Trains...possible improvements?

[Dennis]

Generally speaking, the BVE cab experience seems to be rated quite highly thanks in no small part to the excellent work of the train developers. But, there are a few things which could make it even better.

While there are potential improvements, such as illuminating headlights, which are not really possible, some fairly simple enhancements should be possible. On my wish-list would be (in no particular order of importance)

windscreens.....a lot of 'real' train windscreens seem quite dirty outside of the arc swept by the wiper - this should be easily reproducible although random amounts of dirt on the windscreen would be even better. Appearance of squashed flies should also be achievable (same principles as rain) but how about a screen washer?

engine noise levels.....when passing through a tunnel, there should be a significant increase of the engine noise heard in the cab of locos; not sure if this could be reproduced by tweaking the volumes of the run sounds?


poor performance / train failures.....introduction of randomness in the train performance (in terms of power and hence acceleration / top speed). Also, the occasional complete loss of power, particularly if warning is given of impending problems by something like a rising temperature so that the problem could be 'driven around'.

Just a few thoughts.....

 

[devon_metro]

Interesting. I'd like to see some of the trains offer better performance in the frame rate department!

 

[HSTfan!!!]

Interesting. I'd like to see some of the trains offer better performance in the frame rate department!

get a better graphics card? lol

 

[devon_metro]

get a better graphics card? lol

I get 40fps+ on some trains, 15ish on others on the same route...

Don't think its fair to say I need a new card

 

[westcoaster]

something like pis so u know ur near a station and dont over run it. simular to the msts tool bar that shows the distance to the next station

 

[pedned]

something like pis so u know ur near a station and dont over run it. simular to the msts tool bar that shows the distance to the next station

learn the route :razz:

 

[nath9425]

Thats what you have to do in real life! Im perfect on the 220 Voyager route on NWM

 

[Simon_G]

windscreens.....a lot of 'real' train windscreens seem quite dirty outside of the arc swept by the wiper - this should be easily reproducible although random amounts of dirt on the windscreen would be even better.

I'm not too keen on this: it has been tried in the past (on Tom Beevers' BVE2 Metro Cammell DMU), but since you can't do semi-transparent pixels in the BVE panel, you just end up with very hard-edged opaque speckles on the windscreen, rather than blurry transparent dirt. (For very nicely done screen muck, dig out a copy of Spoorsim if you have one: the diesel has just the effect you describe, complete with wiper smears.)

However, temporary images like raindrops which have a partly symbolic function don't seem as offensive to me, so

Appearance of squashed flies should also be achievable (same principles as rain) but how about a screen washer?

would probably get my support.

engine noise levels.....when passing through a tunnel, there should be a significant increase of the engine noise heard in the cab of locos; not sure if this could be reproduced by tweaking the volumes of the run sounds?

Unfortunately AFAIK the run sounds are modified by speed and power notch only and the very simple sound control (basically on-off) available to the plugin isn't really up to the job. I agree that it would be a nice effect (as would echoes off buildings, walls etc).

poor performance / train failures.....introduction of randomness in the train performance (in terms of power and hence acceleration / top speed). Also, the occasional complete loss of power, particularly if warning is given of impending problems by something like a rising temperature so that the problem could be 'driven around'.

Randomness in train performance is another tricky one: BVE only allows the plugin to select the power notch, so it can introduce variation only at a very coarse level. Otherwise it's down to what's coded in the train.dat. Now the way to get round this would be to run BVE through a new shiny preprocessor which could parse and rewrite the train.dat to include things like randomised performance and variation in train length and load, just as BRR rewrites the route file.

Power failure, especially due to over-temperature, is something I'm considering for my own plugins in the future. I agree that failures should be to some extent driver-induced and avoidable by careful driving - random 'Game Over's seem pretty pointless in BVE.

It's nice to see someone thinking about this sort of thing, Dennis. Despite it's limitations, there's still a lot more we could get out of BVE4.

 

[Dennis]

Thanks for those thoughts Simon G; I know nothing about what is possible on the train building side of BVE but, as always, anything to enhance the realism is welcome and I'm pleased to hear that thought is going into some of the suggestions.

 

[Tom B]

poor performance / train failures.....introduction of randomness in the train performance (in terms of power and hence acceleration / top speed). Also, the occasional complete loss of power, particularly if warning is given of impending problems by something like a rising temperature so that the problem could be 'driven around'.

I think this can be done with OS-ATS - if the temperature goes too high, power will be cut out and the train will fail. There's more in the documentation.

 

[Tom]

Isn't that similar to the rev counter on the BVE4 diesels?

 

[pedned]

Isn't that similar to the rev counter on the BVE4 diesels?

rev counter? You mean the ammeter, measuring amps to teh generator?
Like on the 37 for example, when you hit red it cut the power. More because of the alternator on a 37/4 and to stop the locos getting over powered and flashing over.

 

[Tom]

Yes, sorry.

Would have thought that the engine would be able to cut out if the temperature goes too high.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Temperature cut out sould be easy to simulate, but in real life this wouldn't be driver induced situation, if the cooling system is fine it a train could run at full power indefinitly without problems. Over temperature would only be cause by cooling system faults, although depending on how bad it was careful driving could "get you home". That's engines anyway, motors on the other hand can be overheated by the driver. Below the maximum current of the motors an generator, signified by the red on the ammeter and where the power trips, there is the maximum continuous current, and this is the most current that can be held indefinitly without the motors, generator and other electrical componants overheating. Between those two levels is often a yellow band, and current can only be held in this area for short periods of time (often 5 mins), of else the power will trip due to overheating. In most driving this wouldn't be a factor, but it can come into play with heavy trains on long upward gradients, particularly if starting from a stand. The same issue applies to electrics aswell. Units would never have these issues under normal circumstances, but might if heavily loaded on steep gradients with some motors or engines out. Similar problems can occur with hydralic and mechanical transmission aswell with the gearboxes overheating if heavily loaded for long periods of time.

 

[devon_metro]

I think this can be done with OS-ATS - if the temperature goes too high, power will be cut out and the train will fail. There's more in the documentation.

The rather ill-fated BVE class 87 features this. Its a pain in the arse!

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I get 40fps+ on some trains, 15ish on others on the same route...

Don't think its fair to say I need a new card

beats the 9-15fps I used to get!

 

[Zane Andrew Saxton]

Hi Dennis,

I have tryied introducing 'fly' hitting the wind screen - although I used photographic images for this it didnt turn out to good because they needed to be real small therefore the image looked rather crap (black dot).

I have introduced some more cab sounds including cab heater fan, possible wind sounds, rattling and echo run sounds for tunnels which HAVE turned out good - you'll see on the new version of the 156 when I release it sometime in June.

Kind Regards,

 

[Mintona]

I doubt it's possible, and it may be a bit sick, but is there a way of having birds flying into the windscreen? As I know this does happen a lot...

 

[Bill EWS]

alistairtrainfanman,
Birds tend to just hit with a dull thud, with lots of feathers flying off and a lot of dust on the window, with the ocassional bird dropping spread across the window. You really don't hit birds that much as their eye sight and reactions are pretty quick, most get caught in a collision course by sheer bad luck. I did once get hit with an Owl when it hit the front of an HST racing towards me on the opposite line and the poor bird bounced off the HST window at great speed, straight across to mine, so that was a double-whammy if you like!

larger birds such as Duck and Swan just drop to the ground as they realise they can't avoid the train and hope to be safe on the ground but they usually get hit by the front end around the coupling and brake pipes. I have had a Swan with it's neck wound tightly around the sand pipe. And I had a Bat get stuck on the window wiper, while it's wings continued to flap as if it were flying and staring into the cab. This was on a DMU and after a few minutes I just had to stop and clear it off as it was making me feel quite guilty.

The messiest are bumble Bees and flying Beetles, the Bee disentigrates in a yellowish wet pulp and the Beetle leaves a purpley blood red streak across the window. Both marks spread out like Spider legs. The Beetle is quite hard and makes a fair crack as it hits the window. Sometimes they just bounce off with a loud click. You could have fun trying to model these into BVE! The worst thing to do is use the window wiper, as according to Murphy's Law, it's going to be dry at that moment and you are not going to see out of that window for a time, and even with water and suds it takes a lot of cleaning before the window becomes transparent again. Sometime it's just best to leave it until the loco next goes to the depot.

Pheasants are the Kamakazee's of the bird World. They see a moving object coming towards shen and they stay perfectly still thinking that makes them invisible. Pidgeons are the second Kamakazee birds, not intentionally, they have never learned that swallowing stone ballast adds weight and they need to lift off a lot sooner to get out of the path.

You never see dead Crows on the railway! Older railwaymen used to say that the reason for this is that Crows are reincarnated train drivers .. they know the timetable!!!.

As regards Frame Rates, I am getting very poor results, down to 5fps and no more than 15-17 fps. This is with the 47, 66, HST and the new Pendo. The 37and 31 does much better, managing high 20's. I can accept it as long as they stay in double figues but once they are down to single figures the effect is like slow motion and I often give up at that stage. Perhaps doubling my computer's memory may help! Shutting every possible programme off doesn't and fresh re-boot doesn't seem to make any difference.

Cheers.

BillEWS.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I had a near miss with a phesant when driving the car a few weeks ago, it flew out infront of me and I had no time to do anything other than take my foot of the accelerator, but luckely it was far enough ahead to get clear. Took out plenty of flies that journey though. Best one was travelling on an old bus I used to be involved with, we were going down the motorway and went through a swarm of flies, which were all over the front of the bus, which was frustrating since we'd spent the day before cleaning it. We were not far from the junction we wanted though, and when we stopped at the traffic lights for the roundabout most of the flies flew off. Oviously we were too slow to kill them.
On the subject of hitting birds in BVE, one sim that does this is X Plane, which simulates bird strikes. The birds actually fly around in flocks around airports, and each bird is modelled individually and has it's own weight (which can be altered depending on the type of bird), and when the plane goes through a flock it works out where any birds hit and if the weight of the bird and the speed of the plane is enough it will cause damage and you hear a loud bang. If one hits the windscreen it cracks it and leaves a nice mess, if they hit the engines they will fail, and they can also do other damage (I've had one take out the nose wheel). Can be a little annoying though after a long flight to go through a flock on final approach, loose all or most engines and plummet to the ground.
Two things I think would be nice in BVE in relation to windscreens is the ability to change the style of drops from the route file, so be able to have snow, and perhaps different rain drops (different sizes), and to have rain hitting outside the swept area. The latter could be done by having a couple of textures with varying rain levels on them, from a few spots up to very wet, and it would go through them depending on the rain intensity and how long it's been raining. When the rain stops, it would gradually dry out.

 

[Tom B]

Two things I think would be nice in BVE in relation to windscreens is the ability to change the style of drops from the route file, so be able to have snow, and perhaps different rain drops (different sizes), and to have rain hitting outside the swept area. The latter could be done by having a couple of textures with varying rain levels on them, from a few spots up to very wet, and it would go through them depending on the rain intensity and how long it's been raining. When the rain stops, it would gradually dry out.

Indeed. I'm hoping that, this summer, I will be able to get properly into this DLL business - I can't imagine changing the style of drops would be *that* difficult...?

 

[mbonwick]

Indeed. I'm hoping that, this summer, I will be able to get properly into this DLL business - I can't imagine changing the style of drops would be *that* difficult...?

Famous last words

Best of luck with it though

 

[Tom B]

Don't quote me on that!!

 

[Nelson]

Hi All, I'm fairly new to this BVE sim, had a try with BVE2 some time ago, but this BVE4 is awesome, thanks to your hard work developing it, and I now prefer this to MSTS. I love the train motion effects, tilt etc, the realistic track sounds and other sound effects, the rain and wipers and the overall feeling that you are actually driving this train, brilliant. I don't know if it's been tried, (searched the forum but found nothing) but I'd like to have a sander to help me in the rain with wheelslip like they have in MSTS. Would this be possible?
Regards
Dave

 

[Aureol]

I think that a new plug-in would have to be made to enable the sanders, and I dunno about you but I'm not going to face that task!
It wouldn't be a bad idea, though

 

[velaro]

The adhesion values are set in the route file and cannot be altered in the middle of a run. It would be possible to animate a switch in the cab and play the appropriate sounds, but that's it.

 

[Nelson]

Thanks for that lads, I haven't a clue about coding and such, I leave that to brainy people.
What a great a great sim it's becoming now tho.
Regards
Dave

 

[O L Leigh]

Add-on's for rain and the like are nice, but I really think are needed is something to allow proper DOO operation and to simulate the effect of neutral sections on OLE routes.

Anyone interested in taking this on should PM me for my thoughts.

one TN

 

[Jim]

I think Simon_G and co. are trying to work on a DOO plug-in for the trains, but don't quote me on that!

 

[Simon_G]

to simulate the effect of neutral sections on OLE routes.

Already in the UKMUt plugin that the 323 and 390 use and has been for a year or two. Try running through one of the neutral sections on NWM with the power on and you risk drawing an arc with attendant crashing and banging and possible pan failure*. The risk is increased in the rain, but I haven't got round to linking it to the amount of current being drawn (as my ammeter postdates the last 323 release).

*not entirely realistic, but BVE doesn't allow feedback from plugin to signalling to simulate having the signaller stop the train. Press pan up/reset to recover.

In case you want to adjust it, the config values should be:

pickup.pArcDry=...           - probability of an arc in dry weather
pickup.pFailArc=...          - probability of pan failure if an arc is drawn
pickup.pResetFail=...        - probability of failed pan resetting on each keypress

All probabilities must be scaled 0-100

I've just noticed that the released trains have semicolons after these statements which shouldn't be there and may be impairing operation - try removing them.

DOO is on my list (and part implemented but I got distracted by more interesting stuff). The main limitation seems to be that the plugin can't set the state of items in the secenery so things like mirrors or monitors would have to be faked in the panel (ok for onboard monitors thought).

Nice to see you haven't abandoned BVE altogether one TN