Transpennine Freight Route Feedback

[6Gman]

There looks to be some old tunnels near Kirkdale that can be used.

But where do they go?

I don't believe they go to the docks.

Are they just the old Fast Line tunnels? (In which case they go nowhere other than where the existing tunnels go...)

 

[Bevan Price]

But where do they go?

I don't believe they go to the docks.

Are they just the old Fast Line tunnels? (In which case they go nowhere other than where the existing tunnels go...)

There are tunnels on the disused tracks on the east side of the line between Kirkdale & Walton Jn.
The other tunnels are at a lower level, on the branch from Edge Hill (ex-LNWR), and have never had a connection to the ex-L&Y line at Kirkdale.
There was a third tunnel, to the east of both the above lines, and at an even lower level, on the long-closed ex-CLC freight line to Huskisson Goods Depot (which was near Sandhills Station)

See this RCH Junction Diagram:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Liverpool_RJD_42.jpg

The easiest way to the docks from the Ormskirk line was to use the line from Aintree to North Mersey Dock (long closed), where there were connections to the docks railway system.

 

[6Gman]

There are tunnels on the disused tracks on the east side of the line between Kirkdale & Walton Jn.
The other tunnels are at a lower level, on the branch from Edge Hill (ex-LNWR), and have never had a connection to the ex-L&Y line at Kirkdale.
There was a third tunnel, to the east of both the above lines, and at an even lower level, on the long-closed ex-CLC freight line to Huskisson Goods Depot (which was near Sandhills Station)

See this RCH Junction Diagram:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Liverpool_RJD_42.jpg

The easiest way to the docks from the Ormskirk line was to use the line from Aintree to North Mersey Dock (long closed), where there were connections to the docks railway system.

Thank you for that. I couldn't find my RCH book but I thought that was the situation. Basically the OP is mistaken in thinking there are any relevant old tunnels in the Kirkdale area?

So reopening the North Mersey Branch is the only practical option (and even that raises problems in the Bootle Jn area).

 

[Ploughman]

Would any of the 4 track section of formation between Aintree and Old Roan stn be available for use?
2 track currently with the Ormskirk service but the old CLC ran alongside.

 

[Legolash2o]

I was hoping to be able to connect an old tunnel that went near Kirkdale to the existing tunnel that goes to Bootle Jn. Dang!

Worst case scenario is having W10 to Preston and then use the WCML, but I was hoping to avoid already busy lines (Preston 1 on the link on OP).

 

[6Gman]

Would any of the 4 track section of formation between Aintree and Old Roan stn be available for use?
2 track currently with the Ormskirk service but the old CLC ran alongside.

I think you could fit a freight line (possibly two) alongside though you'd need new bridges over Heysham Road and the canal. But why bother? The problem isn't capacity between Aintree and Old Roan (if you can't fit a few freights between 4 stoppers an hour you're probably not cut out for timetable planning). The problem is that there's no obvious route into the Docks! To get there you'd need to cross the Southport line at Bootle Junction - which again should be ok-ish - but then reverse somewhere on the Bootle Branch. Which, given gradients and tunnels, might not be easy.

 

[Ploughman]

I think you could fit a freight line (possibly two) alongside though you'd need new bridges over Heysham Road and the canal. But why bother? The problem isn't capacity between Aintree and Old Roan (if you can't fit a few freights between 4 stoppers an hour you're probably not cut out for timetable planning). The problem is that there's no obvious route into the Docks! To get there you'd need to cross the Southport line at Bootle Junction - which again should be ok-ish - but then reverse somewhere on the Bootle Branch. Which, given gradients and tunnels, might not be easy.

I was allowing for the earlier comment about no use of Merseyrail tracks by any other traffic.

 

[6Gman]

I was allowing for the earlier comment about no use of Merseyrail tracks by any other traffic.

Which didn't seem to have much substance ...

And you'd still have an issue between Old Roan and Ormskirk.

Just to review this whole idea:

1. It needs a new curve and two junctions at Lostock Hall.
2. It would almost certainly need redoubling of Farington to Ormskirk (about 13 miles).
3. It would need the reopening of the North Mersey Branch (around 4 miles?) and some arrangement for reversal on the Bootle Branch OR the creation of an entirely new railway between Kirkdale and the Bootle Branch.

The main current traffic would appear to be the Drax biomass - BUT I suspect they would find Copy Pit an uneconomic restriction on trailing weight.

 

[Bevan Price]

Thank you for that. I couldn't find my RCH book but I thought that was the situation. Basically the OP is mistaken in thinking there are any relevant old tunnels in the Kirkdale area?

So reopening the North Mersey Branch is the only practical option (and even that raises problems in the Bootle Jn area).

No problems at Bootle Jn. The original North Branch split into separate portions after passing over the Southport line. Turn left for Bootle Jn and connection to the Southport line (still in situ, but long disused; continue straight ahesd for direct line to North Mersey Dock, which was quite close to Alexandra Dock (on the branch from Edge Hill), but I think that the only link between them involved use of the MDHB** system. I am unsure what remains of the trackbed of that direct line into North Mersey Dock, so restoration might be very expensive.
.
(** MHDB = Mersey Docks & Harbour Board)

 

[6Gman]

No problems at Bootle Jn. The original North Branch split into separate portions after passing over the Southport line. Turn left for Bootle Jn and connection to the Southport line (still in situ, but long disused; continue straight ahesd for direct line to North Mersey Dock, which was quite close to Alexandra Dock (on the branch from Edge Hill), but I think that the only link between them involved used of the MDHB** system. I am unsure what remains of the trackbed of that direct line into North Mersey Dock, so restoration might be very expensive.
.
(** MHDB = Mersey Docks & Harbour Board)

Ah, thank you for that. So a bit of new build would give direct access? (Assuming the route is still viable.)

EDIT: A look at an old map does indeed confirm a direct line to North Mersey Dock. Unfortunately they seem to have built a housing estate on it! (If I'm looking at it correctly.)

 

[Legolash2o]

It might be easier to just make it go to Preston and then use WCML from there.

 

[6Gman]

It might be easier to just make it go to Preston and then use WCML from there.

Yes, but that would be boring!

 

[Legolash2o]

Yeah true, I'm drawing up an alternative route now that I have extra data on movements.