Trans Gender

[Steveman]

what is the risk, especially when thinking of adults? that trans gender people are in some way inherent sex offenders? Are they less of risk when they have their bits reshaped?

Have you a daughter ?

 

[telstarbox]

If the OP is thinking of "Winterval" the full story is here.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/media/42231/myth-winterval-shattered-daily-mail-admits-error

 

[EM2]

Every piece of safeguarding advice says you should always have separate sleeping and changing facilities for children of the opposite sex under the age of 18, but in this case it's being ignored.
Anybody who says girls are not being put in danger is in denial.

Is there any evidence of attacks being committed by, or the safety of others being endangered by, transgender people?

 

[DarloRich]

Have you a daughter ?

that doesn't seem to answer the question. What risk do you perceive in a transgender person running brownies? Are they more likely to abuse children?

I get your point about youngsters and would argue that someone of a brownies age wouldn't be able to express a coherent argument as to why they should be classed as trans gender but as for adults............

 

[Steveman]

Is there any evidence of attacks being committed by, or the safety of others being endangered by, transgender people?

I have no idea but plenty of girls have been raped by boys and men and this crackpot idea is definitely making that more likely.
Might be a tiny chance but that is irrelevant.
Why do you think that boys and girls don't sleep together in children's homes and similar places, tell me why it's not done ?

 

[Steveman]

that doesn't seem to answer the question. What risk do you perceive in a transgender person running brownies? Are they more likely to abuse children?

I get your point about youngsters and would argue that someone of a brownies age wouldn't be able to express a coherent argument as to why they should be classed as trans gender but as for adults............

So you don't have a daughter, that figures.
You don't seem to grasp that a man calling himself a woman is still biologically a man or do you deny that.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Steveman's implication seems to be that someone would deal with all the hassle, discrimination, abuse etc that comes with being transgender just to get the chance to abuse a child. Which is pretty damn ludicrous.

Tbh it just sounds like a repetition of the rubbish that has been spouted by the right in the USA where they have tried to stop places having mixed gender toilet facilities through some misguided fear of people using them as a way to abuse others (which again is a load crap, we have mixed gender toilets in many places in this country and no one seems to bat much of an eyelid there).

Steveman - if you are worried about transgender people abusing kids in such a situation, why are you also not worried about gay or bisexual people who may have the same level of responsibility and contact with children as a transgender person may. After all, based on what you have said yourself, the general rule is that a male will look after the boys, so surely that gives a person with disgusting motives a much easier way to do what they want to do?

 

[EM2]

I have no idea but plenty of girls have been raped by boys and men and this crackpot idea is definitely making that more likely.

Why is it more likely that someone who identifies as female should endanger the safety of other females?

Why do you think that boys and girls don't sleep together in children's homes and similar places, tell me why it's not done ?

Because that would involve those identifying as male sleeping in the same room as those identifying as female, which is not the same thing.

 

[DarloRich]

So you don't have a daughter, that figures.
You don't seem to grasp that a man calling himself a woman is still biologically a man or do you deny that.

and that makes him/her MORE likely to abuse children how? What i don't understand is how you make the leap form tansgender to nonce so quickly.

BTW do they become less of a risk when they have there bits chopped off and rebuilt?

 

[WelshBluebird]

I have no idea but plenty of girls have been raped by boys and men and this crackpot idea is definitely making that more likely.

How exactly does it make it more likely?
You seem to be assuming because someone is transgender it means they are more likely to want to abuse kids - I'd love to see the evidence you have for this.

 

[Steveman]

Steveman's implication seems to be that someone would deal with all the hassle, discrimination, abuse etc that comes with being transgender just to get the chance to abuse a child. Which is pretty damn ludicrous.

Tbh it just sounds like a repetition of the rubbish that has been spouted by the right in the USA where they have tried to stop places having mixed gender toilet facilities through some misguided fear of people using them as a way to abuse others (which again is a load crap, we have mixed gender toilets in many places in this country and no one seems to bat much of an eyelid there).

Steveman - if you are worried about transgender people abusing kids in such a situation, why are you also not worried about gay or bisexual people who may have the same level of responsibility and contact with children as a transgender person may.

I expected that type of response on here to be honest, you bought toilets into it which I never mentioned.
I knew that a parent having concerns would be put down as an extremist and ultra right wing.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I expected that type of response on here to be honest, you bought toilets into it which I never mentioned.
I knew that a parent having concerns would be put down as an extremist and ultra right wing.

So maybe answer some of the points then.

How does someone being transgender increase the likelihood of them abusing a child?
Why is a transgender person abusing a child a worry for you but not a gay person doing the same - if you want to base it on numbers, there are more gay people than transgender people, so just based on statistics you are more likely to encounter a gay paedophile than you are a trans paedophile.

 

[Steveman]

Why is it more likely that someone who identifies as female should endanger the safety of other females?

Because that would involve those identifying as male sleeping in the same room as those identifying as female, which is not the same thing.

Don't you know girl guides and the leaders all sleep in the same room when on certain outside events.

 

[Steveman]

So maybe answer some of the points then.

How does someone being transgender increase the likelihood of them abusing a child?
Why is a transgender person abusing a child a worry for you but not a gay person doing the same?

Are you so in denial that you can't see the obvious that a man calling himself a woman sleeping in the same room as a load of young girls isn't in any way a threat.

 

[Johnuk123]

Don't you know girl guides and the leaders all sleep in the same room when on certain outside events.

My daughters always had the group leaders sleeping in their room when they went away to camp but they were all women.

 

[EM2]

Don't you know girl guides and the leaders all sleep in the same room when on certain outside events.

Yes I do. I was a Scout leader myself, and we had female leaders too. And yes, everyone slept in the same room.

 

[DarloRich]

I expected that type of response on here to be honest, you bought toilets into it which I never mentioned.
I knew that a parent having concerns would be put down as an extremist and ultra right wing.

Are you so in denial that you can't see the obvious that a man calling himself a woman sleeping in the same room as a load of young girls isn't in any way a threat.

I understand you have parental concerns - what I cant work out is what they are based upon. If you could provide further and better particulars that would be really helpful. It seems to be your view that transgender people are in some way odd or different so must be an inherent risk to children. Also do you consider such a person less of a risk after surgery and medial treatment?

If that is your view than fine but it is based on very little tangible evidence.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Are you so in denial that you can't see the obvious that a man calling himself a woman sleeping in the same room as a load of young girls isn't in any way a threat.

I am asking how is that any more of a threat than a gay man sleeping in the same room as a load of young boys (or indeed a gay woman sleeping in the same room as load of young girls).
If you can answer that then maybe I can see where you are coming from.

Also, I must question your phrasing of "calling himself a woman". You know that being transgender isn't just you wake up one day and decide you are the opposite sex right? You know it involves a hell of a lot of therapy, hospital appointments, abuse, discrimination etc. A stupidly high percentage of trans people have tried to kill themselves because of what they have to go through every single day. It isn't just someone who decides to call themselves a woman.

 

[Steveman]

I am asking how is that any more of a threat than a gay man sleeping in the same room as a load of young boys.
If you can answer that then maybe I can see where you are coming from.

Also, I must question your phrasing of "calling himself a woman". You know that being transgender isn't just you make up one day and decide you are the opposite sex right? You know it involves a hell of a lot of therapy, hospital appointments, abuse, discrimination etc. A stupidly high percentage of trans people have tried to kill themselves because of what they have to go through every single day. It isn't just someone who decides to call themselves a woman.

I take all that on board about people going through traumas whilst deciding to change from a man to a woman but doesn't change that biologically they are still male.
And yes I would have concerns about gay men sleeping with boys.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Are you so in denial that you can't see the obvious that a man calling himself a woman sleeping in the same room as a load of young girls isn't in any way a threat.

A transwoman - NOT a "man calling himself a woman" which is hideously offensive - is much more likely to be the victim of sexual assault, from both men and women, than the perpetrator.

Why do you think simply because this woman might have male genitalia that she's going to rape children? Do you think everyone with a penis is a rapist? Would you get this outraged if the leader was a lesbian? After all, she's attracted to women...

From my experience in the guides, your daughter is more likely to consensually experiment with other girls than be at risk from a transwoman anyway!

 

[Steveman]

Yes I do. I was a Scout leader myself, and we had female leaders too. And yes, everyone slept in the same room.

As a scout leader did you sleep in the girl guides room/tent when at camp. ?

 

[WelshBluebird]

And yes I would have concerns about gay men sleeping with boys.

So what if the person was bisexual then? Do they have to sleep on their own? :roll:

 

[me123]

I have no idea but plenty of girls have been raped by boys and men and this crackpot idea is definitely making that more likely.
Might be a tiny chance but that is irrelevant.
Why do you think that boys and girls don't sleep together in children's homes and similar places, tell me why it's not done ?

So are you claiming that everyone who is biologically male is a potential rapist, and that we (as a gender/sex) can't be trusted around women and young girls? What makes a trans person more likely to abuse a young girl than anyone else? Women abuse girls as well as men (I'm willing to wager that more young girls come to harm from females than they do from MTF transexuals) - does that mean that we should just abandon these sorts of activity altogether? What sort of sexual threat do prepubescent children pose, that you would oppose a young trans girl joining your daughters' Guide group (bearing in mind that peri-pubescent trans people are often prescribed hormone blockers)?

I don't think that you're an "extremist" or "ultra right wing", to use your words. But I do think that your views are misguided, although it is understandable as a father to want to protect your children (this would apply equally to boys and girls). There's no doubt in my mind that your thoughts are more about your love for and protective instinct towards your daughter. But I don't think that there's any reason to suggest that a transperson is any more likely to abuse a child than any other member of society. Trans people have as much to offer as anyone else (perhaps in many instances more, as they often have to go through quite a lot of abuse), and I think it's wrong that children should miss out on the opportunity to learn more about the world and interact with some great people based on misguided preconceptions.

And yes I would have concerns about gay men sleeping with boys.

Assuming that we're talking about "sleeping in the same room as", I'm not entirely sure why. Are you suggesting that all gay men are inherently child sex offenders?

 

[Johnuk123]

So are you claiming that everyone who is biologically male is a potential rapist, and that we (as a gender/sex) can't be trusted around women and young girls? What makes a trans person more likely to abuse a young girl than anyone else? Women abuse girls as well as men (I'm willing to wager that more young girls come to harm from females than they do from MTF transexuals) - does that mean that we should just abandon these sorts of activity altogether? What sort of sexual threat do prepubescent children pose, that you would oppose a young trans girl joining your daughters' Guide group (bearing in mind that peri-pubescent trans people are often prescribed hormone blockers)?

I don't think that you're an "extremist" or "ultra right wing", to use your words. But I do think that your views are misguided, although it is understandable as a father to want to protect your children (this would apply equally to boys and girls). There's no doubt in my mind that your thoughts are more about your love for and protective instinct towards your daughter. But I don't think that there's any reason to suggest that a transperson is any more likely to abuse a child than any other member of society. Trans people have as much to offer as anyone else (perhaps in many instances more, as they often have to go through quite a lot of abuse), and I think it's wrong that children should miss out on the opportunity to learn more about the world and interact with some great people based on misguided preconceptions.



Assuming that we're talking about "sleeping in the same room as", I'm not entirely sure why. Are you suggesting that all gay men are inherently child sex offenders?

All biological men are potential rapists that is absolutely a fact, the same as they're potential serial killers.
All gay men are certainly potential child sex offenders but probably no more than straight men, Potential is the key word.
I think everybody is getting Steveman wrong, he's not saying trans people are more likely to be sex offenders, but that with this new guidance it's putting children more at risk however slight.

 

[OneOffDave]

The other reason for medics not calling pregnant women 'mum' or 'mother' is not all pregnant women go on to be mothers for a variety of reasons.

 

[OneOffDave]

All biological men are potential rapists that is absolutely a fact, the same as they're potential serial killers.
All gay men are certainly potential child sex offenders but probably no more than straight men, Potential is the key word.
I think everybody is getting Steveman wrong, he's not saying trans people are more likely to be sex offenders, but that with this new guidance it's putting children more at risk however slight.

Is there evidence that children are at more risk from transgendered people than those of the same sex? If they aren't at more risk then the new guidelines may actually reduce the risk overall.

Don't forget, kids are at much much more risk of being abused or killed by their own parents.

 

[Steveman]

The other reason for medics not calling pregnant women 'mum' or 'mother' is not all pregnant women go on to be mothers for a variety of reasons.

From the BMA booklet which might be advisory and might be a year old but still a bit rubbish.

A large majority of people that have been pregnant or have given birth identify as women.

Who would have though that eh ? I'd like to know what the minority figure is of men who have given birth.

 

[me123]

The other reason for medics not calling pregnant women 'mum' or 'mother' is not all pregnant women go on to be mothers for a variety of reasons.

The term we tend to use in maternity services anyway is "woman" or "women". I don't think there's any particular reason why this is the case, it just is the most appropriate term. Pregnant people would be equally appropriate. As you say, not all pregnancies end happily, so using the term "mother" is inappropriate prior to delivery anyway. And there's a loathing to use the word "patient" as it implies abnormality - pregnancy is in fact a very normal state (we've all been involved in at least one).

 

[me123]

Who would have though that eh ? I'd like to know what the minority figure is of men who have given birth.

Some female-to-male transexuals have given birth. It must be a very small minority, but it does happen.

 

[Johnuk123]

Is there evidence that children are at more risk from transgendered people than those of the same sex? If they aren't at more risk then the new guidelines may actually reduce the risk overall.

I doubt it,but nobody is saying children are more at risk from trans people just that putting opposite sex people of any age together in sleeping areas has got to be a risk.