Training steam drivers?

[E&W Lucas]

I'm not skilled in any way but I used to be allowed to drive a 'Live Steam' model as a teen so I'll start things off with:

Water management in the boiler. If you let the crown of the firebox become uncovered you have what is now potentially a very large bomb on your hands. Even if you don't kill anyone you have very likely taken the locomotive out of service for years due to damage to the firebox crown. However if you mistime topping the boiler up with water you can reduce steam production because you are adding cold water to hot, which leads to less power, which you might need.

This is what can happen:

Look at this video. It shows what happens when an inexperienced crew overfills the boiler, then allows wheelslip to develop, followed by mishandling the Regulator so water is carried over into the Regulator Valve ('priming'), meaning that the Regulator couldn't be closed. When the driver tried to bring the Reverser into Neutral to deal with this that in turn ran away into full forward gear, injuring him. The engine was then stuck in a full forward power wheelslip until the cylinders and motion all came apart.

https://youtu.be/YjsNbzg1UaI

Finally, get it wrong with the fire and the Regulator (or a few other things wrong) when going under a bridge or into a tunnel and you can get a 'Blowback'. Its a bit like what firefighters call a 'flashover' and can fill the cab with flames. The consequences can be very serious, In 1965 Driver Wallace Arnold Oakes received the George Cross posthumously after he received fatal burns whilst remaining at his post to close the Regulator and apply the brake to bring his express passenger train to a stand after a blowback.

PS: More qualified people, please comment!

I don't know where to start with that, but you've half understood and mixed up practically everything you've said.

What I will correct is that Dvr Oakes was driving a loco that suffered a burst pipe union to the steam brake valve in the cab. This is an approx. one inch pipe, that will spew boiler pressure steam into the cab. The regulator valve was found open, as he couldn't get near it to shut it. RIP.

 

[sbt]

I don't know where to start with that, but you've half understood and mixed up practically everything you've said.

What I will correct is that Dvr Oakes was driving a loco that suffered a burst pipe union to the steam brake valve in the cab. This is an approx. one inch pipe, that will spew boiler pressure steam into the cab. The regulator valve was found open, as he couldn't get near it to shut it. RIP.

After double checking my sources I believe I am correct on the Dvr Oakes part. I think you are mixing him up with Dvr John Axon who received a posthumous GC in 1957 under exactly the circumstances you describe.

Here is the official announcement of the award for Wallace Oakes

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/43793/supplement/9767/data.pdf

and the one for John Axon

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/41062/supplement/2723/data.pdf

I was going to delete the rest, since you seem to believe it is worthless, but since you have quoted my post in its entirety there seems to be no point.

 

[E&W Lucas]

After double checking my sources I believe I am correct on the Dvr Oakes part. I think you are mixing him up with Dvr John Axon who received a posthumous GC in 1957 under exactly the circumstances you describe.

Here is the official announcement of the award for Wallace Oakes

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/43793/supplement/9767/data.pdf

and the one for John Axon

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/41062/supplement/2723/data.pdf

I was going to delete the rest, since you seem to believe it is worthless, but since you have quoted my post in its entirety there seems to be no point.

I'm more than happy to be corrected on the historical details.
Both stories show wonderfully how different steam traction is to that used on today's railway, without needing to go into the intricacies of why. For the purposes of this discussion, they are an excellent illustration.

 

[redbutton]

Perhaps I oversimplified when I said 'conversion' I didn't mean it would be simple or quick. I know it takes years of experience on the footplate before going anywhere near the regulator. My point was that learning to drive a steam engine and being competent to drive it on the main line are two completely separate things.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Steam and modern traction are literally, poles apart. While the idea that any train driver could drive a steam loco, I think the the reality is vastly different. When you think about what you have going through your mind as you barrel along at speed with modern traction and then compare that to the extra things you have to consider with steam, it must be mind blowing. I would compare it to flying a light aircraft.

A good mate of mine has his PPL and I have been on quite a few flights with him. The amount of work he has to do is phenomenal and I would genuinely compare it to crewing a steam loco. The poor sod never gets a moment to look out of the window and enjoy the view, as it is all go. And he does it for pleasure!

 

[dysonsphere]

Steam and modern traction are literally, poles apart. While the idea that any train driver could drive a steam loco, I think the the reality is vastly different. When you think about what you have going through your mind as you barrel along at speed with modern traction and then compare that to the extra things you have to consider with steam, it must be mind blowing. I would compare it to flying a light aircraft.

A good mate of mine has his PPL and I have been on quite a few flights with him. The amount of work he has to do is phenomenal and I would genuinely compare it to crewing a steam loco. The poor sod never gets a moment to look out of the window and enjoy the view, as it is all go. And he does it for pleasure!

Quite and I have a PPL as well and agree with you. its a permant scan of panel + also trying to watch the sky all around you. Talk on radio etc all at same time.

 

[Tracky]

In terms of where you find mainline drivers I feel the only sensible aproach is to take drivers who do the job as a profession and a day job, but who also drive on heritage railways. There are a fair few.

Perhaps the way forward may for A charter operator to sub contract them from other TOCs formally, rather than the hap hazard rest day working secondary employment arrangements which are frowned upon.

Either that, or West Coast could start to offer full time permanent contracts with good terms and recognise ASLEF and the RMT.

 

[mtbox]

Steam and modern traction are literally, poles apart. While the idea that any train driver could drive a steam loco, I think the the reality is vastly different. When you think about what you have going through your mind as you barrel along at speed with modern traction and then compare that to the extra things you have to consider with steam, it must be mind blowing. I would compare it to flying a light aircraft.

A good mate of mine has his PPL and I have been on quite a few flights with him. The amount of work he has to do is phenomenal and I would genuinely compare it to crewing a steam loco. The poor sod never gets a moment to look out of the window and enjoy the view, as it is all go. And he does it for pleasure!

That is one way of putting it.

I would liken it to driving your car to the shops, compared to driving a full on single seat race car round a race track, on the pace. It really is that different. You also need to have a lot of mechanical knowledge in order to completely understand how and why a steam locomotive operates. You only need very basic mechanical knowledge to learn to drive modern traction, whatever it is.

 

[notadriver]

I suppose the closest road equivalent to a steam locomotive would be something like a traction engine? People who own those things must have a fair idea of how a steam loco would work.

 

[sbt]

Going to stick my head above the parapet again and try and go beyond the illustrations of the extra workload to suggest (those with far better knowledge than me please correct/amend/improve - I want to know to!) where the extra workload comes from:

A Steam driver, in addition to the tasks and awareness required on modern traction, is doing the following extra things:

• Operating a Steam Generating Plant.
• Maintaining a safety watch on a stored source of energy every bit as objectively dangerous as Traction Current but with a wider 'area of effect' if it lets loose.
• Maintaining awareness of many small safety 'traps' with large consequences that are engineered out in modern systems[1] and taking action to mitigate them[2].
• Assessing likely power demands ahead of time and adjusting steam production and managing the fire, together with his Fireman, to ensure that neither to much or to little of it is available when needed. This includes allowing for the fact that opening and closing the Regulator causes changes in the behaviour of the fire and thus steam production.
• Balancing regulator and reverser settings to provide the required power whilst maximising efficiency.
• Mitigating a reduced view of the line (compared to modern traction).
• Handling the impact of a less comfortable (and sometimes actively uncomfortable) working environment.

[1]e.g. Reversers that can move of their own accord, including from forward to reverse, unless positively latched by a non-automatic action on the part of the driver. This led to the death, by crushing, of a Guard on the NYMR in 2012.

[2]e.g. Ensuring that the Blower is on full and the Firebox Doors closed when entering tunnels in order to avoid Blowback.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Water level, water level, water level. Did I mention that you never take your eye off the water level in the boiler?
The level indicated is influenced and distorted by gradients and the regulator, so the skill is knowing what is actually there, despite what the glass shows, and how future changes in the above variables will affect it.
You cannot learn this skill from a book.

Also visibility. Limited by looking along the side of a boiler/ tender. You cannot see round an opposite curve, eg LH drive loco, right hand bend. This shocks most modern loco crews who first encounter it. You're driving blind much of the time.

Due to both of the above, route knowledge is even more vital. I do know steam, and I wouldn't drive or conduct it over the routes that I sign, as I do not know them from the perspective of a steam loco.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In terms of where you find mainline drivers I feel the only sensible aproach is to take drivers who do the job as a profession and a day job, but who also drive on heritage railways. There are a fair few.

Perhaps the way forward may for A charter operator to sub contract them from other TOCs formally, rather than the hap hazard rest day working secondary employment arrangements which are frowned upon.

Take the PPL analogy a stage further, as it's a good one. The preserved railway driver, is like the chap flying a light aircraft on his day off. The mainline driver is like the commercial pilot, flying a multi - engine jet. To take a steam loco out on the mainline, you need to be the equivalent of the BBMF guys on flying the Lancaster, or the (ex) RAF pilots of the Vulcan.

Either that, or West Coast could start to offer full time permanent contracts with good terms and recognise ASLEF and the RMT.

You're thinking, but.....

You can count the number of preserved railways that work the locos hard enough to provide a meaningful grounding on the fingers of one hand. Yes, they have "produced" a fair number of BR drivers, but I reckon you're talking between 30 - 50. Probably the lower number.

Such drivers would still need a serious increase in their steam proficiency. You cannot learn to work to mainline standards on a preserved railway. How many times do we need to say this?
I've got EVL steam competence. (for as long as the day job lets me do it). There is no way I would take a steam loco beyond that, without a serious amount of firing at the higher level.

A common viewpoint, amongst such BR drivers - steam is our hobby, driving on the main line pays the mortgage. Never the twain shall meet. That's without considering the views of our main employer, Union, etc.

You don't leave a secure, pensioned, regular job with a TOC, losing your travel perks, etc., to work for a fringe charter operator, performing high risk tasks like tamper conducting at night, when you're not working charters.

Take the PPL analogy a stage further, as it is a good one. The preserved railway driver, is the chap flying light aircraft, under considerable restrictions, on his day off.
The mainline driver is the commercial or military pilot, flying jets day in, day out.
The mainline steam driver needs to be the equivalent of the RAF or ex RAF guys flying the Lancaster or the Vulcan.

 

[Tracky]

You've mixed quotes, could you sort that out please.

 

[infobleep]

Water level, water level, water level. Did I mention that you never take your eye off the water level in the boiler?
The level indicated is influenced and distorted by gradients and the regulator, so the skill is knowing what is actually there, despite what the glass shows, and how future changes in the above variables will affect it.
You cannot learn this skill from a book.

Also visibility. Limited by looking along the side of a boiler/ tender. You cannot see round an opposite curve, eg LH drive loco, right hand bend. This shocks most modern loco crews who first encounter it. You're driving blind much of the time.

Due to both of the above, route knowledge is even more vital. I do know steam, and I wouldn't drive or conduct it over the routes that I sign, as I do not know them from the perspective of a steam loco.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You're thinking, but.....

You can count the number of preserved railways that work the locos hard enough to provide a meaningful grounding on the fingers of one hand. Yes, they have "produced" a fair number of BR drivers, but I reckon you're talking between 30 - 50. Probably the lower number.

Such drivers would still need a serious increase in their steam proficiency. You cannot learn to work to mainline standards on a preserved railway. How many times do we need to say this?
I've got EVL steam competence. (for as long as the day job lets me do it). There is no way I would take a steam loco beyond that, without a serious amount of firing at the higher level.

A common viewpoint, amongst such BR drivers - steam is our hobby, driving on the main line pays the mortgage. Never the twain shall meet. That's without considering the views of our main employer, Union, etc.

You don't leave a secure, pensioned, regular job with a TOC, losing your travel perks, etc., to work for a fringe charter operator, performing high risk tasks like tamper conducting at night, when you're not working charters.

Take the PPL analogy a stage further, as it is a good one. The preserved railway driver, is the chap flying light aircraft, under considerable restrictions, on his day off.
The mainline driver is the commercial or military pilot, flying jets day in, day out.
The mainline steam driver needs to be the equivalent of the RAF or ex RAF guys flying the Lancaster or the Vulcan.

Bruce Dickinson, the Iron Maiden lead singer got his commercial pilots licence so it is possible for people outside of an industry to train to do something else. You need a lot of money and spare time of course.

If some preserved railways could run their trains faster, would that help give any more experience? After all running at higher speeds is different to lower speeds in terms of knowing how long you have to do things.

 

[E&W Lucas]

If some preserved railways could run their trains faster, would that help give any more experience? After all running at higher speeds is different to lower speeds in terms of knowing how long you have to do things.

Would still be for a very short distance (in railway terms), and over a very simple stretch of line, so not really. Preserved railways are great, but they are not, and never can be, the real thing.
Mainline competency still has to be the core.

As a professional, I wouldn't be tempted to try and bypass any part of the learning process. Interest or ego doesn't come into it.

 

[Tracky]

My suggestion in a previous and misquoted post was...

...that, mainline steam drivers have to come from mainline drivers, (qualified in rules and regs and experienced in day to day mainline operations) who have an interest in steam and ideally have worked with steam in their spare time on heritage railways.

To achieve this, there are a couple of options.

One is a specialist open access operator could sub contract them from their TOCs and FOCs at a rate which will ensure their release from the TOCs.

Another is a specialist open access operator offering them full time fixed term employment which may be expensive but some drivers are willing to go to smaller companies and are not always motivated my money. WSMR and Grand Central started out as indipendant companies and many staff were tempted over and took the risk based on the different working environment, some even influenced by the traction.

I do feel that offering national route coverage may have to go in favour of developing core routes and increasing frequency.

 

[D1009]

I do feel that offering national route coverage may have to go in favour of developing core routes and increasing frequency.

Not sure exactly what you mean by that, are you saying operators could be restricted in some way on the number of routes on which they operate?

 

[Tracky]

Not sure exactly what you mean by that, are you saying operators could be restricted in some way on the number of routes on which they operate?

I am saying that operators should restrict themselves (and work with promoters to create programmes) to only operate over routes with sufficient traffic to ensure their drives, firemen, and guards can maintain a high standard of route knowledge.

 

[D1009]

I'm not sure a company operating in that way would be viable.

 

[Tracky]

Well if a method cannot be developed for drivers with sufficient route knowledge who are qualified to mainline standards and have adequate route knowledge to continue to mainline steam it will come to an end.

Let's hope Scotrail can take the business risk to take on full time steam drivers for the West Highland services. And possible Chiltern for the Shakespeare express.