Transpennine Express Irregularity Report

[mmelvin17]

I got an irregularity report on the train today for 2 things

- The ticket I had was for an earlier train
- My railcard had expired

There were reasons why I did this which I know aren’t relevant unless this goes to court so I won’t bother explaining. I was just wandering though for these 2 offences am I likely to be double fined or potentially be prosecuted?

For context, I have booked tickets on Trainline before with my expired railcard however these were with different operators and with small insignificant amount of money (like less than £5 journeys). I’ve also never been fined on national rail services before.

 

[Elecman]

Transpennine will audit your online ticketing history and will note all those other journeys you made after your Railcard expired irrespective of whichever other train company you traveled with.
They will write to you asking for your side of the offences and as long as you cooperate with them they are most likely to offer you an Out of Court Settlement based on the full price Anytime single ticket for each journey that had invalid tickets due to expired railcard (2 singles for each return journey ) with no allowance for anything you have already paid.

if you don’t cooperate they will prosecute you for the offence committed today but are likely to ask the court for recompense for all the other invalid tickets, you will then also be fined and have Victim surcharge added and of course you will have a criminal record

 

[WesternLancer]

I got an irregularity report on the train today for 2 things

- The ticket I had was for an earlier train
- My railcard had expired

There were reasons why I did this which I know aren’t relevant unless this goes to court so I won’t bother explaining. I was just wandering though for these 2 offences am I likely to be double fined or potentially be prosecuted?

For context, I have booked tickets on Trainline before with my expired railcard however these were with different operators and with small insignificant amount of money (like less than £5 journeys). I’ve also never been fined on national rail services before.

If you were not fined on the spot with a Penalty Fare I’m afraid you are now under investigation. If you don’t engage with that when they contact you it will escalate automatically to court prosecution.

So you need to carefully check post, email and spam for communication from the railway and it is VITAL you reply to that.

When you hear from them get advice from here on how to reply.

In the meantime have a read of a few other threads to get the idea of what will most likely happen.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Transpennine will audit your online ticketing history and will note all those other journeys you made after your Railcard expired irrespective of whichever other train company you traveled with.
They will write to you asking for your side of the offences and as long as you cooperate with them they are most likely to offer you an Out of Court Settlement based on the full price Anytime single ticket for each journey that had invalid tickets due to expired railcard (2 singles for each return journey ) with no allowance for anything you have already paid.

if you don’t cooperate they will prosecute you for the offence committed today but are likely to ask the court for recompense for all the other invalid tickets, you will then also be fined and have Victim surcharge added and of course you will have a criminal record

Can they seek recompense when they haven't prosecuted for those offences?

 

[mmelvin17]

Can they seek recompense when they haven't prosecuted for those offences?

There prosecuting me for them now I guess

 

[6Gman]

There prosecuting me for them now I guess

If you co-operate they are quite likely to agree an out of court settlement.

 

[WesternLancer]

Can they seek recompense when they haven't prosecuted for those offences?

Possibly not. But the objective should be to avoid any prosecution at all. That means paying recompense for other occasions as part of any out of court settlement offer (unless a calculated decision is taken that court fine and criminal record is cheaper and a price worth paying - but this seems unlikely to me).

 

[AlterEgo]

Can they seek recompense when they haven't prosecuted for those offences?

In court? Yes, by asking the accused if they would like other offences to be taken into consideration.

 

[mmelvin17]

Possibly not. But the objective should be to avoid any prosecution at all. That means paying recompense for other occasions as part of any out of court settlement offer (unless a calculated decision is taken that court fine and criminal record is cheaper and a price worth paying - but this seems unlikely to me).

Transpennine will audit your online ticketing history and will note all those other journeys you made after your Railcard expired irrespective of whichever other train company you traveled with.
They will write to you asking for your side of the offences and as long as you cooperate with them they are most likely to offer you an Out of Court Settlement based on the full price Anytime single ticket for each journey that had invalid tickets due to expired railcard (2 singles for each return journey ) with no allowance for anything you have already paid.

if you don’t cooperate they will prosecute you for the offence committed today but are likely to ask the court for recompense for all the other invalid tickets, you will then also be fined and have Victim surcharge added and of course you will have a criminal record

Just out of curiosity, why would Transpennine operators care about if I used an expired railcard on a different operator. I don’t mind paying the fine but just genuinely interested

 

[6Gman]

Just out of curiosity, why would Transpennine operators care about if I used an expired railcard on a different operator. I don’t mind paying the fine but just genuinely interested

Mutual support. If TPE follow up on cases involving (say) Northern, then they do the same.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just out of curiosity, why would Transpennine operators care about if I used an expired railcard on a different operator. I don’t mind paying the fine but just genuinely interested

All train companies can take on cases involving any National Rail operator.

 

[WesternLancer]

Just out of curiosity, why would Transpennine operators care about if I used an expired railcard on a different operator. I don’t mind paying the fine but just genuinely interested

Because in reality all the money from fares ends up going back to the same place. Which is the government. The government then subsidises the whole passenger railway system overall as the fares don’t cover the running costs (a basic brief answer).

 

[Haywain]

Just out of curiosity, why would Transpennine operators care about if I used an expired railcard on a different operator. I don’t mind paying the fine but just genuinely interested

The alternative might be you having to deal with multiple companies.

 

[mmelvin17]

Transpennine will audit your online ticketing history and will note all those other journeys you made after your Railcard expired irrespective of whichever other train company you traveled with.
They will write to you asking for your side of the offences and as long as you cooperate with them they are most likely to offer you an Out of Court Settlement based on the full price Anytime single ticket for each journey that had invalid tickets due to expired railcard (2 singles for each return journey ) with no allowance for anything you have already paid.

if you don’t cooperate they will prosecute you for the offence committed today but are likely to ask the court for recompense for all the other invalid tickets, you will then also be fined and have Victim surcharge added and of course you will have a criminal record

Is there a way to check what journeys I applied a railcard on since it expired? Me and my mum are trying to go through the journeys I made since my card expired (sometimes she buys them on her account and sends them over) but it’s not clear on the booking history whether we applied a railcard or not. To be fair I guess it’s not important we’ll find out soon anyway but was just asking so we can get clarity

 

[WesternLancer]

Is there a way to check what journeys I applied a railcard on since it expired? Me and my mum are trying to go through the journeys I made since my card expired (sometimes she buys them on her account and sends them over) but it’s not clear on the booking history whether we applied a railcard or not. To be fair I guess it’s not important we’ll find out soon anyway but was just asking so we can get clarity

If you state the journey and what you paid people here will be able to tell you what the fare is with or without railcard I suspect. Using this uk fares database. Or you could try using it yourself if you have an idea what sort of ticket you may have bought.

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

 

[mmelvin17]

If you state the journey and what you paid people here will be able to tell you what the fare is with or without railcard I suspect. Using this uk fares database. Or you could try using it yourself if you have an idea what sort of ticket you may have bought.

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

Perfect thanks very much!

 

[AlterEgo]

There is no need to go over ones bought by your mum on her account, they will almost certainly not find those anyway.

 

[mmelvin17]

There is no need to go over ones bought by your mum on her account, they will almost certainly not find those anyway.

Unfortunately for me the ticket the train operator took a photo of (the one which was the train at the wrong time) was also sent by my mum. So they will definitely be looking into her account as well as my own.

 

[Hadders]

Unfortunately for me the ticket the train operator took a photo of (the one which was the train at the wrong time) was also sent by my mum. So they will definitely be looking into her account as well as my own.

In that case the train company should be able to see it was purchased by your mum. There's nothing wrong with buying a ticket for someone else. I think the wording on TPE's letter will be critical here about what they ask you. When the letter arrives, post a copy in this thread and we can assist in how to reply.

 

[mmelvin17]

In that case the train company should be able to see it was purchased by your mum. There's nothing wrong with buying a ticket for someone else. I think the wording on TPE's letter will be critical here about what they ask you. When the letter arrives, post a copy in this thread and we can assist in how to reply.

I have made 2 train journeys with my expired railcard, both sent from my Mum. The real problem is if my mum remembered to take this railcard off when booking her trains, which they will see on her account. I assume she remembered but it’s a horrible thought that’s just hit me and wouldn’t be the first time she’s messed up with technology, I’ll check with her in the morning.

 

[John R]

I have made 2 train journeys with my expired railcard, both sent from my Mum. The real problem is if my mum remembered to take this railcard off when booking her trains, which they will see on her account. I assume she remembered but it’s a horrible thought that’s just hit me and wouldn’t be the first time she’s messed up with technology, I’ll check with her in the morning.

Probably best if you buy them in future then, to avoid any similar problems. If she wants to pay then just get her to transfer the money to you instead.

 

[mmelvin17]

Hi, sorry I've no idea how these images are going to format but I did some research and it turned out one of the 2 journeys I made I may not have used my expired railcard after all. From this trip I made from London to Manchester (with a change at Crewe), I've been able to match up advance ticket prices without discounts to the exact cost I paid. Does this mean I definitely didn't apply my railcard? Also can someone let me know if I need to scribble out some of this info.

 

[Vexed]

If you had a railcard applied it would show under ADULT where the - is in your screenshots. I've attached an example with a railcard. TPE will be able to see that no railcard was applied so should ignore these tickets.

Also can someone let me know if I need to scribble out some of this info.

You might want to consider hiding the reference numbers

 

[mmelvin17]

Thanks, this was very helpful. Gone through everything and looks like the only time I didn't have a valid railcard when I should've had one was on the day I was reported. There is one thing though, looks like my mum applied a senior railcard ticket to a journey (for what I assume was for my Grandmother) since my railcard expiry date. Are TPE likely to pursue this further and if they do is it worth fighting. Like obviously if they charged me for that journey I'd want to explain to them that it was for my Grandma but does run the risk of a prosecution?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2024 ==

Or will I just have to send them proof that my Grandma owns a senior railcard.

 

[30907]

Thanks, this was very helpful. Gone through everything and looks like the only time I didn't have a valid railcard when I should've had one was on the day I was reported. There is one thing though, looks like my mum applied a senior railcard ticket to a journey (for what I assume was for my Grandmother) since my railcard expiry date. Are TPE likely to pursue this further and if they do is it worth fighting. Like obviously if they charged me for that journey I'd want to explain to them that it was for my Grandma but does run the risk of a prosecution?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2024 ==

Or will I just have to send them proof that my Grandma owns a senior railcard.

That's good news.
I can't see that they have a valid reason for challenging you about the Senior Railcard fare, but if they should contact your mother then she has the defence you suggest. IMO they have no grounds for investigating her anyway.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks, this was very helpful. Gone through everything and looks like the only time I didn't have a valid railcard when I should've had one was on the day I was reported. There is one thing though, looks like my mum applied a senior railcard ticket to a journey (for what I assume was for my Grandmother) since my railcard expiry date. Are TPE likely to pursue this further and if they do is it worth fighting. Like obviously if they charged me for that journey I'd want to explain to them that it was for my Grandma but does run the risk of a prosecution?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2024 ==

Or will I just have to send them proof that my Grandma owns a senior railcard.

It’s unlikely it would come up but if it did sending proof of your grandma’s senior railcard would suffice I’d think.

Once you start engaging with them the railway usually acts fairly unless they think people are lying to them.

 

[mmelvin17]

Hi guys, just an update. It’s now gone past the 21 days when they said they’d write to me and nothing is here yet. Is this something to get worried about?

 

[Hadders]

Hi guys, just an update. It’s now gone past the 21 days when they said they’d write to me and nothing is here yet. Is this something to get worried about?

Nothing to worry about at this stage. The teams who deal with these sort of thiings are small and have lots of cases to deal with. As long as you gave your correct contact details then they will contact you in due course.

 

[mmelvin17]

Ok, so an update TPE sent their letter. I’ve attached it below here. Just to clear things up I was on the the wrong train with my ticket (wrong time) AND my railcard was also out of date. It’s not really clear if the letter is charging me for both of these offences or just the railcard one, and the ticket inspector wasn’t clear about it as well. Should I just admit to both in the statement back to them?

 

[WesternLancer]

Ok, so an update TPE sent their letter. I’ve attached it below here. Just to clear things up I was on the the wrong train with my ticket (wrong time) AND my railcard was also out of date. It’s not really clear if the letter is charging me for both of these offences or just the railcard one, and the ticket inspector wasn’t clear about it as well. Should I just admit to both in the statement back to them?

Thanks for the update.

It looks like they are asking you about the Railcard and have probably forgotten to ask you about being on the wrong train for your time specific ticket.

My advice would be to reply in general terms (so as to avoid drawing their attention to both matters but being sure not to lie) - eg you could say something in your reply like:

'I apologise for not having the correct ticket for my travel on xxx' then go on to say that you 'have learned from this mistake, and have also renewed your Railcard' (assuming you have - if not do so if you can / are eligible for one, just so you can say this).

The important thing to stress and get over to them is that this was an error and that 'in no way did you intentionally seek to evade correctly paying for your journey' (you don't really need to go into the reasons for the error) and then end up asking them if they will 'kindly allow you settle the matter without the need for court action, by allowing you to pay for any fare(s) owed'.

Put a draft of your response here and people will be able to check it for you to help get it as good as it can be.