PHILIPE
Veteran Member
GWR taking flak on Twitter Feed this morning re telling fibs yesterday in denying there were additional trains to Cardiff last night.
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Trains and the Rugby World Cup
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I'm accusing you of having a fairly consistent position on how FGW/GWR goes about things because of what you post here and on another forum - in both cases I have noticed precious little that is positive and much that is negative over a very long period.
That in a particular context here others are so hidebound by dogmatic positions that they view you as management's best mate is their problem. Not that you do much to change their minds by suggesting that finding staff to work special trains at dead of night is piffle.
It is not buck-passing to put the blame on the RWC organisers and TV - they are, fair and square, to blame for timings and the absurd situation that will arise on October 10 in Manchester with an England game the same night as the Super League grand final - though I expect that is actually the fault of the rugby league people for failing to communicate that their sport has held the same fixture in Manchester on the second Saturday of October since 1999, which nowadays usually attracts a gate around the 70,000 mark. But is of course a minority sport, only enjoyed by us northern types, so matters little...
The TOCs must be praying all 70,000 decide to go home straight after the match finishes - unlikely, given many have well-worn post-match routine of going into the city for a meal or drink before heading home on a late train - to give them a chance of handling the second surge in demand when 60,000 leave the City of Manchester Stadium a couple of hours later. Though I'm sure you will be available to tell the TOCs what to do to avoid being branded woeful by you.
If your opinions are based on available evidence, why do you keep ignoring the evidence that plenty has been done to accommodate rugby fans by GWR, ATW and XC in the face of a stream of games in Cardiff and Gloucester in just six days. The companies also have a duty to passengers other than those attending rugby matches as well - a good few of whom have already made clear their displeasure about trains being diverted/pinched/substituted/cancelled in order to accommodate rugby fans. But of course that's just more woefulness, because they should whistle up yet more trains from somewhere...
You seem very worried about Welsh rugby fans for some reason. What about all the England fans, who, as I pointed out, were no better off as a result of other TOCs' decision-making processes? Or is it perhaps that, despite your protestations, you do indeed have it in for GWR in particular and last night is a convenient stick to use?
You keep telling us they bend over backwards for festivals - even though I'm sure those stuck in queues at various places on an annual basis or squeezed into a Cotswold Line Turbo think otherwise - yet brush past my point about how this is being done, with the Cardiff half-hourly service axed to provide stock for such events on a regular basis - people in South Wales seems to find this woeful for some reason. On Wednesday this service, by a happy coincidence, provided a handy source of stock to move a lot of rugby fans on its normal route, in case you hadn't noticed - but no, an infinite number of extras, laid on with stock from who knows where, simply must be provided...
Yesterday's fumblings do GWR no credit at all, but if they had gone around ahead of last night's game saying "Going to England v Wales? GWR will get you home" then they would have been on a hiding to nothing from the off.
Either making lavish provision of extra trains - assuming they could get enough staff to volunteer to work them, presumably involving payment of substantial premiums on top of regular Sunday rates, oh sorry, that's piffle, isn't it? - only to find that no passengers turned up because they were staying in London anyway, went both ways on a coach or took the car all the way because there was no means to get home once dumped in Newport or Cardiff at dead of night - I suppose your next complaint will be that they should also have been running to Swansea in the wee small hours.
Or playing a conservative game and finding far more people turned up than expected - I"m sure you understand that this is far from an exact science, as others have pointed out - there weren't enough trains to move everyone and there was much late-night aggro at Paddington. At this point someone will no doubt pipe up about pre-booking and queuing systems and boarding controls - good luck with trying to enforce that and - again - finding the staff to operate it/BTP officers to deal with the inevitable 'issues'.
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LeylandLen makes a very good point. Regardless of who is in the quarter and semi finals the tickets have already been sold, and the RFU will know where the ticket holders live. If, however, Wales are in the QF there may or may not be thousands of fans who decide to go to the fan zones in Richmond and Isleworth, or just to the pubs in Twickenham; on the other hand if they are not in the QF they may all stay at home. Planning in advance for such contingencies is hopeless at this stage, and really the railway can only do the best it can at the time.
Were there issues last night at any of the main London terminus'?
Why would there have been been? The mild-mannered England fans appear to have meekly accepted there would not be streams of trains home from Kings Cross and Euston and made alternative arrangements, or left their cars at the likes of Banbury, Milton Keynes/Northampton and Peterborough, which was as far as late trains went.
Well Jimm said there was agro at Paddington or was he hypothesising an outcome that may have occurred if different circumstances were followed?
I'm critical of the handling of this one fixture, but you go all scattergun. Evidence that other TOCs have coped with other fixtures ( not withstanding GWR's problems at Bristol Parkway last week) is hardly relevant to the shambles GWR presided over yesterday.
I don't keep telling that TOCs bend over backwards for festivals. I said it once.
I'm not suggesting there be lavish provision. Just proactivity far ahead of the event. Advertised additional services that could have been booked. Planned ahead enough to get staff in place.
My perceived love in with FGW/GWR management was missing when I was prevented from travelling with a valid ticket. My supposed consistent criticism of FGW/GWR was missing in the positive reviews of on board services over many years. You are only seeing the negative because you want to use that as a stick to beat me with.
And if we're to bandy about accusations of stance toward a particular TOC, I have noticed precious little from you that is objective and much that is sycophancy toward FGW/GWR over a long period.
I'm glad we agree GWR did fumble last night. They needn't have done with foresight and planning. There doesn't have to be a can't do attitude. Although that is sometimes the default position.
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I said no such thing. I said that if they had advertised trains back to Wales last night, then tried to enforce a strict system of only people with reservations being allowed to board, to match the number of trains was provided - there might well have been aggro from those without a reservation demanding to travel anyway and getting stroppy when told they couldn't.
There was nothing at all exceptional about GWR's initial approach to what to do after this one fixture, which was in line with lots of other TOCs. However, presumably in the face of noise created by you and others in various places, they decided to be seen to be doing something, didn't do much of a job of it and created one big muddle. Other TOCs didn't do anything at all and stuck to their guns on not running anything but for some reason seem to have got off scot-free.
At least twice so far. Posts 255 and 292.
Once people get the idea in their heads that there are trains, no amount of trying to tell them there are only a limited number running, that they must book in advance, etc, etc, will get through to many of them, so they will turn up anyway and expect to be conveyed home, come what may. And get angry when told they won't be.
So this - from July - is you being only selectively critical, is it?
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15989.15
Whatever you say....
And was the default position of lots of other TOCs last night, so why are you just on GWR's back over it? Wouldn't have to do anything with your persistent negativity about GWR would it - Pullman dining excepted, a core component, of course, of everyone's travel experiences with the company...
People complain about how terrible the railways are with tedious regularity during such events. It was the same during the 1999 rugby world cup when the Millennium stadium had just opened - and the TOCs' crystal ball telling them what to expect in this new scenario had failed - in 2007 and again in 2012 when Olympic football matches were held - and if the figures in this old thread are anything to go by, demand at Cardiff last weekend was on an entirely unprecedented scale - but the crystal ball seems to have been broken again.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=69489
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OK. That makes sense. I wasn't sure. You may have said that but I read it both ways.
Oh get off your effing high horse.
The staff do is only 2 trains during the main part of the day when staff are easy to source, check RTT for Newbury Racecourse. But because the television lot want the game on in the late evening there is always going to be problems getting people home afterwards, try blaming the people responsible for this mess which are the rugby lot and the television lot.
Perhaps you can explain where they are going to get the staff to run all the extras needed after the game, what about the scheduled engineering work etc, you are so blinkered it is unreal sometimes! :roll:
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There are no trains any other night, it isn't the railways fault that the match is scheduled to finish when the last trains have gone is it!
Unfortunately the railways are not going to provide late trains and the rugby officials are not going to schedule the games earlier.
Thus I suggest people stay at home and don't venture out. Unless of course you live in Luton or Three Bridges or any of the handful of few stations outside London that have late night trains on a Saturday.
If no one else turned up to the games, perhaps the Ruby officials would get the point and reschedule. They don't want empty stadiums on TV.
Whenever I go to concerts in other cities, bar London, I tend to stay away. Make a weekend of it. If it's London I try to avoid gigs that finish late as I don't feel London being so close to Guildford justifies staying over night. Either that or I go to them only on a Sunday evening. By going on a Sunday I can get home from London if the gig finishes later. Not possible any other night of the week.
For example I went to see Paul McCartney at the O2 on a Sunday night because I wouldn't have to run across London to make the last train to Guildford. As it was I missed the time the last train would have left any other day of the week but didn't miss the last train on the Sunday (aka very early Monday morning).
Thus I suggest people stay at home and don't venture out. Unless of course you live in Luton or Three Bridges or any of the handful of few stations outside London that have late night trains on a Saturday.
If no one else turned up to the games, perhaps the Ruby officials would get the point and reschedule. They don't want empty stadiums on TV.
Whenever I go to concerts in other cities, bar London, I tend to stay away. Make a weekend of it. If it's London I try to avoid gigs that finish late as I don't feel London being so close to Guildford justifies staying over night. Either that or I go to them only on a Sunday evening. By going on a Sunday I can get home from London if the gig finishes later. Not possible any other night of the week.
For example I went to see Paul McCartney at the O2 on a Sunday night because I wouldn't have to run across London to make the last train to Guildford. As it was I missed the time the last train would have left any other day of the week but didn't miss the last train on the Sunday (aka very early Monday morning).
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Class 170101
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Liverpool Street does better on a Saturday night.
The last Intercity leaves Liverpool Street (for Norwich) at 23:30. Indeed it does this seven days a week.
The last Intercity leaves Liverpool Street (for Norwich) at 23:30. Indeed it does this seven days a week.
RTT checked. 6 STP services terminated at Newbury Racecourse yesterday.
Weekdays, 2323 RDG-SWA or 2330 PAD-CDF.
I have yet to see valid answers to the following questions:
1) Where will the stock for the 5-10 (or more) special services from PAD-CDF, or wherever, come from?
2) Where will GWR find the staff to crew the train, provide security and queueing, etc.? How do those staff get back home afterwards?
3) What paths will they run in?
4) How does GWR decide how many services to run without (a) massively overestimating and losing a pile of money, or (b) underestimating and getting it in the neck on Twitter?
1) Where will the stock for the 5-10 (or more) special services from PAD-CDF, or wherever, come from?
2) Where will GWR find the staff to crew the train, provide security and queueing, etc.? How do those staff get back home afterwards?
3) What paths will they run in?
4) How does GWR decide how many services to run without (a) massively overestimating and losing a pile of money, or (b) underestimating and getting it in the neck on Twitter?
4) could they run them as private charters, advance tickets only, so they know numbers. Being a private charter could charge as much as they like.
Indeed like the real GWR and BR WR used to do in the 50s. Every weekend, no vandalism no bother (those were the days).
Oh, it's 455 vs BNM now. 0-15. (455 serving).
I don't bother with him anymore, all he spouts is 'planning planning planning but unfortunately there are no staff with rostered hours that could work up to London to work back at stupid oclock and no amount of planning will change that, the chances of anyone (driver, guard, catering) volunteering to work a train full of ****ed up rugby players on their day off is practically zero, and certainly not reliable enough to advertise the services several weeks in advance.
Then of course there is the problem of how many would actually use the service, it might be only a few because everyone else is making a party of it or it might be a 1000 meaning they wont all get on the train leading to public order problems.
If BNM wants to work the train then fine get on with it, but his constant digs about staff not being flexible (or in his world militant) is well past being annoying.
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And you don't think several hundred others who were having such a good time they missed their official last trains wont try and gate crash them, after all its just another train going to where they want to go!
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BR used to do it, they kept quite a few BR1 bogied mark 1 coaches for the Merrymakers, day excursions, mystery tours, shopper specials, flower specials etc but the accountants got rid of them due to the 'costs' involved in storing them between use. :roll:
Oh and the travelling public are not quite so well behaved now!
You quoted me earliier this very evening.
Just as is done for Glastonbury, Cheltenham, Dawlish Air Show, Olympics... all I hear about last night is "can't do, can't do, can't do."
Sources for the constant digs about staff not being flexible in this instance please? 'Constant' remember, it's your word. The odd occasion doesn't qualify as 'constant'. Beside which my issue here is the lack of forward planning. There was more than enough time for services to be planned and rostered for.
Never used the word 'millitant' in this thread. The frontline staff are not the issue here. It is the management who I believe have dropped a bollock.
I suspect 455 you are conflating my opinion on other matters with this issue. You are of course free to get your digs in wherever you like. I prefer to keep discussion and my opinion on each issue in the relevant threads.
Oh deary me, they ran some Turbos between Reading and Newbury Racecourse so that the staff and families would not crowd out the regular passengers using the timetabled services to Newbury. Disgraceful...
PS: I see elsewhere http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=16250.150 that you are trying to put the CLPG charter to Tenby in the same bracket as the staff event trains, as opposed to services for your precious rugby fans - aka "farebox contributing passengers". Do you think GWR supplies the HST to the CLPG as an act of charity? It has to be paid for, by selling tickets to passengers.
And lots of planning has been down for the Rugby World Cup too - oh sorry, I forgot, you don't want to talk about all the extras run last weekend or last Wednesday and that will run for the other games at Cardiff. They don't count, do they? Same as other TOCs taking exactly the same attitude about what to do last night as GWR don't seem to count either for some reason.
For the 8pm kick off evening games surely the best and only thing a long distance TOC can do is advertise that no trains will be running to return fans home, rather than leave a lot of fans standing at the station(s). Afternoon and early evening games there is IMHO a stronger case for additional strengthening.
In the case of Twickenham last years autumn internationals including the Saturday night Soma game would have provided SWT and FGW/GWR with everything they needed to know around late night fan travelling. I can remember being on the full and standing 23:03 Reading to Bristol temple meads all stops service, which remained standing all the way to Temple meads having left passengers on the platform at Reading. Add another X thousand trying to get to south Wales and Network Rail would of had a major issue with fans trying to sleep at Reading. I suspect the two BRI services that night didn't provide enough capacity for all those intending to travel.
In the case of Twickenham last years autumn internationals including the Saturday night Soma game would have provided SWT and FGW/GWR with everything they needed to know around late night fan travelling. I can remember being on the full and standing 23:03 Reading to Bristol temple meads all stops service, which remained standing all the way to Temple meads having left passengers on the platform at Reading. Add another X thousand trying to get to south Wales and Network Rail would of had a major issue with fans trying to sleep at Reading. I suspect the two BRI services that night didn't provide enough capacity for all those intending to travel.
Doing as requested by 455. Looking at RTT. Noting there were 6 STP services, which meant more than the two trains used for the staff outing that he mentioned.
Apology accepted. Those runs were not without problems. And it rather negates your own argument using examples of when GWR did advertise and run additional services. On a weekday too when there is even less rolling stock to do much beyond the regular timetable.
WelshBluebird
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Regardless of if GWR should have run extra trains or not, I don't see how anyone can defend the misinformation that was going out during Saturday.
Oh and having been at the match I seriously doubt the 2% figure GWR have been banding around!
Wrong.
There was the 00:15 service to Northampton too, which was carrying quite a lot of passengers who had attended the game (I was one of them).
Oh and having been at the match I seriously doubt the 2% figure GWR have been banding around!
Wrong.
There was the 00:15 service to Northampton too, which was carrying quite a lot of passengers who had attended the game (I was one of them).
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EbbwJunction1
Established Member
This message was sent to me on Friday at 19.33:
"The 2015 Rugby World Cup runs throughout September and October at venues across the country, including:
•Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
•Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester
•Sandy Park, Exeter
•Twickenham Stadium, London
•Wembley Stadium, London
•Olympic Stadium, London
If you're travelling to, from or around any of these venues on match days, there are likely to be big crowds on trains and at stations.
Start your journey as early as possible to avoid the busiest services and give yourself plenty of time to get your train after the game.
Visit the dedicated section of our website or the official 2015 Rugby World Cup travel advice webpage to get all the information you need. It includes details of where and when the matches are taking place, and tips for avoiding the crowds.
Visit our World Cup travel guide.
You can get real time Travel Updates on our website, or download our free mobile app to stay up to date on the move. And don't forget to follow us on Twitter @GWRHelp for live updates, 24/7."
It sounds pretty sensible to me, although I do wonder why I didn't receive it before the start of the competition!
"The 2015 Rugby World Cup runs throughout September and October at venues across the country, including:
•Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
•Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester
•Sandy Park, Exeter
•Twickenham Stadium, London
•Wembley Stadium, London
•Olympic Stadium, London
If you're travelling to, from or around any of these venues on match days, there are likely to be big crowds on trains and at stations.
Start your journey as early as possible to avoid the busiest services and give yourself plenty of time to get your train after the game.
Visit the dedicated section of our website or the official 2015 Rugby World Cup travel advice webpage to get all the information you need. It includes details of where and when the matches are taking place, and tips for avoiding the crowds.
Visit our World Cup travel guide.
You can get real time Travel Updates on our website, or download our free mobile app to stay up to date on the move. And don't forget to follow us on Twitter @GWRHelp for live updates, 24/7."
It sounds pretty sensible to me, although I do wonder why I didn't receive it before the start of the competition!
"GWR fleeces rugby fans by running expensive PRIVATE TRAIN instead of putting on proper extra service"
WelshBluebird
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One thing I will say is very well done to whoever organised the shuttle buses from Twickeham to Hounslow. Worked very well, took around 40 minutes from when we started queuing to when I jumped on a tube train and seemed to be quite organised. Not sure if it was the RFU, World Rugby or SWT sorting it all out but whoever it was deserves credit. Much quicker than the wait at Twickenham station last time I was at a match there.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
They have to. They haven't suitable stock of their own available.
They have existed for a few years now, well after the match anyway. Probably not at the same frequency, but run by London United, from Twickenham to Hounslow Bus Station (for Hounslow East).
For the RWC they have been using Hounslow Central instead, which has a single staircase to an island platform, and no step-free access, unlike Hounslow East with the separate platforms. And the buses cause long tailbacks while they load and unload
, whereas Hounslow Bus Station is off the main road (but the pavement to the station is very narrow).--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also think about using SWT via Hounslow, whether boarding at Twickenham or at Hounslow, but the last train that way (Mon-Sat, doesn't run Sun) leaves Twickenham at 2147 (which is 2201 from Hounslow). And Hounslow towards London Mon-Sat after the 2201 is 2216, 2246 and 2316, while Sun the 1tph is 2135, 2235 and 2335!
And trying to drive along the M4 through Newport before and after the matches in Cardiff wasn't without problems those days either - so what?
Doesn't negate my argument in any way. Those games did not finish at 10pm, miles from an FGW station. On the Wednesday, six of the 10 extras were operated using hired-in stock from Riviera and DB locos, so no impact on any other services. Chances are a tweak in maintenance scheduling allowed for the other four to be laid on.
Oh dear, I missed one. But there still weren't any long-distance trains out of Euston, Marylebone, St Pancras or Kings Cross late on Saturday night. Same as usual. FGW runs 22.35 and 23.30 to Bristol as a matter of course.
It's still getting worse PR wise for GWR. I don't know why GWR is getting all the flack but it is.
http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/...ailway-boss/story-27883843-detail/story.html?
Did anyone observe the goings on at Gloucester?
http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/...ailway-boss/story-27883843-detail/story.html?
Did anyone observe the goings on at Gloucester?
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