Trans-manche metro

[Relativenewbie]

http://www.oliviercadic.com/emploi/eurotunnel-favorable-a-lidee-dun-metro-trans-manche/

So it looks like this idea (to link up Lille and Calais with Kent for commuter style services) is looked on favourably by Eurotunnel. Seems like a good thing,even though the French only seem to be pushing it to reduce their own rates of unemployment. It seems more like a pipe dream at the moment because a solid operator is yet to be found, but do you think it could work?
I still find it hard to imagine this sort of service being cheap enough for any but the most successful businesspeople, who probably aren't the ones who need to be lifted out of 'chomage' anyway. Still, progress (and competition) is dearly needed through the chunnel so I'm all for it. Thoughts?

 

[Ivo]

Malheureusement nous ne pouvons pas parler en français. Avez-vous une article en anglais s'il vous plait?

Je pense que cette idée est tres ambitieux, mais aussi assez complexe.

Je l'aime!

 

[Jordy]

La Google Translate: http://translate.google.com/ :P

 

[Ivo]

Je peux parler en français; pour moi, c'est pas de problème. Mais pour les autres hommes; pense-tu que La Google Translate est suffisant?

Je ne l'aime pas...

 

[W-on-Sea]

Moi, je comprends le français aussi.

My first thought is: that would be a great idea. (economically viable? perhaps, with a bit of imagination and promotion. but more realistically, perhaps not)

My second thought (which I've been unable to substantiate on the basis of some very brief google searches): could this be tied with campaigning an advance of next year's presidential elections in France?

The connection is that the Mayor of Lille, Martine Aubry, who is also the First Secretary of the opposition Socialist Party (and is quite a formidable figure, really) is considered to be one of the favourite potential candidates from the party (and, as such, given Sarkozy's relative unpopularity, could even be in with a decent chance of becoming president). And obviously she wants to do things that draw attention to herself within her (very divided and fractious) party, so as to be selected as their preferred candidate... And this year would be the last chance to do that, really. (Elections must be due about this time next year)

Backing this sort of thing, as well as being a way of getting local support, would most likely be considered a good prestige project at a national level (and backing public transport schemes is seen as a good thing for politicians of left AND right in France - thinking of Alain Juppé's fantastic tram scheme in Bordeaux).
(Sighs and despairs at how different the situation is in Britain, or at any rate England and Wales and Northern Ireland)

And certainly the area around Lille (and Nord-Pas-de-Calais) in general could use some regeneration: a lot of rather run-down post industrial and old coal mining towns.


But as I don't know if she is involved in any way, this is of course nothing more that speculation you understand....

It's been quite a while since I read Le Monde on a daily basis, you see, and my visits to France these days seem to be timed to coincide with the rentrée in early September...

 

[umontu]

Takes me a bit of effort but I can read it.
I can't see this working too well while our boarders agency is so strict.
Passport check every time you leave your house etc isn't too great an idea of a comute.

Having not used other border crossings by rail is it as strict in to Spain, Germany, Benelux, Switzerland, Italy, Monaco or Andora from France?

 

[gordonthemoron]

no border checks in those countries due to Schengen.

Having to go back to the UK on a monthly basis, I'm not at all convinced that UKBA is effective rather than just grumpy

 

[umontu]

no border checks in those countries due to Schengen.

Having to go back to the UK on a monthly basis, I'm not at all convinced that UKBA is effective rather than just grumpy

So it's the same as road. I have to agree with your opinion on the UKBA.
I'd ask why can't we just join the Schengen?, but I know it'll lead to a huge rant.

Would a train like the Class 395 be used for such a service? Implying metro makes me think of trains like Rome's metro Linea B... Nice line.

 

[cle]

So this would be trains from Ashford to Lille, stopping at Calais?

It could only use stations with passport controls - but could potentially start back at Stratford (maybe leave St Pancras ECS) and stop at Ebbsfleet.

With very low fares, it could be a cheap way to get to the continent now that competition is allowed - and could provide international coverage for Stratford and more at Ashford.

Lille connections (and through ticketing) would ensure journeys like Paris, Brussels and much further afield would still be very easy. Why not give it a shot with some Class 395s?

 

[Relativenewbie]

I'd ask why can't we just join the Schengen?, but I know it'll lead to a huge rant.

A huge rant? Not really. I think idealogically it's a good idea but you just have to look at what's happening between France and Italy right now to see the issues, so it makes sense not to for the time being.

The main problem I see is that it effectively duplicates the eurostar route (albeit perhaps with Stratford station in addition) so it wouldn't really be able to take off unless they could seriously undercut eurostar's prices.

 

[gordonthemoron]

plus more trains stopping at Ashford

 

[Ivo]

I think the idea was that it would be an "all-stopper" of sorts between STP and Lille, so Stratford, Ebbsfleet, Ashford and Calais would all be served (whether Maidstone's hopeful [if unlikely] station on HS1 is included is another matter) on a frequent basis. I have to say that I'm not so keen on the idea of using 395s in their current form; can you really imagine 3+2 through the Tunnel?

As I understand it, Calais are extremely keen on the scheme, not least because their Mayor aspires for his city to be considered a commuter destination for London! They are already taking advantage of the Olympics; several teams have agred to have training bases in the area. One way of making up for losing I suppose...!

 

[MCR247]

I think the idea was that it would be an "all-stopper" of sorts between STP and Lille, so Stratford, Ebbsfleet, Ashford and Calais would all be served (whether Maidstone's hopeful [if unlikely] station on HS1 is included is another matter) on a frequent basis. I have to say that I'm not so keen on the idea of using 395s in their current form; can you really imagine 3+2 through the Tunnel?

395s have 2+2

 

[Ivo]

I thought it was 3+2...

Even so, I don't think Lille to London without a First Class option would attract that many people.

 

[ainsworth74]

I thought it was 3+2...

Nope definitely 2+2 I was on one last week

Even so, I don't think Lille to London without a First Class option would attract that many people.

I think it would depend on your target market, if it's commuters from Kent to Calais/Lille (and back) then I can see it working even without first class (though some sort of trolley might be a good idea). But if the target is London to Lille then I suspect a better offering would be required to tempt people on board, though wouldn't these customers catch Eurostar anyway (or do Eurostar not call at Lille)?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Eurostar has largely abandoned the rather densely populated south of England by not retaining Waterloo and having such a scant service calling at Ashford. Perhaps the Trans-Manche Metro could run services from Waterloo, or perhaps somewhere like Clapham Junction, to provide non-tube connections for passengers from the south? I read somthing once about the north of France trying to brand itself as part of England to try and benifit from the 2012 olympics, and the Trans-Manche metro was supposed to be up and running by the games to be part of this. So, is there any chance at all, however slim, of it getting up and running in time now?

 

[gordonthemoron]

running Trans-Manche Metro services Waterloo or Clapham Junction would be too slow, require 3rd rail compatible stock and be restricted to UK loading gauge, so unlikely

 

[cle]

I think Waterloo could work - the market would be intermediate places (and wouldn't run via Clapham Junction).... it would miss Ebbsfleet and Stratford though.

Ideally, I'd love Waterloo to become our own Bercy! Convoys of sleeper trains through the tunnel to France, Spain, Italy and others...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I read somthing once about the north of France trying to brand itself as part of England to try and benefit from the 2012 olympics, and the Trans-Manche metro was supposed to be up and running by the games to be part of this. So, is there any chance at all, however slim, of it getting up and running in time now?

I'd say absolutely none - if only because the entire 395 fleet will be heavily utilised with the Olympic shuttles throughout the games! So where would the stock come from to operate the proposed TMM since it appears to involve use of 395s?

 

[N Levers]

I'd say absolutely none - if only because the entire 395 fleet will be heavily utilised with the Olympic shuttles throughout the games! So where would the stock come from to operate the proposed TMM since it appears to involve use of 395s?

I believe 5 class 180's are up for grabs...

I am aware that they are too slow, too short, diesel...

 

[Popper]

Couldn't the trains run from Waterloo and join HS1 at Southfleet Junction, and perhaps have a stop at Bromley South (please)? Waterloo would be useful because there is capacity constraints at all other London Termini.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'd say absolutely none - if only because the entire 395 fleet will be heavily utilised with the Olympic shuttles throughout the games! So where would the stock come from to operate the proposed TMM since it appears to involve use of 395s?

I wouldn't have thought 395s would be allowed in the tunnel anyway. Is there any evidence that that is what they are proposing to use? The Eurostar sets in use by SNCF on TGV services, both their own sets and the leased North Of London sets, and perhaps whatever version of the ICE DB are planning to use on their services to the UK are probablly the only stock currently cleared for the tunnel. If they are planning to use 395s, then the 3rd rail and probablly loading guage issues with running to Waterloo are avoided.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Have a read of Today's Railways Europe issue 185; it appears a certainty that the tunnel rules will very soon be altered to match the EU standard rules.

It appears that the EU is questioning why the separate tunnel regulatory bodies even exist since EU rules are supposed to over-ride such other bodies...

This could get very interesting...

 

[Railjet]

Even so, I don't think Lille to London without a First Class option would attract that many people.

Why not? You're talking about a journey of, say, 100 - 120 minutes. Lille and its surrounding area is not one of the richest areas of France. (Although it has improved significantly as a result of high-speed rail links).

Think of it as a Chiltern Railways service with extra security.

 

[cgcenet]

But if the target is London to Lille then ... wouldn't these customers catch Eurostar anyway (or do Eurostar not call at Lille)?

Presumably the "Transmanche Metro" would be a turn-up-and-go service (the clue is in the word 'Metro'), as opposed to the airline-style fare model applied by Eurostar (where the flexible fares are only for those with unlimited expense accounts). I think a lot of people would be happy to take a moderately fast service that they could just hop onto instead of a super-fast service that they have to book well in advance to get a reasonable fare. Also because most trains would serve all stations on the line, it would make it easier to make the connection with the international train at the most sensible point on the line, rather than most people having to go via London even if it means a big detour (e.g. if you live in Kent or Sussex). And it would force Eurostar to drastically cut its exhorbitant flexible fares.

I think that there is a market for a cross-channel passenger train service that admits that it is a train service, rather than pretending to be an 'airline without wings' as Eurostar does.