Trainee Train Driver advice please.

[andreww1978]

Hi,

I started trainee train driving with a TOC that I'll keep nameless, 2 years ago. After 3 very different DIs telling me 3 different ways of doing the same thing, I obviously did not pass the initial assessment after the hours with DIs.

I was told by unhelpful management that I had 6 weeks to look for another job in the company. Obviously that didn't happen but in that time I did apply for another TOC, for trainee driving.

That was in December, and after 2 emails I've only heard that they have had over the estimated 4000 applicants and they go through a process of letting those with the least points know they've failed first while keeping everyone else on until they "fill the courses".

However, I have not changed the application since I sent it to TOC 2. It shows that I'm still working for TOC 1.

I really want to job with TOC 2, as it's local and I know I can do it. But I also know I need to change the application form too. Thing is I don't want that change to affect my chances!

I need to put reason for leaving (resigned, sacked etc), I also have to write a reason why I left. Here's where I am stuck because putting in that I was messed around by TOC 1 and having 3 confusing DIs may come across as a huge negative.

Please can someone offer advice on what to do.

Thanks.

 

[ComUtoR]

I need to put reason for leaving (resigned, sacked etc), I also have to write a reason why I left. Here's where I am stuck because putting in that I was messed around by TOC 1 and having 3 confusing DIs may come across as a huge negative.

It would appear that you are blaming someone else for your own failings. Keep it simple. The reason for leaving was that you did not pass the assessment and meet the required standard.

Your current TOC will state something similar to the new TOC anyway.

If you get an interview then you can explain the situation and give your thoughts. Personally I would take ownership of the failure and use it as a learning lesson and move forward. Taking responsibility will be the best thing you can and should do. Let the new TOC know you have learned from the experience.

 

[andreww1978]

It would appear that you are blaming someone else for your own failings. Keep it simple. The reason for leaving was that you did not pass the assessment and meet the required standard.

Your current TOC will state something similar to the new TOC anyway.

If you get an interview then you can explain the situation and give your thoughts. Personally I would take ownership of the failure and use it as a learning lesson and move forward. Taking responsibility will be the best thing you can and should do. Let the new TOC know you have learned from the experience.

Thanks for your reply.

When I'm told by each DI that the previous one or two were wrong on numerous things, that lead to confusion. I understand it was me that did not pass the assessment, but they didn't help.

I will think on your point too though.

Just to be clear, I have no current TOC as the time to look for other employment within that company expired a few months back.

 

[ComUtoR]

I will think on your point too though.

Part of what they are looking for is that ability to accept responsibility. Whoever you apply to will get your file from your previous TOC. I doubt they would treat you like a new Trainee as you have already gone through the process.

How you departed your previous TOC and what they supply in terms of references etc. is crucial.

How you enter a new TOC will also be critical. If you go in as an existing trainee you may just get a training needs analysis and complete some hours under DI and then assessment. Hopefully that will be all. If you go in and restart the whole process you need to treat that as a positive and use it to your advantage. You already have rules/traction so are in a position where you would cement that knowledge further. Driving you have an advantage too as you already have the skills and may just need them sharpening or given more time to meet the standard.

Treat everything with a positive attitude and use it to your advantage.

Good luck with it all.

 

[andreww1978]

Thank you very much for your help and advice. It seems like you know what you're talking about

 

[E&W Lucas]

So you've failed a full driving assessment, but there has been no plan to provide corrective training, and have a second look at you?
That's unusual, but not unknown if it isn't felt that a trainee will make the grade.
Did you ask for advice and support from the Union?
You can't hide this failure. There will have to be a transfer of your records to any other TOC.
Realistically, you have failed a driver training process. It's not for you. Sorry, I know it's not what you want to hear. I've never heard of a failed trainee being given a second chance elsewhere. Good luck in whatever direction your life takes you in future.

 

[BestWestern]

I would suggest, respectfully, that it may well be beneficial to look at other roles for the time being, perhaps elsewhere within the railway, and revisit your driving aspriations a little later on. Realistically, unless somehow your first TOC are renowned for abysmal training or some other significant failing, it's unlikely that another TOC will be willing to expend the substantial investment of a training course on a candidate who wasn't successful with it elsewhere in the recent past.


I would consider your best chance of driving with 'TOC2' to be as an internal applicant already employed with them in another role. Do they have Guards? Try that, or something like dispatch or perhaps a job within their control centre, or station manager etc. Give that route some consideration, I think it may well be your best shot.

 

[andreww1978]

I have heard of and know other drivers who have failed with other TOCs abs gone on to become drivers on the second attempt with a second TOC.
One failed with SWT and works now for Southern and the other failed with Southeastern and now works for London Overground.

 

[455driver]

Hi,

I started trainee train driving with a TOC that I'll keep nameless, 2 years ago. After 3 very different DIs telling me 3 different ways of doing the same thing, I obviously did not pass the initial assessment after the hours with DIs.

I had 3 different DIs and managed to pass so that shouldnt have been an issue, there are more than one way of doing things and I found having the different DIs was very useful for learning how to do the same thing in different ways.

Maybe it is simply that you are not driver material, not everyone is suited to it, in fact there were 2 who didnt get through the training on my course, one was offered a Guards role and the other was shown the exit, both were the correct decisions.

 

[455driver]

Realistically, you have failed a driver training process. It's not for you. Sorry, I know it's not what you want to hear.

I agree, horrible I know but what people forget is the recruitment tests are nothing to do with being able to drive a train, they are only to see if you have the ability to learn quickly during your rules training.

I've never heard of a failed trainee being given a second chance elsewhere. Good luck in whatever direction your life takes you in future.

I have once and it was the same TOC, I will PM you the details.

 

[BestWestern]

I have heard of and know other drivers who have failed with other TOCs abs gone on to become drivers on the second attempt with a second TOC.
One failed with SWT and works now for Southern and the other failed with Southeastern and now works for London Overground.

Did both or either of these candidates complete a full training schedule and fail right at the end? Each case is unique, of course.

 

[andreww1978]

Did both or either of these candidates complete a full training schedule and fail right at the end? Each case is unique, of course.

Yes they did.

I will just await an email from TOC 2 which I'm still in with a chance of getting a positive one. Then be fully and openly honest with them at any interview that may follow.

 

[SPADTrap]

When you say 'After 3 very different DIs telling me 3 different ways of doing the same thing' what do you mean? Becuase having different takes on the same thing should be a positive, it helped me when I was a trainee driver. How come you couldn't get on with it? Good luck with your future decisions.

 

[andreww1978]

When you say 'After 3 very different DIs telling me 3 different ways of doing the same thing' what do you mean? Becuase having different takes on the same thing should be a positive, it helped me when I was a trainee driver. How come you couldn't get on with it? Good luck with your future decisions.

I can understand that. But virtually DI 2 rubbished what DI 1 has done and DI 3 rubbished everything and told me that everything I'd learned before was crap and that only his way was right.

Didn't exactly inspire confidence.

 

[whoosh]

At what stage did you swap DI's? How many hours?

How many hours had you done when you went for your final assessment? What areas did you fail on? Did you only have one final assessment?

 

[Camden]

If it was the case that the OP was told three different things, and executed the task according to what he was told on the last set of instructions (which is how I read this), then that doesn't reflect negatively on his ability to learn.

Where ownership does come into it, though, is that when faced with conflicting advice it's important to secure authoritative clarity, and the OP didn't do that. I would say that is the lesson to learn from that, as had he secured authoritative clarity when presented with the first conflicting advice this wouldn't have happened.

I don't think it's for anyone on here to tell others not to pursue a career choice.

With regards to the initial application, if the OP was working for the company at the time the application was put in then it was correct at the time of application. It's not the OP's fault that the recruitment process takes so long, and of course peoples' circumstances do change over time. Is there anything in the terms of the application that states you must keep it up to date? If not, then is the change material to the application to the extent it would rule the OP out from getting an interview? I don't believe it would, where those decisions are instead made on the strength of the application and the candidate's performance in testing.

I would absolutely disclose the fact in conversation during the interview when inevitably asked about my 'current' job, "Unfortunately I didn't pass training and was unable to secure another position within the company in time, so I've left the organisation since I put my application in for this position". On the positive side, it also means there is no notice period, and the lessons learned can also be spoken about (not to mention that the OP has the benefit of already having had some training).

 

[E&W Lucas]

There seems to be a split between the drivers commenting on this, and those offering more generic thoughts.

We might be reading between the lines of what we've been told, viz:

- Same route, same traction, same rules, same driving policy. There isn't that much difference between three drivers. Not on the essentials anyway.
- An instructor knows when his trainee isn't progressing. You get someone else to take a look; you just don't tell the trainee the reason, obviously.
- There has to be a process to fairly remove those who are failing to progress. They are a liability. A manager will do a ride with them. Sounds like that has happened in this case?
- Some trainees just can't "put it all together" in the handling phase. Practically everyone passes the classroom bit. There's no amount of training that can correct this.

There are other careers on the railway, and I know people who've not proved to be cut out for driving, that have gone on to do well in such.

 

[Camden]

Of course a key skill is also basing decisions on facts, rather than presumptions.

Going off what the OP has said, there's no basis to jump to the conclusion that he's incapable or that what he has stated didn't unfold as he has stated, nor any basis to tell him to not bother pursuing his choice of career. Without knowing the OP, his circumstances, the company, etc, etc, etc, there's no basis for doing anything other than taking his words at face value.

I don't believe the OP asked for anyone's opinion as to whether he should be a driver or not, but only asked what people thought he should do in respect of updating his ongoing application. If the company he's applied to don't want to offer him a job, I'm sure they're capable of deciding for themselves, and I'm sure he'd rather find that out from them rather than just give up on the say so of someone on the net. In the end, the company involved might not agree with you, after all.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Of course a key skill is also basing decisions on facts, rather than presumptions.

Going off what the OP has said, there's no basis to jump to the conclusion that he's incapable

He's been removed from the training following an assessment. For those of us that know how these processes work, that's evidence enough, as there will have to be plenty of the documented variety to justify such a decision, and to terminate employment.

No one can stop him applying for a job, but it might be more sensible to advise him to devote his energies to securing another career.

 

[Camden]

You can and have discouraged him from pursuing a career option, and in pretty blunt terms.

Your "advice" is advice he never asked for. By that yardstick, perhaps you might be "advised" to stick to train driving, and leave the career advice to others.

It's not for you to "advise" anyone to not pursue a career path on the basis of your pre-judgement about them and their circumstances. It's not up to you, and the company themselves are quite capable of saying Yes or No without you filtering applications for them. While your "No" might put someone off from going through with their application, if they did decided to withdraw it might simultaneously for all you know have been a Yes from the company. The only Yes or No that counts.

Fingers crossed for the OP the company says Yes, however even if it is a No then I expect he would rather try and find that out himself than regret forever not trying.

 

[ComUtoR]

You can and have discouraged him from pursuing a career option, and in pretty blunt terms.

I don't think it comes from anything other than an honest response to someone who hasn't made the required standard.

Rightly or wrongly a TOC can, and often will, prevent a Trainee from progressing further. That decision isn't taken lightly. As I posted in another thread, it is worse when you pass as a Driver and then removed from the role. Removing a Trainee at this level is often very much the right decision. I had a message from a fellow forumite about failures and TOC's and I truly wish more TOC's were like theirs but many aren't.

It is heartbreaking and I wish the OP success in whatever he chooses and whatever path he takes but he must also consider if this is a career for him.

It would be remiss of anyone not to offer an alternative. False hope is just as bad advise.

I know a few who failed at this level and they are very happy in their other roles and are carving out a successful career elsewhere.

Personally I would apply for another Trainee Driver role but I would absolutely be realistic about my chances and certainly consider if I was suitable after failing the assessment.

As a recruiting TOC where is this potential employee placed. New starter or part qualified ? At what part of the process do you put them and do you take a candidate who did not achieve the standard in the required time given ?

The old TOC will share his record and their reasons why he did not meet the required standard. If there is a conflict in what that reason was then there will be an issue.

Being open and honest as well as accepting the responsibility is the only way I see as the best course of action.

100% apply but please consider alternatives.

 

[andreww1978]

I will await the reply from TOC 2.

I did change my application unfortunately before reading this. I had to put "dismissed" in the drop down box and that "I did not pass the assessment and meet the standard" as the reason. Kinda wish these latest replies had come in first.

But I also changed other bits too promoting what I can do and that I learn from mistakes made.

Also I've been on the railway over 10 years and have applications going in to other places on it - but I don't want them for various reasons.

Also I do know of at least one other person who failed his assessment on the same TOC 1 and applied for the same TOC 2 that I did and still drives for them now - for a couple of years now.

 

[Lucky63]

I will await the reply from TOC 2.

I did change my application unfortunately before reading this. I had to put "dismissed" in the drop down box and that "I did not pass the assessment and meet the standard" as the reason. Kinda wish these latest replies had come in first.

im sure they'll send you their apologies for not replying sooner.
Seriously, the highlighted above shows to me you do not have the required mentality to be a driver.

I wish you all the luck to pursue this career with TOC 2 as it is an incredible job to have, but I think you need to readjust your mentality to succeed.

 

[andreww1978]

You're basing my mentality to be a driver on a few appreciative words?

 

[Economist]

I'm aware that some TOCs mandate a change of DI part-way through the training so that a trainee doesn't simply do everything the way one DI taught it.

I think if the OP trained with a company that has such a policy, it may be possible to argue in an application that it was not the train driving itself which caused problems but the required adjustment, in this case, to the training styles of three different DIs. Whether this would work or not I have absolutely no idea.

I'd like to think that if one DI went so far as to "rubbish" what another DI had taught, the trainee concerned would seek a quiet chat with their union rep and possibly their DM.

 

[andreww1978]

Very sadly, I bought it up with the DM a few times. But he didn't want to know.
I even wrote a list of things that were concerns of mine and they again did not want to know.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'd like to think that if one DI went so far as to "rubbish" what another DI had taught, the trainee concerned would seek a quiet chat with their union rep and possibly their DM.

The first step should be to discuss it with the DI involved. The DI/Trainee relationship is very important and you should have a relationship based on trust and mutual respect. Part of that is having the ability to challenge the DI on what they say and to have that ability to be more than just a robot repeating instructions blindly.

My TOC is one that switches instructors and I have come to realise that this is a good thing. A Trainee needs that ability to adapt and to learn more things. When a new DI teaches you something different, it isn't to rubbish what the previous DI said but a different way to achieve the same goal. One of the reasons why we switch DI's now is that you get a more rounded Driver at the end of it. They have a range of skills rather than one instructors method.

For me, a third DI says a few different things. It can often be that a Trainee isn't meeting the standard and is struggling to learn so they need a different instructor.

Some Trainees don't get on with their instructors so need to change for personal reasons.

Some TOC's, as you day, switch deliberately and may even be in a situation where a Trainee has switched due to 'operational reasons'

We have a few Trainees at my place who have had multiple instructors; for whatever reason. They all have passed.

Only the Trainee knows the reasons why they don't make it through the process. That is where the decision to continue comes in. If it's a case of, I was close but.. then yeah go for it again or with another TOC. I think deep down everyone knows if they should or shouldn't continue.

My TOC has daily DI/Trainee paperwork. It provides a full written record of what has happened during training. That record will stay with you. The paper trail should go to a new employee; especially if you are part way through the process.

Please remember that, at least at my TOC, the decision to take that initial assessment is by agreement only. Both DI/Trainee and DM need to agree and sign the paperwork before the assessment takes place.

I would advise any Trainee to keep a good record of what happens during their training and that should they find themselves in such a situations as Andrews they need to get it resolved before continuing.

 

[Economist]

Good point there, going straight to a DM without taking it up with the DI concerned first would likely damage trust. I didn't make it clear enough in my first post that a trainee should only go to their DM if all reasonable attempts to resolve the differences with their DI had failed. I assumed that a situation where DIs were rubbishing each other had got past that point.

I don't know if it's the same with other TOCs but we do daily and weekly reports (both trainee and DI) which get logged. Presumably, any concerns could be written down on those, in a diplomatic way of course, discussing the points of concern rather than people.

 

[Camden]

I will await the reply from TOC 2.

I did change my application unfortunately before reading this. I had to put "dismissed" in the drop down box and that "I did not pass the assessment and meet the standard" as the reason. Kinda wish these latest replies had come in first.

Never mind, it's a situation where you are caught between two actions and neither is the wrong one.

Good luck with TOC 2.

 

[Cambus731]

I've been following this post and I sympathise with the OP so much.
I am tempted to name the TOC and especially tempted to name the DI so much.
Back in 2005/6 I reached the driving stage of driver training, but at the eleventh hour my DI was changed beofre my driving started. I was hoping it would be this nice jovial chap who I got on with very well but I was assigned someone else who was new to Minder Driving. Then while I was away with my gf (now ex) I received a call from the depot telling me that my instructor had been changed (for no aparant reason). The Man who was my instructor had the most appalling way of speaking to me and it was obvious that his mind had been poisoined against me by his son who I had the misfortune to work with in a different department of the TOC. Her was extremely brash and not encouraging in the slightest. His methods were appalling. Maybe some people can respond positively to being spoken to like that by a trainer but his way of speaking to me and being on my case the whole time was terrible.
for instance there was an occasion when we were held at a red protecting a diverging junction. When the light changed to a single yellow I instinctively went "ah right and was about to move, then I noticed that the feathers were wrong so I wasn't going to proceed. Before I had the chance to say anything he was right on my back saying that I was bout to take the train down the wrong route. I told him quite truthfully that I wasn't. And I was just about to say that. But he point blank refused to believe me and put it in the log. There was at least one other occassion when I was just about to respond to something that very second, and he barked at me and said I shouldn't have to tell you by now to do that. He damn well didn't. I was just that very second doing it. but of course he refused to believe me. I was hoping that I would maybe I would be offered a change of DI, but I never was. On the odd occasion he wasn't available I drove with a different instructor and I felt I could relax, take on board their encouragement and not feel uptight about doing anything a little out of the unusual. But when I was back with my regular DI, he was so unfriendly that I always felt nervous and my confidence drained. Right at the end I did a few days with an acting depot manager and he was such a nice bloke and full of encouragement that I drove perfectly and full of confidence and knew that I was ready. He said that he couldn't fault my train driving.
So just when I was under the impression that I was about to do my part C I was called into a meeting and told that I wasn't going to be put into my Part C as my DI had said that I wasn't concentrating while driving. Well that I'm afraid to say was utter fiction. I was ready and I had no trouble concentrating while driving at all. There was no option of appeal and that was that. I was given another job on the TOC at a much lower salary than I was on before I commence Driver Training and at a much further distance from my home so that i had to get the 0445 train for my early shifts. Thankfully I was only there for four months as I was successful at landing a job at another office where I have been now for 11 years and I am happy to work at. Unfortunately I'm not in a financial position to apply for a trainee driver jb at another location or TOC as I'm not in a financial position to move home let alone get by on trainee driver money for a year or so. At the time one of the drivers at that depot said to me "We all think its wrong that you should miss out just because you didn't particularly get on with P**l. That acting manager who came out with me towards the end of my driving said it was rubbish what they had said and if I applied for a trainee driver position with another TOC he would give me a good reference. I was intending to but soon after my gf got pregnant and that blew anything like that out of the water due to circumstance I'd rather not go into on here. Just in case anyone thinks I'm in denial I am not.
A year or two later I bumped into a Driving instructor from a different depot within the TO and he said to me "That **** from C*******e had in in for you from the start, If you ever re-apply I'll put in a good word for you" I'm not normally the sort of person to take pleasure from someone else's misfortune but when his son (who is an obnoxious smarmy person as well) took up train driving and failed, I thought it really was poetic justice. I understand that the TOC now has changed things so that a Trainee does 120 hours with one DI then 120 with another to sop this sort of thing happening. I still absolutely 100% believe that if I had a different DI, then I would be driving trains now. Maybe some day in the future, I'll have another go.
So I do sympathise with the OP as things like this do happen. I am so tempted to name the TOC, the depot and especially the DI as I absolutely utterly 100% beleive he was the one reason why I'm not now.
driving trains.
I can at least draw consolation that my lovely daughter wouldn't have been born now if things had gone differently, as she is so bubbly and lovely and of course if things had gone differently she wouldn't exist.