Transpennine Freight Route Feedback

[Legolash2o]

I've been looking into options for a W10/W12 gauge cleared route through the Transpennines (Calder).

The route I'm thinking is from Doncaster -> Wakefield -> Mirfield -> Sowerby Bridge -> Lostock Hall Junction.

A new junction would have to be created between Lostock Hall and line to Ormskirk. Both tracks at Ormskirk would have to be re-connected and finally an old tunnel near Bootle Jn would have to be re-instated.

Does anyone see any issues with this idea? It's option Preston 2 on the link below.
https://railmap.azurewebsites.net/Public/Upgrade (7am to 9pm only)

Thanks.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Isnt it quite difficult for heavily loaded freight trains to get over copy pit?

 

[Clip]

Is there demand for such a route between the two points on each coast?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I love it - especially if electrified throughout. Loads of little infills such as Nelson - Colne etc would get electrified passenger services too. Also, reinstate the curves at Burscough Junction and you can have Preston etc- Southport passenger services. I love it.

 

[furnessvale]

Your plans stands no chance as Merseyside will not allow any new freight over lines they now have exclusively for passenger use.

 

[Legolash2o]

Isnt it quite difficult for heavily loaded freight trains to get over copy pit?

I will check the trailing weights later as I have another map with them on.

Your plans stands no chance as Merseyside will not allow any new freight over lines they now have exclusively for passenger use.

That's a shame, the alternative is Preston 1.

I love it - especially if electrified throughout. Loads of little infills such as Nelson - Colne etc would get electrified passenger services too. Also, reinstate the curves at Burscough Junction and you can have Preto etc- Southport passenger services. I love it.

Thanks. I've tried to avoid busy passenger routes including Leeds Whitehal Jn and Manchester Victoria. I couldn't avoid Wakefield though! I'm assuming the Burscough Jn you mentioned was the one near Lostock?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I'm assuming the Burscough Jn you mentioned was the one near Lostock?

No, going south from Preston Station - the line goes to Ormskirk and also Blackburn and that junction needs work regardless. Continue south going to Ormskirk and before there you come to Burscough. If you reinstated the curves there you could run a Preston (or Blackpool South or BPL North or Colne etc) -Southport passenger service.

 

[Ianno87]

Your plans stands no chance as Merseyside will not allow any new freight over lines they now have exclusively for passenger use.

Not Merseyrail or Merseytravel's perogative to dictate who can and can't access the Network Rail network if the track capability and timetable capacity is there. It's for Network Rail and the ORR to determine.

Merseyrail/travel would no doubt be concerned about it, but they can't block it (unless they had some very convincing evidence about why it couldn't work)

 

[chorleyjeff]

Your plans stands no chance as Merseyside will not allow any new freight over lines they now have exclusively for passenger use.

Is there no strategic overview and could provision not be made when the franchise is next awarded ?

 

[chorleyjeff]

I've been looking into options for a W10/W12 gauge cleared route through the Transpennines (Calder).

The route I'm thinking is from Doncaster -> Wakefield -> Mirfield -> Sowerby Bridge -> Lostock Junction.

A new junction would have to be created between Lostock Hall and line to Ormskirk. Both tracks at Ormskirk would have to be re-connected and finally an old tunnel near Bootle Jn would have to be re-instated.

Does anyone see any issues with this idea? It's option Preston 2 on the link below.
https://railmap.azurewebsites.net/Public/Upgrade

Thanks.
View attachment 58527

A pedant point. Lostock Junction is near Bolton. I think you are referring to Lostock Hall where a short stretch of former line would be need to be reinstated and connected by two junctions to existing lines.

 

[Legolash2o]

No, going south from Preston Station - the line goes to Ormskirk and also Blackburn and that junction needs work regardless. Continue south going to Ormskirk and before there you come to Burscough. If you reinstated the curves there you could run a Preston (or Blackpool South or BPL North or Colne etc) -Southport passenger service.

Ah yes, found it!

Not Merseyrail or Merseytravel's perogative to dictate who can and can't access the Network Rail network if the track capability and timetable capacity is there. It's for Network Rail and the ORR to determine.

Merseyrail/travel would no doubt be concerned about it, but they can't block it (unless they had some very convincing evidence about why it couldn't work)

Well according to level crossing data, there's only 34 trains per day on the Ormskirk route, compared to Hull/Gilberdyke (146), Manchester Ordsall Lane Jn to Parkside Jn (174) and other places with 250+. Improving it for freight could include double-tracking enable more passenger capacity and new services from Liverpool to Preston, Edinburgh or a alternative Manchester Victoria route.

 

[Legolash2o]

A pedant point. Lostock Junction is near Bolton. I think you are referring to Lostock Hall where a short stretch of former line would be need to be reinstated and connected by two junctions to existing lines.

Fixed it, thanks.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I drew in by hand the curves I meant

 

[Legolash2o]

View attachment 58549 I drew in by hand the curves I meant

That's cool. Thanks for the info.

Isnt it quite difficult for heavily loaded freight trains to get over copy pit?

Copy Pit (East to West) allows a class 66H to have a trailing weight of 3510 tonnes.


West to East between Preston to Todmorden only allows 2230 tonnes.


Not sure if these are an issue for inter-modal freight such as high-cube?

 

[furnessvale]

Not Merseyrail or Merseytravel's perogative to dictate who can and can't access the Network Rail network if the track capability and timetable capacity is there. It's for Network Rail and the ORR to determine.

Merseyrail/travel would no doubt be concerned about it, but they can't block it (unless they had some very convincing evidence about why it couldn't work)

Technically correct but they haven't spent years developing a "Merseyside Metro", by severing connections like Ormskirk and Kirkby, to have it breached by freights without a major fight.

 

[Legolash2o]

So they purposely broke up Ormskirk? That seems like backward thinking! Surely it reduces options for passengers and a loss of profits?

I bet a TOC would earn more having a Preston to Liverpool via Ormskirk rather than Preston to Ormskirk then another train from Ormskirk to Liverpool. Why have two trains? What if one train breaks down or fails to even turn up?

I'm sure I read once that the Ormskirk services get cancelled frequently as well.

 

[yorkie]

So they purposely broke up Ormskirk? That seems like backward thinking! Surely it reduces options for passengers and a loss of profits?

More like a reduction in costs/losses! See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ended-at-these-locations.175504/#post-3793621 in the History & Nostalgia section

I bet a TOC would earn more ...

You mean have reduced losses. Almost all services on these sorts of lines require subsidy.

 

[furnessvale]

So they purposely broke up Ormskirk? That seems like backward thinking! Surely it reduces options for passengers and a loss of profits?

I bet a TOC would earn more having a Preston to Liverpool via Ormskirk rather than Preston to Ormskirk then another train from Ormskirk to Liverpool. Why have two trains? What if one train breaks down or fails to even turn up?

I'm sure I read once that the Ormskirk services get cancelled frequently as well.

And delays from Preston would impact on Liverpool. Additionally, what sort of train would be capable of working through? (We are talking a few years ago, pre bi mode ideas).

 

[Legolash2o]

In that case you could reconnect the lines but keep the services running the same way that they are. The only difference would be that freight trains will be able to go through (probably worth double-tracking).

 

[furnessvale]

In that case you could reconnect the lines but keep the services running the same way that they are. The only difference would be that freight trains will be able to go through (probably worth double-tracking).

And have freights impacting on the electrics? I don't think so.

By the way, I am very pro freight, I am simply talking from a Merseyside perspective.

 

[Legolash2o]

Maybe. Double-tracking would improve things but also adding a few loops or even four-tracking some areas.

Sure, passenger trains are important but so are the jobs that come with growth and opportunities. My main concern is that 60%+ of containers, according to statistics and some say even higher, are high-cube. My maps/data show that the busiest freight movements are on routes that are at least W10. I just don't want the Transpennine to miss out!

At the end of the day that line can be kept at passenger priority.

 

[furnessvale]

My main concern is that 60%+ of containers, according to statistics and some say even higher, are high-cube. My maps/data show that the busiest freight movements are on routes that are at least W10. I just don't want the Transpennine to miss out!

Agreed. The main reason the Widnes to Teesport service for P&O Ferrymasters failed was the convoluted route it had to take to find a suitable loading gauge.

 

[30907]

Would it be simpler to go via Edge Hill - Wigan NW - Lostock Hall? I know there would be pathing issues on the WCML, but the various sections of quadruple track (including at Huyton) would be an asset.

 

[6Gman]

I've been looking into options for a W10/W12 gauge cleared route through the Transpennines (Calder).

The route I'm thinking is from Doncaster -> Wakefield -> Mirfield -> Sowerby Bridge -> Lostock Hall Junction.

A new junction would have to be created between Lostock Hall and line to Ormskirk. Both tracks at Ormskirk would have to be re-connected and finally an old tunnel near Bootle Jn would have to be re-instated.

Does anyone see any issues with this idea? It's option Preston 2 on the link below.
https://railmap.azurewebsites.net/Public/Upgrade (7am to 9pm only)

Thanks.
View attachment 58527

Just to be clear what you're suggesting ...

From Blackburn it would be a curve (which used to exist) at Lostock Hall to reach Ormskirk then branch off at Aintree? This takes you to Bootle Junction, but where exactly are you trying to reach?

 

[Legolash2o]

Would it be simpler to go via Edge Hill - Wigan NW - Lostock Hall? I know there would be pathing issues on the WCML, but the various sections of quadruple track (including at Huyton) would be an asset.

I'll have a look but I was trying to avoid heavily used passenger stations and the WCML.

Just to be clear what you're suggesting ...

From Blackburn it would be a curve (which used to exist) at Lostock Hall to reach Ormskirk then branch off at Aintree? This takes you to Bootle Junction, but where exactly are you trying to reach?

Not Aintree, but some tunnels at Kirkdale. Trying to reach the port.

 

[6Gman]

I'll have a look but I was trying to avoid heavily used passenger stations and the WCML.


Not Aintree, but some tunnels at Kirkdale. Trying to reach the port.

Trouble with going as far as Kirkdale is that you then have to fit it across both Ormskirk and Kirkby services. Plus I can't visualise how you get from Kirkdale to the Docks.

 

[coppercapped]

What market is this new route trying to satisfy?

 

[Bevan Price]

Trouble with going as far as Kirkdale is that you then have to fit it across both Ormskirk and Kirkby services. Plus I can't visualise how you get from Kirkdale to the Docks.

You can't get easily from Kirkdale to the docks. You would need to build a new, rather steep connection down to the line from Edge Hill to Bootle (LBT)/Seaforth, which passes beneath the sidings at Kirkdale Depot..

 

[swt_passenger]

What market is this new route trying to satisfy?

Is it providing feedback - or asking for feedback? Title not clear really...

 

[Legolash2o]

What market is this new route trying to satisfy?

East-West freight movements (high-cube).

Trouble with going as far as Kirkdale is that you then have to fit it across both Ormskirk and Kirkby services. Plus I can't visualise how you get from Kirkdale to the Docks.

You can't get easily from Kirkdale to the docks. You would need to build a new, rather steep connection down to the line from Edge Hill to Bootle (LBT)/Seaforth, which passes beneath the sidings at Kirkdale Depot..

There looks to be some old tunnels near Kirkdale that can be used.

Is it providing feedback - or asking for feedback? Title not clear really...

Asking for feedback.