Transpennine freight

[matacaster]

The M62 is very busy with pretty much daily crashes and other hold ups. Much of this traffic appears to be HGV's. Much pollution is also created and tine wasted.

What is the volume of Europe / Hull >Leeds, Europe / Hull > Manchester, Europe /Hull > Liverpool and Europe > Ireland HGV traffic?

The reason I ask is to ascertain whether there is scope for a rail compatible ferry service between say Liverpool and Dublin and Hull and Rotterdam? This would feed into the need for electrification and a proper UIC style upgrade for a transpennine rail route.

Opinions please!

 

[MG11]

Do you mean have ferries which are an official connection with TPE services? If so, it sounds like a nice idea but it won't sit well with passengers travelling say from Liverpool to Newcastle if the train they are on is delayed on departure for a late inbound ferry. Perhaps a skeleton of services, outside commuter times could be official connections, i.e. early morning or late evening. I think TPE would need to extend their catering operating times though, to give them a competitive edge over other methods of transport.

 

[snowball]

I would imagine only a very small proportion of freight on the M62 is coast to coast.

Indeed the motorway is much less busy towards its east end than the rest.

 

[edwin_m]

The economics of multimodal freight effectively say that if a truck can do the out and back within a driver's shift, the freight will go on the truck. Hence there is no intermodal freight to speak of between Northern ports and Northern destinations, or between ports in the Southeast and cities in the Southeast, the main market being either Felixstowe or Southampton to the Midlands and beyond. While that may shift at the margins, a lot has to change to make rail a significant player in journeys of under four hours or so.

 

[Ploughman]

There has been much talk on this on another thread.
I think Wavertree Lad is one name and the subject may be Peel ports
but cannot recall fully.

 

[furnessvale]

The M62 is very busy with pretty much daily crashes and other hold ups. Much of this traffic appears to be HGV's. Much pollution is also created and tine wasted.

What is the volume of Europe / Hull >Leeds, Europe / Hull > Manchester, Europe /Hull > Liverpool and Europe > Ireland HGV traffic?

The reason I ask is to ascertain whether there is scope for a rail compatible ferry service between say Liverpool and Dublin and Hull and Rotterdam? This would feed into the need for electrification and a proper UIC style upgrade for a transpennine rail route.

Opinions please!

If you are referring to train ferries it is a complete non starter.
Ireland has a different track gauge. Not only would you be ferrying a wagon across the Irish Sea, but having done that you would immediately have to swap the gauge. I stand to be corrected but I know of no location in the world that attempts to do that.
If however you are talking containers, there is a possibility that a cross UK service could work, and various organisations have ideas in that direction.

 

[30907]

If you are referring to train ferries it is a complete non starter.
Ireland has a different track gauge. Not only would you be ferrying a wagon across the Irish Sea, but having done that you would immediately have to swap the gauge. I stand to be corrected but I know of no location in the world that attempts to do that.
If however you are talking containers, there is a possibility that a cross UK service could work, and various organisations have ideas in that direction.

My impression is that most freight through Hull is RoRo or on trailers - the ABP website refers to "more than 100,000 teu pa" but Felixstowe claims over 37million. That puts it into context, I am afraid.

 

[furnessvale]

My impression is that most freight through Hull is RoRo or on trailers - the ABP website refers to "more than 100,000 teu pa" but Felixstowe claims over 37million. That puts it into context, I am afraid.

True. When I mention containers I am aware of the current low numbers. It needs a sea change in attitudes to freight to convert shippers away from Ro-Ro and onto Lo-Lo. I doubt that can be achieved given current levels of subsidy to road haulage.

 

[AndrewE]

If you are referring to train ferries it is a complete non starter.
Ireland has a different track gauge. Not only would you be ferrying a wagon across the Irish Sea, but having done that you would immediately have to swap the gauge. I stand to be corrected but I know of no location in the world that attempts to do that.

You haven't heard of Transfesa vans then, that bring Spanish produce to the rest of Europe (and the Talgo passenger trains that did the same thing by moving the wheels on the axles at the Spanish border.) See:
https://www.transfesa.com/rail-spai...ices/transport_distribution/rail_freight.html

the company "knows no borders”. Transfesa has the largest fleet of wagons with interchangeable axles in Europe, allowing it to manage track gauge changes between the Iberian Peninsula and the rest of Europe. What is more, the company has its own fleet of 4,500 wagons (75% of the fleet can be used for international traffic)

Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_gauge) also says

As the train passes through the gauge changer, the wheels are unlocked, moved closer together, or further apart, and are then re-locked. Installed variable gauge systems exist within the internal network of Spain, and are installed on international links between Spain/France (Spanish train), Sweden/Finland (Swedish train), Poland/Lithuania (Polish train) and Poland/Ukraine (Polish train).

 

[furnessvale]

You haven't heard of Transfesa vans then, that bring Spanish produce to the rest of Europe (and the Talgo passenger trains that did the same thing by moving the wheels on the axles at the Spanish border.) See:
https://www.transfesa.com/rail-spai...ices/transport_distribution/rail_freight.html

Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_gauge) also says

YES, I have heard of Transfesa, and others.

I was referring to gauge changing AND in the same move, putting the wagons on a train ferry. The costs go through the roof.

The same problem stops any economical attempt to build a rail tunnel from the UK to Ireland.

 

[AndrewE]

If the traffic flow was such that the economies of rail justified it I am sure it could be done: Standard gauge ship and linkspan, gauge change shed, broad gauge network. Job done.
It may be that carbon emissions/penalties of road could drive more traffic to rail, but I would expect it to be dealt with by more rail transport of containers or swap bodies which I agree would probably be a far more economical solution.

 

[randyrippley]

Non starter really. Take Heysham, something like seven sailings to Northern Island each day mainly carrying unaccompanied trailers. These are driven to Heysham, parked and the trailers then allocated and moved to the correct sailing with tractors. Stuff coming off the ship is parked and then collected as needed. The ships are RORO not container.

If you used rail to bring the stuff in, then you'd need container ships and handling gear, or else you'd need dedicated multimodal dual gauge trailers. You'd also need a lot of space to marshall the trains - stuff thats not there. Finally, putting rails to the linkspans without losing most of the parking space would be impossible.
Might be more possible at Fleetwood, but that would mean reinstating the line and getting the linkspan back into service

 

[edwin_m]

If a suitable track and hardstanding could be provided within each port boundary then containers could be lifted onto "internal" (not road legal) road trailers and shunted on and off a conventional ro-ro ferry for a similar transfer at the other end.