Transition era

[Big Jumby 74]

The SWML mainline went straight from steam to electric with REP/TC combos in 1967

Mustn't forget the 3 car WR DMMU's, designated '3 S' (3 car Suburban) in the SWD CWN's that replaced steam and worked the hourly Woking to Basingstoke/Salisbury shuttles in 1965/66 prior to the first VEPs arriving from York works.

 

[contrex]

References above to the LBSCR not having heard of Engineers Line Reference are correct and not surprising. ELR was adopted nationally from what was originally a Western Region Civil Engineering Department system of identification of routes and locations (by adding milepost mileage/chainage/yardage) in the mid 1980s - a fair while after the LBSCR became part of the Southern Railway at Grouping over 50 years earlier.

Nobody suggested that the LB&SCR had 'never heard' of Engineers Line References. Only that the Brighton Main Line includes London Bridge.

 

[nw1]

Mustn't forget the 3 car WR DMMU's, designated '3 S' (3 car Suburban) in the SWD CWN's that replaced steam and worked the hourly Woking to Basingstoke/Salisbury shuttles in 1965/66 prior to the first VEPs arriving from York works.

Interesting to hear that. 117s or 119s, presumably?

How did they diagram them? I know for a time that WR DMUs operated the stopping services west of Salisbury (e.g. 1965 WR timetable on Timetable World, with a selection of bizarre cross-Exeter workings like Salisbury to Okehampton); were they the same pool?

Would be interesting to hear about the timetabling, as there is a gap on Timetable World after about 1963, with the next available source of information being the July 1967 CWN on the BR Coaching Stock groups.io group. The traditional steam-era timetable seemed to have a clockface xx54 steam service fast to Woking then all to Basingstoke, and some hours extending to Salisbury or even, in some years, other destinations. I think I had it in my head that these steam services were directly replaced by VEPs, but evidently this wasn't the case. Presumably the WR DMUs took the xx54 path SW of Woking, and used the Platform 6 bay?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Interesting to hear that. 117s or 119s, presumably?

They were from that family of units. There's a photo of one (being overtaken by a Warship) in the Deepcut area in October 65 in the Middleston Press book, Woking to Southampton.

How did they diagram them? I know for a time that WR DMUs operated the stopping services west of Salisbury (e.g. 1965 WR timetable on Timetable World, with a selection of bizarre cross-Exeter workings like Salisbury to Okehampton); were they the same pool?

They commenced working the services concerned in the summer 65 timetable. They interworked with units working from Reading depot and starting out of Salisbury, so a bit of a mix timetable wise. I'll rough out the SX diagrams for that timetable period and post later. SO was similar pattern to SX by looks of things, but SUN was much more self contained between Woking and Basingstoke.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2022 ==

WR DMMU diagrams, SX, 14th June to 5th September 1965 (as previously mentioned);

For expedience the following location abbreviations used: B = Basingstoke, RG = Reading General, RDS = Reading Diesel Sidings, S = Salisbury, SECS = Salisbury East Carr Sidings, W = Woking.

Also symbol: + = empty train, V = vans (ie; ran essentially as a mail train, but suspect also permitted passengers, as the SO train in the same timings makes no reference to 'V'). Diagram numbers shown are purely fictional to identify the three diagrams listed here, those that worked to Woking. I do not know what the correct diagram numbers were, these not being shown in the CWN.

It should also be noted the attached ONLY relates to the three diagrams that took these units to Woking. Other diagrams were also involved between Reading, Basingstoke and Salisbury, which provided the overall 'balanced' working each day.

 

[Taunton]

I believe the diesel multiple units on Woking to Basingstoke/Salisbury were operated with a mix of the WR Pressed Steel suburban units and the Gloucester Cross-Country units, interworked from Reading depot, although the main service on the linking Reading-Basingstoke line at the time was Southern demus running to Portsmouth, and there were also right to the end in 1967 some steam-hauled services through from Waterloo serving the local stations to Salisbury. I don't think the Western units reached Waterloo.

The stopping services west of Salisbury, for as long as they lasted, were run through to Exeter and sometimes beyond by a motley group from Plymouth depot, which had been moved in there from other WR depots and included suburban units on inappropriate lengthy runs. As Salisbury also got Bristol and Cardiff units on the line from there to Portsmouth, it saw possibly a wider range of Western dmus than anywhere within that region.

I think that when the 1967 electrification happened the Reading to Basingstoke Southern demus were diverted there to run as the locals to Salisbury.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The 'planned' WR units (designated 3S in the SWD CWN as mentioned) diagrammed on the Woking shuttles comprised the following seating, if this helps to identify which unit type(s) were supposed to work said diagrams...

MBS = 65 seats 2nd class, split 45 smoking/20 non smoking.
TCL = 24 seats 1st class, split 17 smoking, 7 non smoking, and 50 seats 2nd class, split 29 smoking, 21 non smoking.
MS = 91 seats 2nd class, split 65 smoking, 26 non smoking.

By way of comparison, the 'planned' units (also designated 3S in the SR CWN's) that were diagrammed in the Weymouth area were slightly different, as follows;

MBS = as per above (units on Woking shuttles).
TC = 28 seats 1st class, split 18 smoking, 10 non smoking, and 74 seats 2nd class, split 52 smoking, 22 non smoking.
MS = 95 seats 2nd class, split 73 smoking, 22 non smoking.

Of course, that was just 'the plan' and I think most reading this will understand the reality was often somewhat different...!

And, yes, some 3H's did go over to working the Basingstoke - Salisbury locals as you rightly say. I remember diagramming them (STP mode) myself, most services on the Down starting from the now long gone Down Bay platform (1A, IIRC?) at Basingstoke. However the Reading - Basingstoke service remained mostly operated by 3H units going forward, certainly until the late 70's. I can't now recall when it went over to WR unit operation?

 

[30907]

Nobody suggested that the LB&SCR had 'never heard' of Engineers Line References. Only that the Brighton Main Line includes London Bridge.

And I'd bet it was more often referred to as the Brighton Line back then and well into BR days - and similarly for just about any route that now has "Main" in the title, except possibly the LSW.
(And OT, but from Brighton the routes were East and West Coast (no way!).

 

[Magdalia]

MBS = 65 seats 2nd class, split 45 smoking/20 non smoking.
TCL = 24 seats 1st class, split 17 smoking, 7 non smoking, and 50 seats 2nd class, split 29 smoking, 21 non smoking.
MS = 91 seats 2nd class, split 65 smoking, 26 non smoking.

These are Birmingham RCW 3 car suburban units (class 118).

MBS = as per above (units on Woking shuttles).
TC = 28 seats 1st class, split 18 smoking, 10 non smoking, and 74 seats 2nd class, split 52 smoking, 22 non smoking.
MS = 95 seats 2nd class, split 73 smoking, 22 non smoking.

These are Derby Works 3 car suburban units (class 116).

The Pressed Steel 3 car suburban units (class 116) had same seating capacity as Birmingham RCW in the motor cars but the trailer was 22 First and 48 Second.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Thank you Magdalia. The original OP not being mine, I didn't have the time to go hunting down what was what, so just provided the above info that was in the front of the relevant CWN. Cheers..

 

[nw1]

They were from that family of units. There's a photo of one (being overtaken by a Warship) in the Deepcut area in October 65 in the Middleston Press book, Woking to Southampton.


They commenced working the services concerned in the summer 65 timetable. They interworked with units working from Reading depot and starting out of Salisbury, so a bit of a mix timetable wise. I'll rough out the SX diagrams for that timetable period and post later. SO was similar pattern to SX by looks of things, but SUN was much more self contained between Woking and Basingstoke.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2022 ==

WR DMMU diagrams, SX, 14th June to 5th September 1965 (as previously mentioned);

For expedience the following location abbreviations used: B = Basingstoke, RG = Reading General, RDS = Reading Diesel Sidings, S = Salisbury, SECS = Salisbury East Carr Sidings, W = Woking.

Also symbol: + = empty train, V = vans (ie; ran essentially as a mail train, but suspect also permitted passengers, as the SO train in the same timings makes no reference to 'V'). Diagram numbers shown are purely fictional to identify the three diagrams listed here, those that worked to Woking. I do not know what the correct diagram numbers were, these not being shown in the CWN.

It should also be noted the attached ONLY relates to the three diagrams that took these units to Woking. Other diagrams were also involved between Reading, Basingstoke and Salisbury, which provided the overall 'balanced' working each day.

Many thanks for that, very interesting. Looks like the xx27 departure time out of Woking was broadly consistent with the old steam timetable which had xx54 departures out of Waterloo, so presumably a Woking departure time around that point in the hour.

Looks like the general pattern was hourly Woking to Basingstoke, and then two-hourly on to Salisbury, with one diagram covering the Woking-Basingstoke shuttle and the others going on to Salisbury.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2022 ==

I believe the diesel multiple units on Woking to Basingstoke/Salisbury were operated with a mix of the WR Pressed Steel suburban units and the Gloucester Cross-Country units, interworked from Reading depot, although the main service on the linking Reading-Basingstoke line at the time was Southern demus running to Portsmouth, and there were also right to the end in 1967 some steam-hauled services through from Waterloo serving the local stations to Salisbury. I don't think the Western units reached Waterloo.

The stopping services west of Salisbury, for as long as they lasted, were run through to Exeter and sometimes beyond by a motley group from Plymouth depot, which had been moved in there from other WR depots and included suburban units on inappropriate lengthy runs. As Salisbury also got Bristol and Cardiff units on the line from there to Portsmouth, it saw possibly a wider range of Western dmus than anywhere within that region.

I think that when the 1967 electrification happened the Reading to Basingstoke Southern demus were diverted there to run as the locals to Salisbury.

Interesting to note that the DMUs do not cover any diagrams for Woking-Basingstoke stopping services around the peak.

Presumably the local stations on this stretch were covered by longer-distance through steam (or diesel?) hauled services from/to Waterloo in peak hours.

Presumably also the departure and arrival times at Woking were timed to connect from and to fast Waterloo services; I know the fast Portsmouth Direct service was xx50 off Waterloo which would fit, and I think the up Portsmouth fast left Haslemere at xx03, so Guildford around xx18 and Woking around xx26 which would also provide a reasonable connection in the up direction.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Interesting to note that the DMUs do not cover any diagrams for Woking-Basingstoke stopping services around the peak.

I can't comment about the exact same timetable period as my DMMU diagram extract, but I do have the LH CWN commencing 5th September 1966, so it may have been a similar situation, still being prior to the official 1967 transition to full EMU operation. To gauge the overall situation, without having access to any documents of the exact same period of time, one could ask how many VEP's had been delivered (or dragged from YK to the SR by class 33's if I recall correctly?) by the autumn of 66, but suspect EMU crew training etc was still a major factor at that point in time, so steam LH services were likely still the same or similar as 1965.

Anyway I digress - peak hour Basingstoke stoppers Sept 66 CWN - I'll throw the following LH services in to the arena as possible candidates for Basingstoke/Salisbury stoppers (I don't have the associated timetable details to confirm any stopping patterns), but I would guess these presumably worked by Standard 5's largely, being the very reliable locos they proved to be;

SX days - UP a.m. Peak services

06.29 Basingstoke to Waterloo, formed 2 SK, 3 Set L, 2 GUV.
07.05 Basingstoke to Waterloo, formed 1 SK, 1 CK, 1 BSK, 4 S (4 Set?), 1 BSK, 1 FK, 1 SK.
07.27 Basingstoke to Waterloo, formed 1 SK, 1 CK, 1 BSK, 4 S, 1 BSK, 2 CK.
08.23 Basingstoke to Waterloo, formed 1 FK, 3 Set L, 1 SK, 3 Set K, 1 SK.

06.49 Salisbury to Waterloo, formed 2 S (2 Set?), 1 BSK, 1 FK, 1 SK, 2 CK, 3 Set K.
07.46 Salisbury to Waterloo, formed 6 Set (525), 1 SK.

SX days - DOWN p.m. Peak services

17.09 Waterloo to Basingstoke, formed 2 CK, 1 BSK, 4 S, 1 BSK, 1 CK, 1 SK.
17.41 Waterloo to Salisbury/Basingstoke. This service divided at Basingstoke. Front (Salisbury) portion formed 1 SK, 1 FK, 1 BSK, 2 S. Rear (Basingstoke) portion formed 2 S, 1 BSK, 1 CK, 1 SK, 1 FK.
18.00 Waterloo to Salisbury, formed 1 SK, 6 Set (525), 2 CK, (and 1 SK additional on rear ThFO).
18.09 Waterloo to Basingstoke, formed 1 SK, 1 FK, 1 BSK, 2 S, 1 SK, 3 Set L, 1 SK, 1 CK.
18.54 Waterloo to Salisbury/Basingstoke. Front (Salisbury) portion formed 3 Set K. Rear (Basingstoke) portion formed 1 SK, 3 Set L, 1 GUV.

Hope that covers most of the missing services not covered by the WR DMMU's.

 

[Taunton]

There were of course many photographers around the SWML in its last steam year, and the Waterloo to Basingstoke/Salisbury stoppers and semi-fasts seemed to be handled principally by BR Standard Class 5 and 4 locos. I think that in addition to the Bournemouth Mani, Salisbury steam shed lasted to the end. I don't believe the WR Warships were used on these intermediate services, only on services beyond Salisbury, through to Exeter. It is of course possible that Class 33s worked some of them, which the photographers ignored.

 

[nw1]

I can't comment about the exact same timetable period as my DMMU diagram extract, but I do have the LH CWN commencing 5th September 1966, so it may have been a similar situation, still being prior to the official 1967 transition to full EMU operation. To gauge the overall situation, without having access to any documents of the exact same period of time, one could ask how many VEP's had been delivered (or dragged from YK to the SR by class 33's if I recall correctly?) by the autumn of 66, but suspect EMU crew training etc was still a major factor at that point in time, so steam LH services were likely still the same or similar as 1965.

Anyway I digress - peak hour Basingstoke stoppers Sept 66 CWN - I'll throw the following LH services in to the arena as possible candidates for Basingstoke/Salisbury stoppers (I don't have the associated timetable details to confirm any stopping patterns), but I would guess these presumably worked by Standard 5's largely, being the very reliable locos they proved to be;

SX days - UP a.m. Peak services

06.29 Basingstoke to Waterloo, formed 2 SK, 3 Set L, 2 GUV.
07.05 Basingstoke to Waterloo, formed 1 SK, 1 CK, 1 BSK, 4 S (4 Set?), 1 BSK, 1 FK, 1 SK.
07.27 Basingstoke to Waterloo, formed 1 SK, 1 CK, 1 BSK, 4 S, 1 BSK, 2 CK.
08.23 Basingstoke to Waterloo, formed 1 FK, 3 Set L, 1 SK, 3 Set K, 1 SK.

06.49 Salisbury to Waterloo, formed 2 S (2 Set?), 1 BSK, 1 FK, 1 SK, 2 CK, 3 Set K.
07.46 Salisbury to Waterloo, formed 6 Set (525), 1 SK.

SX days - DOWN p.m. Peak services

17.09 Waterloo to Basingstoke, formed 2 CK, 1 BSK, 4 S, 1 BSK, 1 CK, 1 SK.
17.41 Waterloo to Salisbury/Basingstoke. This service divided at Basingstoke. Front (Salisbury) portion formed 1 SK, 1 FK, 1 BSK, 2 S. Rear (Basingstoke) portion formed 2 S, 1 BSK, 1 CK, 1 SK, 1 FK.
18.00 Waterloo to Salisbury, formed 1 SK, 6 Set (525), 2 CK, (and 1 SK additional on rear ThFO).
18.09 Waterloo to Basingstoke, formed 1 SK, 1 FK, 1 BSK, 2 S, 1 SK, 3 Set L, 1 SK, 1 CK.
18.54 Waterloo to Salisbury/Basingstoke. Front (Salisbury) portion formed 3 Set K. Rear (Basingstoke) portion formed 1 SK, 3 Set L, 1 GUV.

Hope that covers most of the missing services not covered by the WR DMMU's.

Interesting, many thanks for that.

It looks like those peak services are actually (more or less) the same as the 1963 timetable, which is available on Timetable World (https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=33509126-2532-400d-8175-817ef13d0680) and presumably represents one of the last pure-steam timetables.

The 1709, 1800, 1809 and 1854 were all present on that, and the 1741 was two minutes later at 1743. The 1800 I think was a long-standing service, an extra to the two-hourly fast Salisbury pattern which was still in existence at the time the hourly off-peak to Salisbury was introduced in the early 80s.

Another observation is that the xx54 off-peak steam service to Basingstoke (or beyond) of 1963 departed Woking at xx27, the exact same time as the DMU service.

Wonder if VEPs worked some of the off-peak DMU shuttles for a while before the July 1967 recast, to make that three types of power (steam, diesel, electric) in that xx27 path in just three or four years?

A final observation is that in late steam days, there were actually just two regular fasts from Waterloo to Woking, very close to each other: the xx50 Portsmouth EMU and xx54 steam service mentioned above. Many Bournemouth and Exeter services didn't call at Woking in 1963, and the local services were all stations from Surbiton. A half-hourly or better fast service to Woking only came in with full electrification in 1967, when the "dividers" came in at xx13 and xx43 calling Surbiton only.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I don't believe the WR Warships were used on these intermediate services, only on services beyond Salisbury

Quite so, They were only used on Exeter services. Two, now both departed, ex colleagues were on the admin side at Salisbury (steam) shed back in the day, and on my last visit to the derelict site sometime in the 80's, the cobbled floor and the rubble infilled pits were all still there under the head height weeds. I found it a very sad sight knowing what had gone before.

 

[nw1]

There were of course many photographers around the SWML in its last steam year, and the Waterloo to Basingstoke/Salisbury stoppers and semi-fasts seemed to be handled principally by BR Standard Class 5 and 4 locos. I think that in addition to the Bournemouth Mani, Salisbury steam shed lasted to the end. I don't believe the WR Warships were used on these intermediate services, only on services beyond Salisbury, through to Exeter. It is of course possible that Class 33s worked some of them, which the photographers ignored.

Quite a change from what people would do in the 80s ! (I can see why, of course).

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Wonder if VEPs worked some of the DMU shuttles for a while before the July 1967 recast,

Possibly, but it would have only been on a diagram that didn't go west of Basingstoke (obviously), and would have been largely dependent on traction trained crew availability. Given the very fast moving (fluid) ongoing changes at that time, the planners would not have had time to get involved in any ultra complex diagram re writing, so if a simple (stock based) diagram lended itself to easy conversion to EMU traction, it may have happened, but only subject to crew availability as mentioned. I don't honestly know...

 

[nw1]

Possibly, but it would have only been on a diagram that didn't go west of Basingstoke (obviously), and would have been largely dependent on traction trained crew availability. Given the very fast moving (fluid) ongoing changes at that time, the planners would not have had time to get involved in any ultra complex diagram re writing, so if a simple (stock based) diagram lended itself to easy conversion to EMU traction, it may have happened, but only subject to crew availability as mentioned. I don't honestly know...

OK thanks, no worries! Seems a very fascinating period for the SWML so just trying to get some insight into it, many thanks for your replies above.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

when the "dividers" came in at xx13 and xx43 calling

12 & 42 in my time, but I won't quibble....

 

[nw1]

12 & 42 in my time, but I won't quibble....

12 and 42 in my time (1983 onwards, my first visit to Woking being on 22/2/83) too, but I'm taking the 13/43 timings from the 1967 SWD CWN on the brcoachingstock groups.io group.

Not sure when it changed. Guess it may have coincided with the new CIG-based timetable on the Portsmouth Direct in 1970; the 12/42 were in my day Basingstoke/Alton and Bournemouth/Alton respectively, but in 1967 the 13 was Basingstoke/Portsmouth and 43 Bournemouth/Alton. Also in 1967 they were VEP/HAP combos typically, rather than the VEP/VEP of latter days. Meanwhile the "other half-hour" Portsmouth and Alton stoppers were at 27/57, called all from Surbiton and were formed of BILs. I realise we are getting OT here

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The standard 12/42 pattern worked by VEP's was certainly in place by 1972, and that was before the fleet (VEPs) had all been delivered, the last, 7894, not arriving on the Southern until 1974 if my memory is correct, although not a SW unit at the time.
The change from 13/43 to 12/42 may just have been a result of timetable 'tweaking' during the first year of full electric services. There will bound to have been a few cases where the originally planned timings didn't quite match the reality once the EMU's starting working in earnest.