Transmanche services

[londonteacher]

A previous idea was mooted for Transmanche services (between Kent and the Calais region). Could this work as a cheaper alternative to the Eurostar? Calling at for example St Pancras, Stratford International, Ebbsfleet, Ashford, Canterbury, Folkestone and Calais-Frethun (for TGV services). Onboard security checks (possibly), except for those boarding at stations with facilities already. Possible operated by trains similar to the new Eurostar but shorter.

 

[Clip]

Which round are you sending it from Canterbury then as the only direction from there from Ashford direction is round by deal and that's just silly

 

[Bald Rick]

A previous idea was mooted for Transmanche services (between Kent and the Calais region). Could this work as a cheaper alternative to the Eurostar? Calling at for example St Pancras, Stratford International, Ebbsfleet, Ashford, Canterbury, Folkestone and Calais-Frethun (for TGV services). Onboard security checks (possibly), except for those boarding at stations with facilities already. Possible operated by trains similar to the new Eurostar but shorter.

Firstly, how do you get from Ashford - Canterbury - Folkestone - Eurotunnel without a very long trip round Kent?

Secondly, if onboard security checks were possible, Eurostar would be doing them. Sadly, they’re not (under the current arrangements required by the U.K. government)

Thirdly, and most pertinently, international routes are available to open access now. Any willing and able operator could do it. Of course, they would need to operate trains that meet the Eurotunnel safety requirements, and the relevant requirements of the infrastructure operator(s) either side. They would also have to pay the same fee per passenger to Eurotunnel that Eurostar does - approx £30 one way. If after all that they can make a better show of it than Eurostar, and still turn a profit, good luck to them.

 

[RT4038]

Firstly, how do you get from Ashford - Canterbury - Folkestone - Eurotunnel without a very long trip round Kent?

Secondly, if onboard security checks were possible, Eurostar would be doing them. Sadly, they’re not (under the current arrangements required by the U.K. government)

Thirdly, and most pertinently, international routes are available to open access now. Any willing and able operator could do it. Of course, they would need to operate trains that meet the Eurotunnel safety requirements, and the relevant requirements of the infrastructure operator(s) either side. They would also have to pay the same fee per passenger to Eurotunnel that Eurostar does - approx £30 one way. If after all that they can make a better show of it than Eurostar, and still turn a profit, good luck to them.

And who exactly would use such a service? The potential market to/from Calais Frethun is just not there in any numbers to pay for an open access service.

 

[Peter Kelford]

And who exactly would use such a service? The potential market to/from Calais Frethun is just not there in any numbers to pay for an open access service.

The Prefecture won't pay, the region won't pay, the SNCF won't pay so who will? Brits going on a 'booze cruise'? Oh, I just forgot that they won't be able to bring back their alcohol in the future.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Onboard security is a good idea and a practical one if there is enough time. For instance, a train leaving Lyon could stop at CDG for the border control staff to embark and check the train before getting off at Lille with any illegal immigrants.

 

[RT4038]

Onboard security is a good idea and a practical one if there is enough time. For instance, a train leaving Lyon could stop at CDG for the border control staff to embark and check the train before getting off at Lille with any illegal immigrants.

Er, how are all the passengers belongings going to be scanned 'on board'? Just not practicable at all. Border control staff carrying out checks on the move would be much more labour intensive (and therefore expensive and therefore reflected in the price of your ticket) and require a level of co-operation (removing illegal immigrants at Lille) from the French authorities which would unlikely be forthcoming.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Er, how are all the passengers belongings going to be scanned 'on board'? Just not practicable at all. Border control staff carrying out checks on the move would be much more labour intensive (and therefore expensive and therefore reflected in the price of your ticket) and require a level of co-operation (removing illegal immigrants at Lille) from the French authorities which would unlikely be forthcoming.

By not scanning luggage or using a handheld metal detector

 

[Bletchleyite]

handheld metal detector

Bombs generally aren't metal.

 

[RT4038]

The Prefecture won't pay, the region won't pay, the SNCF won't pay so who will? Brits going on a 'booze cruise'? Oh, I just forgot that they won't be able to bring back their alcohol in the future.

There is certainly no reason for any British subsidy for such a service. It is conceivable that (until the prospect of Brexit and ending of free movement of labour) that Nord pas de Calas region may have considered a commuter train subsidy, to relieve unemployment in their region. As for cheaper fares for British tourists to Europe - no chance.

 

[RT4038]

By not scanning luggage or using a handheld metal detector

I presume you're having a joke? Which politician (s) are going to sanction abandoning of full luggage screening? Not going to happen. Even if some kind of portable screening could be done, it would be likely be equipment and staff intensive, which would be reflected in the price of the ticket.

We've rather got off the thread of local services from the UK to Calais Frethun. The most practical way to achieve this would be a shuttle from Ashford to Calais Frethun with security and border checks at each end (using the existing facilities). However, the passenger potential is so low that huge subsidies would be required, and little reason for the UK or French Authorities to pay for them.

Might as well continue carrying the small numbers of local passengers as a marginal operation on board the vehicle ferries!

 

[Bald Rick]

Onboard security is a good idea and a practical one if there is enough time. For instance, a train leaving Lyon could stop at CDG for the border control staff to embark and check the train before getting off at Lille with any illegal immigrants.

On board Border control for immigration / customs would be a good idea, if the U.K. government would accept it. Which it won’t, at least not now. Ideally of course we’d be in Schengen and wouldn’t need border control at all (or at least, not routinely).

On board security checks are rather different and rather difficult. However, personally, I don’t see why they are necessary on Eurostar any more than are necessary at Paddington when travelling to Cardiff, or at Walthamstow when travelling to Brixton.

 

[Ianno87]

Bombs generally aren't metal.

While-E-Coyote's are!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There's a reason it's called "security theatre": it isn't really there primarily to catch terrorists- that's what the police and intelligence services are for. It's more to (a) deter them; and perhaps more importantly (b) to reassure the travelling public.

 

[Peter Kelford]

I presume you're having a joke? Which politician (s) are going to sanction abandoning of full luggage screening? Not going to happen. Even if some kind of portable screening could be done, it would be likely be equipment and staff intensive, which would be reflected in the price of the ticket.

We've rather got off the thread of local services from the UK to Calais Frethun. The most practical way to achieve this would be a shuttle from Ashford to Calais Frethun with security and border checks at each end (using the existing facilities). However, the passenger potential is so low that huge subsidies would be required, and little reason for the UK or French Authorities to pay for them.

Might as well continue carrying the small numbers of local passengers as a marginal operation on board the vehicle ferries!

Or just adding a few more stops on Paris/Bruxelles trains.

There's a reason it's called "security theatre": it isn't really there primarily to catch terrorists- that's what the police and intelligence services are for. It's more to (a) deter them; and perhaps more importantly (b) to reassure the travelling public.

If there was a 'like' or 'agree' button, I'd press it.

 

[RT4038]

Or just adding a few more stops on Paris/Bruxelles trains.



If there was a 'like' or 'agree' button, I'd press it.

Judging by the tiny numbers of passengers boarding/alighting the current trains stopping at Calas Frethun, the existing service is more than adequate. No need to damage journey time competitiveness by stopping more express trains there.

 

[londonteacher]

Judging by the tiny numbers of passengers boarding/alighting the current trains stopping at Calas Frethun, the existing service is more than adequate. No need to damage journey time competitiveness by stopping more express trains there.

My idea was more looking at providing a low cost alternative to Eurostar a bit like LNR does for some Virgin Trains services.

Services could continue to Paris/Brussels calling at some principal local stations along the way.

 

[Ianno87]

My idea was more looking at providing a low cost alternative to Eurostar a bit like LNR does for some Virgin Trains services.

Services could continue to Paris/Brussels calling at some principal local stations along the way.

Repeat - the number of 'local' Eurostar passengers is tiny (although the low frequency and premium price for the services that do exist can't help matters)

LNR only works because they are London and Birmingham local services joined across Northampton - i.e. services that happen to exist anyway.

The HS1/LGV Nord equivalent would be joining the Southeastern Javelin services to the Nord-pas-de-Calais 'Local' Lille TGVs.

But then Canterbury/Dover etc would not have fast trains to London, nor would Calais/Boulougne have fast trains to Lille.

So you'd need a whole new hourly (or whatever) service...which would be far better targeted at the three Capitals market to stand a chance of supporting itself...so why bother with Calais etc etc etc

 

[Wirewiper]

The security issue goes back to the Treaty Of Canterbury, which was signed by The United Kingdom and France to establish protocols for what would effectively be a new land border between the two countries. The Treaty explicitly states that all passengers travelling via the Channel Tunnel must have been security screened. It was signed at a time when terrorism related to Northern Ireland was still a real threat and the Good Friday Agreement would have seemed like the stuff of fantasies.

This requirement can only be removed by renegotiating the Treaty (can Treaties even be renegotiated?) or revoking it.

 

[RT4038]

My idea was more looking at providing a low cost alternative to Eurostar a bit like LNR does for some Virgin Trains services.

Services could continue to Paris/Brussels calling at some principal local stations along the way.

As the services could not be provided 'low cost' (due to, inter alia, tunnel access charges, special rolling stock, security and border control) there is little hope of such a service materialising without a massive political and social change. No comparison with LNR really.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Judging by the tiny numbers of passengers boarding/alighting the current trains stopping at Calas Frethun, the existing service is more than adequate. No need to damage journey time competitiveness by stopping more express trains there.

The security issue goes back to the Treaty Of Canterbury, which was signed by The United Kingdom and France to establish protocols for what would effectively be a new land border between the two countries. The Treaty explicitly states that all passengers travelling via the Channel Tunnel must have been security screened. It was signed at a time when terrorism related to Northern Ireland was still a real threat and the Good Friday Agreement would have seemed like the stuff of fantasies.

This requirement can only be removed by renegotiating the Treaty (can Treaties even be renegotiated?) or revoking it.

Wirewiper, may I also direct you to the Treaty du Toquet?

 

[londonteacher]

No comparison with LNR really

It was meant in the sense that the services could be Standard Class throughout and overall cheaper than the current services offered by Eurostar. Of course, there are some additional costs for international travel that must be included.

By offering more connectivity by stopping at more stations in the UK and on the continent a service to Paris could possibly be achieved in around 3.5hrs.

This may not be the most feasible service, but this is the part of the forum where fantasy services can be suggested.

 

[cactustwirly]

A previous idea was mooted for Transmanche services (between Kent and the Calais region). Could this work as a cheaper alternative to the Eurostar? Calling at for example St Pancras, Stratford International, Ebbsfleet, Ashford, Canterbury, Folkestone and Calais-Frethun (for TGV services). Onboard security checks (possibly), except for those boarding at stations with facilities already. Possible operated by trains similar to the new Eurostar but shorter.

This service is already catered for, Kent passengers can already buy a cheap ticket to Calais via P&O ferries from Dover.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This service is already catered for, Kent passengers can already buy a cheap ticket to Calais via P&O ferries from Dover.

Though foot passenger on that route is a pretty grim experience these days and you feel like you're getting in their way.

 

[Bald Rick]

It was meant in the sense that the services could be Standard Class throughout and overall cheaper than the current services offered by Eurostar. Of course, there are some additional costs for international travel that must be included.

But the point is that Eurostar already offer the lowest possible fare for cross channel train travel. The lowest price single fare (£29) is effectively the cost that Eurotunnel charge Eurostar for each passenger. Eurostar lose money on those tickets.

Were any other operator to try and undercut them, they would make an event greater loss.

 

[RT4038]

Though foot passenger on that route is a pretty grim experience these days and you feel like you're getting in their way.

Probably because you are!

 

[londonteacher]

Though foot passenger on that route is a pretty grim experience these days and you feel like you're getting in their way.

Agreed, I've used the Calais Day tripper and it's not the nicest of experiences.

 

[MarkyT]

This service is already catered for, Kent passengers can already buy a cheap ticket to Calais via P&O ferries from Dover.

Though foot passenger on that route is a pretty grim experience these days and you feel like you're getting in their way.

Not exactly very cheap though at £30 each way this week and that's totally inflexible so if you miss your sailing that's all down the pan and no doubt they'll want a fresh payment of even more on top if you still want to travel, and it's a rubbish booking engine that takes ages to refresh when you make a change. When I first looked it offered me £8 for one leg but I'll be burgerred if I can find that again. Then looking at some dates in October instead it pipes up and says that it can't offer passenger only travel on 'night sailings' which apparently includes the 07.25 from Dover and earlier. Seems very prejudiced against those who can't drive which should be illegal, but then again it probably regards everyone on foot as a potential illegal migrant so they don't want such second class citizens wandering around the vast windswept docks in the dark. It's a pity no one can operate some kind of international local bus service, between the town centres and rail stations of Dover or Folkestone and Calais anymore, like Connex did for a while through the tunnel. The motor dominated port of Calais in particular now look incredibly intimidating for pedestrians from aerial images now with no buildings anywhere near the berths. How do they actually handle non-vehicle travellers today? Do they bus them on board from the terminal? I haven't travelled to or from Europe by ferry since the tunnel opened, but then I don't live in East Kent so travelling from London by Eurostar (or flying) makes most sense for me. It seems options are somewhat limited if you are local and unable to take a car.

 

[londonteacher]

Do they bus them on board from the terminal?

Yes, they do. I think the first service is 8:25 that foot passengers can get which gets you into Calais by 10am.

A Calais Daytripper ticket costs about £40 which includes return anytime train and anytime return ferry tickets. It's not bad, but overall it is slow.

 

[RT4038]

Not exactly very cheap though at £30 each way this week and that's totally inflexible so if you miss your sailing that's all down the pan and no doubt they'll want a fresh payment of even more on top if you still want to travel, and it's a rubbish booking engine that takes ages to refresh when you make a change. When I first looked it offered me £8 for one leg but I'll be burgerred if I can find that again. Then looking at some dates in October instead it pipes up and says that it can't offer passenger only travel on 'night sailings' which apparently includes the 07.25 from Dover and earlier. Seems very prejudiced against those who can't drive which should be illegal, but then again it probably regards everyone on foot as a potential illegal migrant so they don't want such second class citizens wandering around the vast windswept docks in the dark. It's a pity no one can operate some kind of international local bus service, between the town centres and rail stations of Dover or Folkestone and Calais anymore, like Connex did for a while through the tunnel. The motor dominated port of Calais in particular now look incredibly intimidating for pedestrians from aerial images now with no buildings anywhere near the berths. How do they actually handle non-vehicle travellers today? Do they bus them on board from the terminal? I haven't travelled to or from Europe by ferry since the tunnel opened, but then I don't live in East Kent so travelling from London by Eurostar (or flying) makes most sense for me. It seems options are somewhat limited if you are local and unable to take a car.

There are no passengers wandering about the vast windswept docks. They are bussed from Terminal to Ferry and vice versa, no doubt at great cost.

They only offer foot passengers on a time span of day sailings which covers a P&O port shunt (terminal to boat) bus drivers and terminal staff shift. In my experience there are so few foot passengers [often less than 10 on a sailing] that even this service can't be economic. DFDS do not offer foot passenger service at all. Can't see any money to be made out of a bus service. One look at the coach prices for a tunnel transit ......

Both ports are set up for vehicle traffic, which is the overwhelming majority, and why wouldn't it be? There is so little demand for foot passengers. Passengers from East Kent can board a few Eurostars that stop at Ashford and again, from my observation, the current service is more than adequate for the number of passengers travelling.