TransManche Metro - rolling stock

[m82d1]

After the delivery of the new Thameslink rolling stock, could a fleet of cascaded class 319 EMUs become dedicated for the TransManche Metro between Kent and Nord-pas-de-Calais?

I understand that the ceremonial workings through the Channel Tunnel after competition with 319008/009 in 1993 were modified with extended pantographs to meet the Eurotunnel catenary height and also worked under possession due to not being equipped with TVM430.

Pros;

- dual voltage between former SR 750V DC third rail and 25kv AC overhead catenary, so can operate on classic lines in GB and thus not confined to HS1. In regards to the pantograph height differential as per the ceremonial 319s - if the trains would operate predominately in Kent only with the 25kv AC option being used excelusively for the Channel Tunnel and France, the pantograph could be fixed to ET cantery height with no regard to the GB height, I don't know how this would compare with French catenary height.

- retention toilets, so they won't crap all over the Tunnel.

- frontal cab evacuation doors.

Cons;

- no TVM430 or KVB.

- no fire doors, however they could probably be retrofitted by the removal of the existing the hinged doors with sliding doors, as per the Railcare 317/7 refurbishment for the Stansted Express (http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gb/electric/emu-ac/317/WAGN/317_WAGN_Stansted_Express5.jpg).

- platform height differential between GB/F/ET standards.

- no pressure sealing, 319s have hopper windows - so there would possibly be some clashes with atmospherics when inside the CT.

All of these technicalities can also be applied to the 375/377 fleet if they were ever to be proposed for use, too.

 

[Schnellzug]

Wouldn't they need a complete fire detection & suppression system, and so on? i suspect the amount of work that would be needed to make stock that would be, what, nearly 30 years old by then suitable would mean that it would be almost as economic to build new stock. It sounds rather like all these discussions of what would be needed to keep the Pacers going for another 40 years.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Never going to happen. By the time you'd modified 319s to come even close to the requirements for running through the tunnel you'd be much cheaper just buying new trains. Remember that there has been enough trouble over the rules regarding train length, the ability to split trains and underfloor traction equipment.

Even just to run in France they would need TVM430, KVB (to run on classic lines) and retractable steps for the different platform heights in France compared to the UK. Retractable shoes would also need fitting as shoe gear is out of gauge in france.

 

[swt_passenger]

This comes exactly where in the priority list after providing the EMUs for the NW electrification, the GW electrification, and potentially some of the TPE North electrification?

 

[ukrob]

One word answer.

No.

 

[sonic2009]

What about class 395? Can they be cleared for the Tunnel?

 

[Nym]

What about class 395? Can they be cleared for the Tunnel?

No...

Asside from anything else, Fricton Stir Welding is suseptable to heat damage moreso than the likes of riveted or MIG/TIG welded constriction.

I don't see what would be wrong with using the NoL units...

 

[sonic2009]

Where are the NoL units nowadays?

 

[Nym]

Still running Paris - Calis semi-fasts IIRC, would be cheaper to buy new units for that at UIC-GC gauge as a follow on to another order of say, AGVs or TGVs by cascade, and use the NoL Sets on the TMM or NoL services using HS2 and possibly the WCML to Manchester... (With HS2 and the route from Rugley, the non-tilteyness wouldn't be too much of a penalty, but it may be too slow to operate on HS2 at a meer 186mph, since it will be running at 250mph?)

 

[jopsuk]

TransManche Metro would really need to run at least as far as Ashford and probably Lille on the other side along the HS lines- you'd want HS stock sensibly

 

[DownSouth]

Still running Paris - Calis semi-fasts IIRC, would be cheaper to buy new units for that at UIC-GC gauge as a follow on to another order of say, AGVs or TGVs by cascade...

Eurostar's pending order for 10 Velaro e320 sets has an option for an extra 13 sets to be added.

 

[Nym]

Eurostar's pending order for 10 Velaro e320 sets has an option for an extra 13 sets to be added.

That would do for the Metros, or the other thing I was getting at was ordering stock for the Calais services and giving the NoL sets back to E* Operation.

 

[Mike C]

To run in the channel tunnel requires more than just adding fire doors and the required signalling. The whole train has to be compliant with the very strict fire regulations for a start. That means EVERYTHING from the cabling, seat covers, rubber used on seals to the paint. NFF 16-101 is the relevant standard, and UK trains aren't built to this.

There also needs to be double redundancy built in to traction systems. Modifying an old train is just impractical, expensive and ultimately pointless. It would be too short, too slow, too underpowered, too unreliable...

The ET wire height is nominally 6070mm above rail. On CTRL, it is 5280mm. I think the required minimum height for level crossings on NR is around 5600mm.

 

[O L Leigh]

I understand that the ceremonial workings through the Channel Tunnel after competition with 319008/009 in 1993 were modified with extended pantographs to meet the Eurotunnel catenary height.

Extended pans are not required. The problem with the OLE is not that it is out of reach but that it is simply higher than normal. This means that the Auto Dropping Device (ADD) would probably intervene to protect the pan from going overheight before reaching the contact wire.

The OLE at Ilford depot is also higher than elsewhere on the network, so EMUs visiting for the first time often suffer with ADD activations within the depot confines. I know this happened to the first few Cl379s and also to some of the Cl317s when they were transferred over from Hornsey. All that needs to be done is to adjust the banjo joint so that it allows the pan to rise higher before the ADD intervenes.

Alternatively, for a one-off trip like this, the ADD could have simply been isolated.

They could probably be retrofitted by the removal of the existing the hinged doors with sliding doors, as per the Railcare 317/7 refurbishment for the Stansted Express (http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gb/electric/emu-ac/317/WAGN/317_WAGN_Stansted_Express5.jpg).

Those are not sliding doors, and nor are they fire resistant.

O L Leigh

 

[Mike C]

The overheigt ADD valve on NoLs is only activated when the train is in 25kV classic configuration. When on GV or ET the pan doesn't have an overheight intervention from ADD.

 

[O L Leigh]

GV...? ET...?

Irrespective of what systems Eurostar use, Cl319s have ADD that is active all the time. It's what protects the pan from "breaking it's back" or catching on a structure if it happens to run off the wire for whatever reason. It is a mechanical system set to operate when the pan extends beyond a certain height.

Quite why (or, indeed, how) Eurostar would have the ADD inactive at certain times is beyond me. It is the same pan the train uses when on 25kV AC and only requires to changeover when running on the Belgian 3kV DC system. However, the pan is always in danger of going overheight and being damaged no matter where it is operating. Either the pan is robust enough to survive going overheight (in which case ADD probably isn't required) or it isn't.

O L Leigh

 

[Mike C]

O L Leigh - sorry I couldn't make it clearer earlier - typing on an iPhone makes me want to cry, so I just gave up and only told half what I wanted to. Now I have a proper keyboard, I will expand.

I'm Eurostar's Senior Mech systems engineer, allow me to explain:

The NoL's (along with 3 Capital sets) use a Faiveley GPU pantograph on 25kV lines - that's BR Classic, GV (Grand Vitesse), ET (EuroTunnel), HS (UK High Speed) and French Classic (between Gonesse and Paris Nord).

The wire height in ET is so high (over 6m) that it would activate the ADD on overheight therefore it is deactivated when configured for ET running. This doesn't cause any problems. However when running under NR wires, it is put back in for the same reasons your units have it.

I've purposefully raised the pans before (including the Brecknell Willis ones) right up to their maximum height stop (not the ADD activation) when there was no wire present and they're fine - they just hit a physical stop and go no further. The 3kV (or 1.5kV on ski trains) pantograph can also have it's overheight ADD deactivated as it is used as a secours (or emergency) pantograph in the tunnel.

I hope that explains better what I was trying to say. Touch-phone fail.

 

[O L Leigh]

Thanks for clarifying. Clearly the ADD on the Eurostar is not simply a mechanical system as it is on the EMUs I'm familiar with.

O L Leigh