Trains missing stations to make up time?

[adamcoppard]

Hi,

I've been looking at the 16:42 Gloucester to Weymouth service having a look at their expected time for somebody I know, and the history for the journey seems to be an interesting one, leaving Gloucester 23 late, losing time until Bristol Temple Meads and then making up a fair chunk of time.

Two questions really, does anybody know what the cause of the delay was.

Looking at the list of stations it called at to on NRE it appears it was cancelled at Kenysham, Oldfield Park, Freshford, Avoncliff, Bradford-on-Avon and Trowbridge. What sort of delays do their have to be before these stops are removed (which is what it looks like from NRE). Can the conductor / driver make this decision, does it come from somewhere above, or is it to do with any paths that are available for the train? Is this simply an exercise by FGW to minimise the delay, or operationally required? What happens to all those who expected to alight at any of the cancelled stations? Do they get to go to the next station and get the next train back, or must they, once aware of the situation, alight at a preceeding station and await a connection?

Many thanks, and mods feel free to move

 

[Ibex]

The decision to cancel station stops will be made by the TOC's Control, and not the train crew. The train crew would be informed by one of 'Not To Call Order', which instructs the train crew that they are not to stop at the listed stations. Stations have these slips and can issue them to the train crew, or it can be done verbally by control / signallers etc.

There is no rule as such about where the passengers must get off but if it were me I'd get off as soon as it was announced.

There is no operational requirement for trains to have stops cancelled but it does (as you've mentioned) make up a fair chunk of time.

 

[pendolino]

If FGW are like Southern (no reason to think they're not), then the decision is made by Control, and the revised stopping pattern comes on a little slip of paper upon which a member of platform staff will have relayed the information in a largely illegible scrawl.

The decision whether to miss out stations in order to get to a destination on time depends on what effect a late arrival at that destination will have on subsequent services - i.e., where are the train crew and stock needed next. If it's a tight turnaround for both/either, it's often best to run fast so that subsequent service(s) are not disrupted.

edit: basically what has already been said.

 

[anthony263]

tHis does happen occasionally on the valley lines, particulary on the Cardiff Central - Penarth section where trains run non stop through Grangetown & dingle road. I have been on a class 150 which has run limited stop from Cardiff Central to Treherbert. I think it only called at Queen street, Radyr, Pontypridd & Porth & Ystrad Rhondda

 

[adamcoppard]

So, in other words, it's an operational decision, based

1. On the rolling stock available
2. The next working orders of those staff on board
3. The path asigned to the train
4. The next action by the 'unit'

I take it the TOC just looks at the current timing of the units much like I was on NRE and makes it decision, along with all the other factors, based on the above.

Just as an aside, as I love Decision Maths, is there somebody there 'live' making decisions against all of these operational constraints, or is there some computer that, based on the status of the train and any expected issues, any slack time at any stations / paths reconfigures how the train is actually going to act to get it where it needs to be on time, to minimise the delay to the next overall service?

As another quick aside, does anyone know what caused the delay in the first place, from the origin station, was it a similarly late service arriving for the turn around? It also appears to have been delayed on route, is this just an issue of paths available as it's late? I take it it's done on the principle of those on time get priority over those that are running late UNLESS there is a need to bring the late one to a suitable passing point?

 

[Greenback]

I ocne caught a non stop service from Barry Island to Cardiff. It was late leaving Barry Island, but was on time by Cardiff Central, and so was able to from an on time departure to Merthyr.

As it was running at about 1800, there were more passengers for Merthyr than there were from Barry etc. Therefore, fewer people were inconvenienced overall by missing the stops than if the train had called, and there was another train ten minutes later for those passengers who were not picked up!

I've also been on a late FGW HST from Swansea to london, whcih called only at stations to Cardiff. Passengers for Newport, Bristol Parkway, Swindon and Reading were told to change at Cardiff. As a result, we got to London on time.

Good news for FGW as they didn't have to pay any penalties, less good for the non London passengers with reserved seats who then had to cram on a different service to get to where they wanted to go!

 

[First class]

It is a common misconception that the TOC is not penalised for a Fail to Stop.

Each FTS will be assigned a TRUST incident number and will form part of PPM/MAA.

If a TOC needs a Fail to Stop, they are at least >3 minutes late so the train has a PPM failure already. Even if it regains time and arrives in London on time it has failed.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern have done this on the Mid Cheshire line. A late running Chester-Manchester train once called at only Northwich, Altrincham and Stockport between Chester and Manchester.

Now if you rank the stations in order of how many people board and alight Mid Cheshire line services at each station the top of the list goes:
1 Manchester Piccadilly
2 Knutsford
3 Stockport
4 Chester
5 Altrincham
6 Northwich
7 Hale
8 Greenbank

So they missed out number 2 in the list with number 2 getting the same level of frequency as numbers 5 and 6 which were called at. Greenbank gets a large number of school and college passengers but lighter usage at other times and the scheduled time of the delayed train I'm mentioning was close to college finishing time.

 

[Greenback]

It is a common misconception that the TOC is not penalised for a Fail to Stop.

Each FTS will be assigned a TRUST incident number and will form part of PPM/MAA.

If a TOC needs a Fail to Stop, they are at least >3 minutes late so the train has a PPM failure already. Even if it regains time and arrives in London on time it has failed.

That may well be true, but when you factor in the effect of late arrivals then forming late departures, and this then knocking on throughout the traffic day, it must be saving FGW money overall to pay the fail to stop penalties rather than risk having to pay penalties and compensation on later services.

Or are FGW simply being kind to the people who need to be in London on time?!

 

[Eagle]

That may well be true, but when you factor in the effect of late arrivals then forming late departures, and this then knocking on throughout the traffic day, it must be saving FGW money overall to pay the fail to stop penalties rather than risk having to pay penalties and compensation on later services.

And of course that the train might end up too close to a faster train behind; if there are no overtaking opportunities this could jam things up more than a bit...

I love Decision Maths

Presumably you didn't sit Decision Maths 1 on OCR's A-level course this year...

 

[adamcoppard]

So, judging by the comments then, FGW would get fined for

• a late running service
• or missing a stop

So, therefore, it seems to be a decision based on how can they minimise the total cost to them, effectively then? What takes precedence, their delays, the cost or available paths? I take it that means that a train could end up waiting for a very long time at a station when it is late, not because it needs to get dispatched quickly and catch up time, but because there are no paths available?
So, even if the service arrives in Weymouth on time or early, FGW still get a fine for every FTS and >3 minute delay at every station along the line? Are the charges for a delay a flat fee for any delay, or staggered (hence, could they stop at some stations and cancel others to minimise the cost)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamcoppard
I love Decision Maths

Presumably you didn't sit Decision Maths 1 on OCR's A-level course this year...

No, I didn't, although I did take a look at the paper after the news stories about it. I'm doing Edexcel's D1 and D2 (which is next week).

 

[tom3107]

Back in December it was about 8pm and in heavy snow, I was with some people and we got on a FCC train at Bedford to go to Flitwick which was supposed to leave at 7pm. The auto-announcer said it would stop at all stations to St Pancras. The doors then locked and the driver then announced we would be going to fast to St Pancras and we had no way of getting off. When we got to St Pancras there was just 1 EMT employee, no FCC staff there and she coped well with a train load of stressed people! The end result was we got home at about 1030pm and we wrote a letter to FCC enclosing ALL our tickets and we got a reply about 2 months later with a total of £1.50 between us in travel vouchers! We were not impressed at all!

 

[Firestarter]

On the other side of the fence platform staff can request for fast trains to make additional stops at stations it not due to stop at. Not sure if on-train crew can do this or not?

 

[broadbander]

I was waiting for the 15:03 Aston - Redditch London Midland service today. It arrived 14 mins late at Aston. When it reached New Street, they announced the train would terminate at Barnt Green due to it running late, and that we would have to wait a further 15 mins at Barnt Green for the next Redditch service.

I know this would be due to the section from Barnt Green to Redditch being single track, so a late running train will cause delays to the following service - but thought I'd post today's experience up.

 

[asylumxl]

Back in December it was about 8pm and in heavy snow, I was with some people and we got on a FCC train at Bedford to go to Flitwick which was supposed to leave at 7pm. The auto-announcer said it would stop at all stations to St Pancras. The doors then locked and the driver then announced we would be going to fast to St Pancras and we had no way of getting off. When we got to St Pancras there was just 1 EMT employee, no FCC staff there and she coped well with a train load of stressed people! The end result was we got home at about 1030pm and we wrote a letter to FCC enclosing ALL our tickets and we got a reply about 2 months later with a total of £1.50 between us in travel vouchers! We were not impressed at all!

I empathise with you! I and a shed load of other passengers were stuck at Bedford well over an hour late at night because the driver of our EMT service had forgotten he was supposed to stop at Luton. He started to slow, then must have realised he wasn't going to be able to stop so sped back up. Unfortunately for him there were quite a few EMT staff on the train whom were also going to Luton and wanted off.

 

[Crossover]

I was waiting for the 15:03 Aston - Redditch London Midland service today. It arrived 14 mins late at Aston. When it reached New Street, they announced the train would terminate at Barnt Green due to it running late, and that we would have to wait a further 15 mins at Barnt Green for the next Redditch service.

I know this would be due to the section from Barnt Green to Redditch being single track, so a late running train will cause delays to the following service - but thought I'd post today's experience up.

Agree with you 100% on that broadbander - I believe the headway (I hope thats the right word) on the Barnt Green-Redditch section is about 27 minutes (ie I believe the trains cross paths at Barnt Green within about 3 minutes of each other on a half hourly frequency) - so a 15 min delay on the one service would delay the next by 15 or so mins as well (in theory it would drop by a minute or so a service if all went OK).

I would expect then that that service would have sat at Barnt Green for a few minutes until its booked departure time from Barnt Green. 15 minutes isn't too long to wait, although if you were stuck at Alvechurch or Redditch it may be a tad more annoying.

 

[Failed Unit]

And of course that the train might end up too close to a faster train behind; if there are no overtaking opportunities this could jam things up more than a bit...


Presumably you didn't sit Decision Maths 1 on OCR's A-level course this year...

I have always wondered that myself.

Lets take the Edinburgh - Glasgow shuttle service, Scotrail love to miss stops because of short delays. Non-stop Haymarket from Glasgow very common.

A normal example,
1745 Glasgow - Edinburgh leaves at 1752 so it won't stop until Haymarket.

Meanwhile the 1748 Glasgow - Dunblane is ahead of and it stops everywherem if the 1745 doesn't get passed until Croy so it is now going to be nearly 15 minutes down, Now if it gets a free run to Polmont and doesn't get stuck behind a Dunblane - Edinburgh local. Next problem is Newbridge, it has lost its path so could get stuck behind a Bathgate. I don't think non-stopping will get it back on time, but I guess it will stop it getting later.

 

[Fred26]

On the other side of the fence platform staff can request for fast trains to make additional stops at stations it not due to stop at. Not sure if on-train crew can do this or not?

Anybody can make a request. If the request is ridiculous, Control will just laugh and hang up, in my experience. I try to ask only if I think I'm going to get somewhere.

 

[Failed Unit]

Anybody can make a request. If the request is ridiculous, Control will just laugh and hang up, in my experience. I try to ask only if I think I'm going to get somewhere.

I know a situation at Linlithgow when the ticket office made a request and it was accepted, the 1145 and 1215 Edinburgh - Glasgow were both cancelled, it wasn't until Linlithgow made the request was it decided the 1230 would stop additionally.

 

[Twoonthebuzzer]

As another quick aside, does anyone know what caused the delay in the first place, from the origin station, was it a similarly late service arriving for the turn around? It also appears to have been delayed on route, is this just an issue of paths available as it's late? I take it it's done on the principle of those on time get priority over those that are running late UNLESS there is a need to bring the late one to a suitable passing point?

The delay was due to a blanket 40mph speed restriction on the HoW line! ( from CLC to Dorchester ) due to the weather conditions!

Therefore all Weymouth trains were delayed by around half an hour! It all adds up!

FGW are a regular user of Not to Call orders! I frequently get these for the smaller stations when services are plus 15mins late!

The other way they do things is to terminate a delayed service en route and restart it further up as a 'Z' headcode in order to record it as arriving at it's destination on time!

 

[causton]

The delay was due to a blanket 40mph speed restriction on the HoW line! ( from CLC to Dorchester ) due to the weather conditions!

Therefore all Weymouth trains were delayed by around half an hour! It all adds up!

FGW are a regular user of Not to Call orders! I frequently get these for the smaller stations when services are plus 15mins late!

The other way they do things is to terminate a delayed service en route and restart it further up as a 'Z' headcode in order to record it as arriving at it's destination on time!

I have seen that on the live departure boards before... oh look, a train that runs from (example given, probably not exactly right) Hertford North to Moorgate terminated at Alexandra Palace instead, but a mysterious new service running later from Alexandra Palace into Moorgate! :P

 

[adamcoppard]

The delay was due to a blanket 40mph speed restriction on the HoW line! ( from CLC to Dorchester ) due to the weather conditions!

Well, you learn something new everyday! What part of the weather causes this restriction, and why?

I have similarly seen services suddenly 'become' something else.

 

[The Planner]

Heat speed.

 

[Mark_re]

I was on that train yesterday, and though most people had read the departure boards (and listened to the on train announcements), there were three sat next to me who wanted Bradford.

The conductor patiently explained that they would have to double-back at Westbury and they were quite content, if not particularly overjoyed. When we stopped at Bradford for about three minutes, either through a signal check or driver misreading the order, she didn't unlock the doors.

Now those three were furious. I understand why the doors weren't released, but still pretty galling. At Westbury there were about 20 who hadn't read the signs, all in various states of rage.

The poor conductor looked like she was about to throw in the towel. Schadenfreude all round!

Mark

 

[jaigee]

Last year it used to be quite regular occurence that when a LM Euston-Crewe was running late it ran direct from Stafford to Crewe missing out the Stoke loop.

Doesn't seem to happen much now, if at all.

 

[OuterDistant]

The only trip I've ever had on a Pacer was when we got turfed off a late running 323 that terminated short at Stockport and were crammed into a 142 to Piccadilly. It missed out stops at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme, and I had no choice but to stand on the bottom step by the door, where it says "do not stand here"!

 

[adamcoppard]

Hmm, what an interesting situation!

I'm glad the conductor explained the situation well. I suppose to those who aren't aware of the inner workings of the railway would find it a little bit strange if a train stopped, at a platform, for a length of time, and didn't open the doors! Is there something special about the length of line that has the speed restriction on it, or is it just due to the conditions over this part of the line as opposed to any further up it?

I can imagine people not being entirely happy! The way I was looking at it was that the stations were cancelled whilst the the train was between Bristol P.way and Bristol T.M. Does this mean that the on platform screens still show it as calling at stops that are cancelled, and thus, a manual announcement is required to override this information?

I also found this on google: Speed restrictions due to heat of rails. Is this essentially what's happening over here, just a little more extreme?

 

[northwichcat]

The only trip I've ever had on a Pacer was when we got turfed off a late running 323 that terminated short at Stockport and were crammed into a 142 to Piccadilly. It missed out stops at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme, and I had no choice but to stand on the bottom step by the door, where it says "do not stand here"!

Was it an empty Pacer at Stockport or was it a service from somewhere else you were crammed on to?

If it was the service from Chester then it wouldn't be timetabled to stop at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme. The service from Crewe leaving 9 minutes later would have called at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme.

If it was an empty Pacer then it probably wouldn't have had time to stop at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme without holding up a following service. The slower top speed and slower acceleration of a 142 compared to a 323 means a Pacer calling at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme needs to be given around 3 minutes longer to do Stockport-Manchester over a 323.

 

[gogogoadam]

I ocne caught a non stop service from Barry Island to Cardiff. It was late leaving Barry Island, but was on time by Cardiff Central, and so was able to from an on time departure to Merthyr.

As it was running at about 1800, there were more passengers for Merthyr than there were from Barry etc. Therefore, fewer people were inconvenienced overall by missing the stops than if the train had called, and there was another train ten minutes later for those passengers who were not picked up!

I've also been on a late FGW HST from Swansea to london, whcih called only at stations to Cardiff. Passengers for Newport, Bristol Parkway, Swindon and Reading were told to change at Cardiff. As a result, we got to London on time.

Good news for FGW as they didn't have to pay any penalties, less good for the non London passengers with reserved seats who then had to cram on a different service to get to where they wanted to go!

It does mean however that the passenger gets a full ticket refund for not having their reserved seat available! I actually prefer it when this happens, free journey time !!

Adam

 

[WelshBluebird]

As already mentioned, on the Valley Lines they tend to miss out stops / finish services early in the case of a serious delay. Not surprising because of the single line / short turn around times. However, I have also known trains to make additional stops (namely at Ninian Park for Cardiff City fans), so its not always bad .