Trains stopping so far from exit points, why????

[dk1]

What do you mean by normal circumstances? All of the above incidents I’ve just listed occurred on trains with door interlock systems functioning as intended.

Only that in most occasions and under normal circumstances and probably could have worded it better as saying that it would have hopefully been detected. The occasions you mention though very important are a tiny proportion compared to the number of times something goes wrong year in year out on a daily basis.

 

[Tester]

Anyone can make a mistake. We are all human after all but it’s all down to how you mitigate it.

I have been following quietly, but it appears quite clear that transferring risk from driver (more powerful) to station staff (less powerful) is quite acceptable to you.

This is hardly a surprise, but is not how risk management should work.

Whilst I can absolutely understand where you are coming from, it is important to keep this in mind in any discussion of the subject.

 

[35B]

Only that in most occasions and under normal circumstances and probably could have worded it better as saying that it would have hopefully been detected. The occasions you mention though very important are a tiny proportion compared to the number of times something goes wrong year in year out on a daily basis.

Which is precisely why the basic premise of the movement of stopping points is so dubious.

 

[dk1]

I have been following quietly, but it appears quite clear that transferring risk from driver (more powerful) to station staff (less powerful) is quite acceptable to you.

This is hardly a surprise, but is not how risk management should work.

Whilst I can absolutely understand where you are coming from, it is important to keep this in mind in any discussion of the subject.

It is simply how risk management and safety now works on the national network. I look at things from all angles but both operations management and ASLEF will want what is best for their drivers/members and what will mitigate incidents and possible repercussions from them.

 

[LowLevel]

• 12/2016, Hayes and Harlington, head and back injuries

• 03/2019, Elstree and Borehamwood, passenger’s dog killed

• 01/2022, Wood Street, passenger forced to run alongside train until it stopped 20 metres later

• 19/2014, Newcastle Central, wrist injury

• 07/2018, Bushey, forearm injury

• 05/2022, North London PTI events (Crouch Hill incident), no injuries

• 14/2018, Notting Hill Gate, serious injuries

• 03/2016, West Wickham, life-changing injuries

• 17/2008, Tooting Broadway, minor injuries

• 15/2018, Radford Road, unoccupied pushchair dragged and crushed

• 06/2024, Archway and Chalk Farm, serious injuries

• 22/2014, Holborn, neck and back injuries

An extremely comprehensive list and a reason that whenever I come across staff new to dispatching duties I make a point of (in a safe way) defeating the obstacle detectors on our train doors to demonstrate that tech isn't to be relied upon for dispatch and that is the same whoever is doing it, station staff, guard or driver. I usually put my boot in the door so they can see the OD work and then trap a pen or similar in it so they can watch it close on it and trap it.

 

[Tester]

It is simply how risk management and safety now works on the national network. I look at things from all angles but both operations management and ASLEF will want what is best for their drivers/members and what will mitigate incidents and possible repercussions from them.

Which reinforces my point rather strongly!

 

[dk1]

Which reinforces my point rather strongly!

Yes, it probably does.

 

[Starmill]

Which reinforces my point rather strongly!

Thankfully management at Hull Trains and many others haven't yet subscribed to that particular view that the driver comes before every other.

 

[AJD]

Have LNER ever had different stop positions for shorter trains, or is this just a hangover from the old relatively similar length Mk4/HST fleet that they've never adjusted for the 5 car sets? If LNER drivers haven't had to worry about it before it might be a higher risk to change it now than on other TOCs who have always been doing it.

As an LNER driver that used to work for a suburban TOC, I feel this is the general sentiment within. I personally have no issue with them putting in 5 car marks as I've done driving turns where I've been rostered every possible formation that my former TOC could have thrown at me in a day. I have mechanisms and processes to check, check and triple check what the train length is and where the stopping positions can be found. However, mention the possibility of 5 car marks being introduced and some drivers lose their minds, with others saying they'll get the union to oppose it. In general, the split in opinion appears to be those who've only ever driven for LNER v qualified entrants, with the former being vehemently opposed to the introduction of 5 car 80x boards.

Frankly after all that training, and given they're hand picked for the role out of many thousands, if someone can't manage a different stop mark then what the 'eck are they doing at the front of a train? It also seems inconsistent with the pressures of shorter dwell times within the new timetable. From one side we're being told timekeeping is more important than ever, but we spend longer positioning a short train at the end of a long platform. Seems contradictory! Just pick a hill to die on and stick with it.

In response to another post, I can see where the 'door release while not accommodated' argument comes from, but we're talking about doing something that's normalised elsewhere. I found that there's a much stronger safety culture at my former TOC, so it isn't a case of slob standards and unnecessary risk taking. I recall booking on one day and wondering why the train I was due to relieve shot right past me. Turns out the stop board I was used to had been removed and a new one placed a couple of coach lengths further up the platform. I remember thinking oh ok, cracked on and barely gave it a 2nd thought. A brief did come out some days later, but by then word had gotten round and everyone was already familiar with it.

 

[bahnause]

Frankly after all that training, and given they're hand picked for the role out of many thousands, if someone can't manage a different stop mark then what the 'eck are they doing at the front of a train? It also seems inconsistent with the pressures of shorter dwell times within the new timetable. From one side we're being told timekeeping is more important than ever, but we spend longer positioning a short train at the end of a long platform. Seems contradictory! Just pick a hill to die on and stick with it.

Mistakes happen. The number of stops that a driver correctly performs during their career is often overlooked.

Unfortunately, I don't have any data on how many times my company's drivers stop in the wrong place per year. However, we can compare the number of forgotten stops with the number of planned stops. The error rate is just 0.00167%. This is significantly lower than the error rate expected given the human influence.

Our stopping boards use metres. This significantly reduces the number of boards required and makes the system clearer and more uniform. This includes the automated customer information. No TOC specifc stopping boards.