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Do many fail the courses?
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Trainee Driver Learning Structure
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People fail or quit at various points in the process to become a Driver. It lessens at each point.
Sift - Loads
Assessment/OPC - Still about 80-90% failure rate
MMI - Not many drop here and its minimal but regular posters about failure suggests it may be quite high overall.
DMI - Surprisingly quite high still. I'd like to say most make it through but there is a shocking % who don't. I've seen many internals not make the DMI part.
PTS - I've never heard anyone failing PTS. It probably happens but I would say that's rare.
Rules - Not that high and we lose a couple every few courses. Probably average about 1 for every 3 courses.
Traction - Minimal. You do get a couple and there are a few traction questions that are instant failure but nowdays that the part of the course that is more casual and relaxed and they have gone through rules with you and have a strong desire for you to pass. Traction is very interactive with the Trainers and personally I feel that help out more at this stage.
Driving hours - We lose a few here too but again its minimal. I find that more quit at this stage than are pushed. We just lost one at my place who decided that it wasn't the career for him.
Initial assessment - It's a point where you don't request the assessment without being ready. Therefore you get minimal failures. The easy thing to remember is to not request the assessment till both you AND your Instructor agree. The last one we lost at this stage was some time ago.
Now here's the **** part.
We lose people due to other reasons that failure at each assessment/module. We lose employees through Drugs/Alcohol, Attendance, Attitudes, Incidents and we have even lost one recently due to social media policy.
With the entire course you have to remember that you may be good at rules but you can't do the manual handling part. You may be able to do both but still fail the assessment standards and role and responsibility part. You must take the entire process as a whole.
The worst....
We lose new Drivers way to much. A few gone at my depot this year.
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On my course of 10, 2 didn't get through. 1 person failed traction, and the other failed his final twice. At our TOC people not getting through their final 5 day assessment is a fairly regular occurance, not being good enough in the simulator or making a critical mistake on the actual driving appear to be the 2 main reasons. Occasionally people also don't end up becoming productive because they have been unable to learn the routes after passing their final. Thankfully this is rare. The fact is certainly at my TOC you really have to put the work in, and perhaps have a bit of luck along the way. We were told at the start of our course that on average 1 in 7 don't get through the course.
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I would like to add that the driver training as a whole from day 1 to becoming productive (16 months) was the hardest thing I've ever done. That is taking into account my degree and also my career in the military. I think for the driver training you certainly have to be good academically ie the raw ability to learn and study, but also good practically, good judgement of speed and distance, and concentration. For me the studying came naturally, as does the concentration aspect, but practicality it took me a long time to grasp the skill of stopping trains at stations etc. I was good enough to pass, however I know it doesn't come naturally to me - I'm never going to be the most skilful driver. Certainly throughout the course I put a lot of pressure on myself, and one bit of advice I'd give is to be a bit more chilled than I was. It certainly was a case of poor wife, and poor instructor at times!
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Best advice I can give (been fully fledged for 2 months now) is take everything one step at a time. Don't try getting too far ahead of yourself. This goes for learning the rules in a classroom and learning the routes. At first, it may dawn on you that there's a LOT more information to absorb that you first thought and this may panic you. Just keep taking things slowly and make sure it's all going in.
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Rules and Traction are two very different beasts, I personally found Rules much easier. It's more structured for a start and the quality of the handouts is far better, plus I find written exams easier than a largely verbal assessment.
I got high 90's and above throughout all of my Rules exams bar one, which was low 90's. On Traction at my place you have three days' worth of assessments in a row and they only give you a pass/fail at the end. You could fail at the start of the first day and they won't tell you.
I got high 90's and above throughout all of my Rules exams bar one, which was low 90's. On Traction at my place you have three days' worth of assessments in a row and they only give you a pass/fail at the end. You could fail at the start of the first day and they won't tell you.
VWCampervanman
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We had someone in our group fail at PTS And he was sent home, At the time I thought it was harsh, but knowing know what was to come, I can see that it was the right decision.
There was no way that he would have been able to cope with the rules course .
I personally find it challenging, I have been out of education and the classroom environment for well over 20 years , so the basic act of writing reams and reams of notes and remembering them is a shock to the system .
The group ahead of us lost one person during rules, and the group running in parallel to us has also lost one .
When I was offered the job , I naively thought that it was a certainty that I would become a qualified driver , but after every assessment I spend a couple of agonising hours waiting to hear if I still have a job, thats the reality .
There are no second chances , a lot of people want these jobs and it only takes 1 poor exam to bring the journey to an end...
It is a risk, I gave up a fairly well paid job for this opportunity, If I fail to make it to the end, well at least I tried, and I have definitely given it my best effort .
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VWCampervanman
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I'm not going to say which TOC, but it is one of the ones that required an advanced score in the assessment stage of the recruitment process. from what I've heard it's not unusual practice.
Before I applied I did some research on the assesment stages and what it took to actually get the trainee driver job.Reading about such a high failure rate at assesments,large rooms of people,dwindled down to a couple left at the end of the day.
I honestly thought that the assesments were made ridiculously tough to sift out the thousands that apply for these sought after jobs.
Now I'm sure how wrong I was.From reading hours and hours of posts from this site during the last year or so,I've learnt that if your lucky enough to get the job,then is when the real hard work starts.
I start training next month,I have 4 more days to work in my present job.I picked up my p60 yesterday showing just short of 44k.After I leave my job there's no going back.
So I'm going to do absolutely everything I have to do to get through the training and become a driver.
I honestly thought that the assesments were made ridiculously tough to sift out the thousands that apply for these sought after jobs.
Now I'm sure how wrong I was.From reading hours and hours of posts from this site during the last year or so,I've learnt that if your lucky enough to get the job,then is when the real hard work starts.
I start training next month,I have 4 more days to work in my present job.I picked up my p60 yesterday showing just short of 44k.After I leave my job there's no going back.
So I'm going to do absolutely everything I have to do to get through the training and become a driver.
Yes the real work definitely starts when you embark on the training. It's a long and stressful 12-18 months, there is no getting around that. However it is definitely worth it when you pass, get on a roster and start doing the job you've worked so hard for. Not to mention the big pay rise 
.
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After what he states, you still think its harsh ?
Those who have been on any course where someone fails realise quite quickly the reasons why and understand why they get removed. As VW States, he can understand being removed on PTS because he is going through rules and knows how much of a jump it is.
Nobody should take it for granted and everyone should believe the reality of a job loss at any stage. Those that bemoan the assessment day and decry it as not unrealistic for the job really need to stop and think.
At my TOC there is a workbook post rules. After 10 weeks you go back again and retest and they asses and review your workbook.
The testing NEVER stops. On your initial assessments you go through EVERYTHING again. The PTS course is a distant memory and rules have more than started to leak away. People drop here because of the rules and knowledge fade just as much as practical handling.
I get a full driving assessment every 2 years with various interim assessments in-between. I am expected to maintain my competence forever. No exception. They know that a high level of competence needs to be maintained. If you cant do that in the first year, then how do you expect to achieve a high standard after 2yrs ?
It ain't harsh. It's fair and understandable.
Never take it for granted that you will become a Driver. Your journeys have only just begun.
I wish everyone well. Work hard and respect the job you do.
Usually you will get offered a second chance to sit a particular assessment, but that tends to make it less likely you'd be offered any more second chances further along the course. Certainly at my TOC before your 5 day final, the assessor looks through your training file ie marks in assessments, notes made by your manual handling instructor. I really do get the feeling that if you have aced assessments, demonstrated a professional attitude throughout the course your assessor during the final is more likely to give you an easier ride (or not go out of their way to make it difficult) ie not ask as many hard questions, go slightly easier on you in the simulator etc etc. If you are the kind of person who they would like to have out there driving trains, they are more likely to pass you in the final. A professional, positive attitude is deemed just as important as your technical competencies.
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I agree, you get what you put in, but not all learn at the same pace , the few at ours got put back to another course, that what I meant over the harshness , so quick to scare monger on here , yes it's tough I know I've just done it
I think it's been discussed before. How many times is too many ? At what point does the cost become prohibitive ?
If you can't pass first time then questions do need to be asked. Remember what we do is safety critical and we have a train load of passengers under our responsibility. It can never be a case of; Sorry, I forgot. I'll try better next time.
The courses are designed to take someone with zero knowledge and there is plenty of resources at your disposal so there should be no reason for failure. It really can be a case where those who fail should not be a Driver or can clearly not cope with the high standard that is required.
How many times can you fail. Generally the TOC will give you a second go if your close but there is certainly no entitlement to another try. The system is designed to be fair across the board and if others can manage then why should someone else be given multiple attempts ? If you do fail then it is a question of can you manage the next step in the training. It doesn't get easier. They also need to plan for the future. Would you allow someone who failed multiple times to drive a train, maintain their competence, and continue with many many driving assessments in the future ?
Its very hard to justify the cost too. The TOC cannot continue to invest weeks and potentially months of re-training for someone who would most likely fail a second attempt.
On my rules course there was someone who was on his second course. He passed and went into the Driver Manager grade. It can be done. But conversely there was someone who was given a 4th attempt and he failed each time. My Traction had someone on their second and he failed again. The investment into those failures cost the TOC and wasted the candidates time and caused a lot of needless stress.
Don't get me wrong; I'd support a second attempt but not a blanket second go for all and certainly not multiple attempts. The Trainers and Assessors at each level know what is expected and know those would could potentially succeed and those who just wouldn't. Trust that those responsible for the TOC training know what they are doing.
Totally agree. Your previous history comes into play. The ones who don't make it past initial assessment tend to have second attempts along the way.
Scaremongering is not how I mean it. The vast majority get through for sure
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It's not scaremongering. It's the reality. For some, it hits them square in the face. Its not all sunshine and smiles. Why hide that fact ?
Someone asked about failure rates. People fail all the time and many for the tiniest, most pedantic of reasons. Those facts should not be dismissed as scaremongering.
djsmith200
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great post guys, has anyone got a link to info regarding training etc and what it involves?
Because they don't make it beyond their first year.
Rules, traction , manual handling is only the start of your careers. I get the impression from many new Drivers that they think this job it easy or just treat it quite casually. You guys and gals have to remember that none of the assessments, training, competencies, etc will ever stop. We are monitored extremely closely and to an 'nth degree.
Let's be frank (not scaremongering ffs) You are at your highest risk of incident within your first year. The statistics are against you in every way. New Drivers have incidents. Some, more than one.
Don't let your standards drop, work hard, keep focussed and remain vigilant at all times.
Where do they go ? Back to the Job Centre.
Rules, traction , manual handling is only the start of your careers. I get the impression from many new Drivers that they think this job it easy or just treat it quite casually. You guys and gals have to remember that none of the assessments, training, competencies, etc will ever stop. We are monitored extremely closely and to an 'nth degree.
Let's be frank (not scaremongering ffs) You are at your highest risk of incident within your first year. The statistics are against you in every way. New Drivers have incidents. Some, more than one.
Don't let your standards drop, work hard, keep focussed and remain vigilant at all times.
Where do they go ? Back to the Job Centre.
Traction entails a 4 week core traction course on a specific class of train, depending on what your TOC has. This will consist normally of the following:
- Layout of internal and external equipment
- Names of each coach
- what equipment you have on each coach and how they work
- Isolating cocks both internal and external
- Rules associated with DOTE (Defective on Train Equipment)
- Fault finding
- Emergency equipment
- Brake handling with instructor
Depending on which TOC your with this would normally consist of half day classroom and half day practical with assessments each week to ensure your retaining the knowledge. After core traction for 4 weeks then you will be converted onto other units, normally a shorter course.
There maybe other elements involved but these are the main to give you an idea.
Hope this helps
Hi DJ
Some useful free resources here which will give you an idea what it involves.
http://www.uktrainingsolutions.com
Heard some good feedback on this site, only used PTS module myself but it was thorough and helped me alot. Cant speak for the others modules but its free.
Not all TOC's will get rid of you during training. Not all TOC's have a once chance/second chance policy. So try not to fret too much. Find out what your TOC's policy is on passes and find out their typical pass rates if applicable.
Remember that forums provide generic advice and generic information. Each TOC runs a similar scheme with the same information but often you find that their courses are quite bespoke. Try and find out how your course is run and where you would be based to learn rules/traction/manual handling.
These are very much questions people should be asking in their DMI's
With training you need to invest a lot of time and effort into it. Those that don't get through at my TOC certainly fail more due to lack of effort and poor attitude towards training than any lack of aptitude.
It is a strange situation to find yourself in during your autumn years. Going back to the classroom isn't easy but you should have the life skills to get you through. Adult learners are generally more invested and more goal orientated. Use your experience to your benefit and pace yourself for a year to eighteen months of solid hard work.
The courses are designed to take someone with zero knowledge and turn them into a Train Driver. Your tutors are there to help, your Managers are there to help, your instructor is there to help, your colleagues will also help you. You are never alone on a course and never be afraid to ask for help.
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