal and substantial benefit to both Manchester routes? Clearly, the priority route changes every few decades as a result of piccadilly or Victoria areas getting redeveloped (or NPR).

Anything is possible - for the right sum. But if all Piccadilly trains stop at Stalybridge it's questionable whether making both routes equally quick is worthwhile.

 

[Bald Rick]

Would it truly be beyond the whit of NR to design a junction which gave equal and substantial benefit to both Manchester routes? Clearly, the priority route changes every few decades as a result of piccadilly or Victoria areas getting redeveloped (or NPR).

Unfortunately the laws of physics intervene. The maximum combined speed of the turnout routes is 75mph. Unless you want to demolish the station and start again.

 

[snowball]

I thought Huddersfield-Westtown(Dewsbury) was nearly ready for approval, if anything that was the section of North Transpennine(Huddersfield Line) electrification(bar Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge) I thought was going to be wired by possibly 2023-2025

As far as I know, Network Rail has not yet submitted an application to the DfT for an order under the Transport & Works Act for the new tracks and bridge works between Huddersfield and Westtown. There have been a couple of rounds of consultation but they were preliminary and the design was not yet firmed up. Maybe the application is about to be submitted. Once it is submitted there will be, as I understand it, an opportunity for formal objections. If there are major objections it could lead to a public inquiry. So I think it's hard to be sure when work can start. As I understand it, there is funding for it, but doubt has been expressed (see #3666) about whether the funding is enough to include electrification, either for Huddersfield-Westtown or Bromley Street to Stalybridge or both.

 

[Class 170101]

Unfortunately the laws of physics intervene. The maximum combined speed of the turnout routes is 75mph. Unless you want to demolish the station and start again.

But how much is the linespeed either side of the junction anyway?

 

[Bald Rick]

But how much is the linespeed either side of the junction anyway?

50 to the east
50 to Guide Bridge
45 to Miles Platting

 

[Class 170101]

50 to the east
50 to Guide Bridge
45 to Miles Platting

Not much point speeding up the junction unless the lines either side are altered, rather the junction itself needs to match speeds on all sides 45/50 junction in all directions.

 

[LittleAH]

Pretty sure a Rail Civil Engineering article recently said the current funded work (£589m) doesn't inciude electrification and the Huddersfield- Ravensthorpe plans are not funded either.

No it's not, and the way its being done I wouldn't expect it to be either. The initial money, announced in July 2020, is for plans to be drawn up etc. My guess is that we'll most likely hear something same time this year about any additional funding. Seem that New Civl Engineer went to NR for a comment and they've given a reply not confirming or denying anything, as you'd expect. Time will tell.

 

[snowball]

Surely £589M covers more than just drawing up plans, even at today's construction industry prices. Does anyone know what exactly is the £589M supposed to include?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Surely £589M covers more than just drawing up plans, even at today's construction industry prices. Does anyone know what exactly is the £589M supposed to include?

I will try and post the original link but I Remember it as 4 tracking Ravensthorpe to Heaton Lodge AND electrification

My vision for fully-electrified Transpennine rail will cost more than £2.9bn budget set by Chris Grayling, says Grant Shapps | Yorkshire Post

The Cabinet Minister said the benefits of £589m in new funding for the 76-mile route connecting Leeds with Manchester, Huddersfield and York will be felt by passengers before the next scheduled General Election in 2024.
The funding announced today will be used to speed up trains and boost reliability on the vital route by electrifying much of the line and doubling the number of tracks from two to four on congested stretches.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not much point speeding up the junction unless the lines either side are altered, rather the junction itself needs to match speeds on all sides 45/50 junction in all directions.

Well, yes, but as I said, the sum of the diverging speeds can be 75mph max, possibly less depending on layout.