Train vs. Plane Debate

[hiddeneurope]

I have noticed how much the air versus rail competition debate in Britain is fuelled by misinformation. There is a splendid example of this in the press release yesterday by Emerald Media on behalf of a new start-up airline called Varsity Express, which proposes to fly from Oxford to Edinburgh.

They suggest that the rock bottom cheapest possible return rail fare (so an Advance with all the restrictions and the early booking requirement that go along with that) is 223 pounds. And there suggest that the cheapest possible unrestricted return from Oxford to Edinburgh is 311 pounds. They seem not to noticed that the regular off-peak return (direct route via Leamington Spa) is 110.80 – and, if I recall correctly, can actually be used on any train.

Today’s UK media have picked up on the story, with news agencies and papers quoting those rail prices as if they were true. Varsity Express says their cheapest fares on their air route will be ‘from 98 return’ and more flexible fares will be ‘from 298 return’. By misrepresenting the real cost of rail travel, they have invited folk to believe that Varsity Express will now be by far the cheapest way of travelling from central Scotland to Oxford.

More on this at http://www.hiddeneurope.co.uk/varsity-express.

It is surely important that the rail lobby confronts and challenges rogue PR agencies and airlines.

Nicky

 

[Metroland]

The public are not that daft, the proof is in the passenger numbers. Manchester-London now 80% of the market for rail. London - Liverpool flights withdrawn, London - Leeds flights withdrawn for a short time, London- Tees Valley flights withdrawn for a while. Rail share has also grown from London-Scotland. In fact domestic flights have been in decline for a number of years.

They did try Cambridge-Oxford flights and they were withdrawn within a week, at £298 I suspect they won't last long. Businessmen that want to save time these days usually go for video conferencing and E-business anyway.

 

[theblackwatch]

Even travelling to or from Europe the train can be quite competitive if you book in advance. I am going to Europe in April, outward my flight from Leeds-Bradford to Dusseldorf was £42 (including fees). Coming back from Brussels to Leeds, the train fare was £58.50, booked on the day the tickets went on sale. Good value in my view, and that's coming from someone in Yorkshire!

 

[jopsuk]

This is what they're using.

Oxford "Airport" (Or "London Oxford Airport" as they now prefer) is a glorified airfield some distance outside the city with no public transport links- though I guess as this is a business-orientated service the taxi fare isn't such an issue.

The issue is, as you say, the rampant distortion. Where did they get those fares?

 

[Oswyntail]

......
It is surely important that the rail lobby confronts and challenges rogue PR agencies and airlines. ...

Totally agree, but:-
1) That presupposes that there is a consistent rail lobby that is prepared to stand up and be counted. Not much evidence of that. Where were the "Rail is succeeding more than other transport" in teh recent snow period. ATOC where are you.
2) They must have the right tools, and that includes a clear and open fare structure. Rail is just as guilty as anyone of headline cheap fares (available only to those travelling with their Mexican great uncle) or of referring anyone with a non-standard journey to rules and regulations so Byzantine that entire websites can be devoted to discussion about what is permitted and when
Rail has an excellent product. It just needs shouting about and selling.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Blackwatch, I can usually get Leeds-Bradford to Dusseldorf for £13, but it costs another €70 or so for the train from Dusseldorf to Munich, whereas I can do Munich-London for €49 and another £13 for London-Leeds

 

[glynn80]

Totally agree, but:-
1) That presupposes that there is a consistent rail lobby that is prepared to stand up and be counted. Not much evidence of that. Where were the "Rail is succeeding more than other transport" in teh recent snow period. ATOC where are you.

You say that but as far as I can tell, recently, ATOC has been extremely efficient in responding to various claims that damage the interests of their members.

Here is a list of a few of their recent rebuttals (http://www.atoc-comms.org/dynamic/a...&to[1]=01&to[2]=2010&withinLast=-1&doSearch=1)

The reason they probably haven't replied to this particular story, is that the story is garnering pretty low level publicity and doesn't really warrant any kind of official response. Any counter-claims by ATOC would only further publicise the company and as they say "any publicity is good publicity".

 

[Oswyntail]

There is a world of difference between responding and issuing a press release. Too often you hear the excuse that "the media are not really interested" - but then you make them interested, and keep them interested. I really do not know what ATOC are doing (other than issuing some fairly standard, if interesting, press releases) but it aint working. Look at the way Branson keeps Virgin in the media eye, even with non-stories. Or, more pertinently, how Chris Green was forever in the media pushing the idea and success of Network SouthEast.

 

[Ascot]

2 different types of domestic flight passenger. One is to provide a connection to another flight e.g. Glasgow to London to Las Vegas. The other is end to end flight e.g. Glasgow to London and walk off.

Connecting flights a no brainier you can't get rid of it.

Now the basic domestic flight use Glasgow to London since Virgin have spent enough on trying to compete. I can get into London City at 08:03 leaving at 06:44. In before the first Virgin and I can spend the night with the family. Yes I can use Wi-Fi on train and yes I can buy a Cheese Burger. Why do I want to do that when I can go straight into London for a 9am meeting without too much travelling and Greenpeace can go protest on another Oil Rig after the coldest winter for years.

Oxford Airport is a GREAT idea. Business jets fly in, helicopter straight into London Battersea. Perfect and very cheap compared to nearby Airports.

 

[theblackwatch]

Blackwatch, I can usually get Leeds-Bradford to Dusseldorf for £13, but it costs another €70 or so for the train from Dusseldorf to Munich, whereas I can do Munich-London for €49 and another £13 for London-Leeds

The flights were 99p each for 2 of us, and £19.99 for the third (as there were only 2 available at 99p) - then had to add on all the 'optional' charges of checking in online, booking and card fees, baggage fee (I cannot manage hand luggage for over a week. And to get those rates, we had to book last October.

 

[paul1609]

The public are not that daft, the proof is in the passenger numbers. Manchester-London now 80% of the market for rail. London - Liverpool flights withdrawn, London - Leeds flights withdrawn for a short time, London- Tees Valley flights withdrawn for a while. Rail share has also grown from London-Scotland. In fact domestic flights have been in decline for a number of years.

.

Out of interest what is the London-Manchester market that rail has an 80% share of?
If for instance the market was for passenger journeys from Greater Manchester to Greater London I would expect road to have a much bigger than 20% share.

 

[Failed Unit]

Out of interest what is the London-Manchester market that rail has an 80% share of?
If for instance the market was for passenger journeys from Greater Manchester to Greater London I would expect road to have a much bigger than 20% share.

I think it only covers journeys by public transport, you are right if you included journeys by any form of transport and I would be very surprised if the car wasn't king.

As for Train -v- Plane the debate is old, it depends where you are going from an too. Brighton - Bolton will probably be quicker by plane even if you use the train to get to Gatwick airport and from Manchester Airport. However Westminster - Holyrood can be done quicker by train as you don't waste as much time travelling to / from airports in this example.

Many people in Scotland don't look as rail as an option as they feel it is too slow, others prefer out by sleeper back by normal service so they can do some work.

 

[route:oxford]

I have noticed how much the air versus rail competition debate in Britain is fuelled by misinformation. There is a splendid example of this in the press release yesterday by Emerald Media on behalf of a new start-up airline called Varsity Express, which proposes to fly from Oxford to Edinburgh.

They suggest that the rock bottom cheapest possible return rail fare (so an Advance with all the restrictions and the early booking requirement that go along with that) is 223 pounds. And there suggest that the cheapest possible unrestricted return from Oxford to Edinburgh is 311 pounds. They seem not to noticed that the regular off-peak return (direct route via Leamington Spa) is 110.80 – and, if I recall correctly, can actually be used on any train.

Today’s UK media have picked up on the story, with news agencies and papers quoting those rail prices as if they were true. Varsity Express says their cheapest fares on their air route will be ‘from 98 return’ and more flexible fares will be ‘from 298 return’. By misrepresenting the real cost of rail travel, they have invited folk to believe that Varsity Express will now be by far the cheapest way of travelling from central Scotland to Oxford.

More on this at http://www.hiddeneurope.co.uk/varsity-express.

It is surely important that the rail lobby confronts and challenges rogue PR agencies and airlines.

Nicky

Great news. I'll be having a shot of that. London Oxford Airport is really easy to get to

Back in the last decade, it was possible to get from Oxford Station to Haymarket or Glasgow Central in about 5h15m No changes, no hassle.

Nowadays, a change at Birmingham, Wolverhampton or Newcastle is required - not much effort but a lot of hassle and a planned "just in case" break in case of missing the service with a booked seat.

 

[Metroland]

Out of interest what is the London-Manchester market that rail has an 80% share of?
If for instance the market was for passenger journeys from Greater Manchester to Greater London I would expect road to have a much bigger than 20% share.

Air/rail split as that's what we are talking about. I don't have the figures for road, although I would expect city-city to be fairly modest, with more travel in between suburban areas.

The DfT gave interurban mode shares for London-North West, for the early 2000s, before the introduction of the new Virgin service.

This was: Car 46%, Rail 40%, Air 8%, Coach 5% and other 1%.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedtwo/highspeedtwo.pdf

P19

Since VHF, Virgin say

'Total growth in passenger numbers is 15 percent. Growth has continued through the year, despite the difficult economic situation, in marked contrast to airlines and other long-distance rail operators. The share of the rail/air market on the Manchester/London route is over 80 percent, and on Glasgow/London has doubled to 17 percent as customers have switched away from domestic air travel and turned to trains instead.'

http://mediaroom.virgintrains.co.uk/2009/12/virgin-trains-delivers-its-vhf-promises.html

 

[The Planner]

London Oxford Airport, thats sounds like Ryanair fly into the place !!. Like it has already been said, its a glorified airfield on the outskirts of Kidlington with delusions of grandeur !!

 

[paul1609]

So according to those figures rails share of the rail/air market for the early 2000s was 40/48= 83 1/3% and after VHF is over 80% for Manchester.
If rail only has 17% of the Glasgow-London market its a very small market based on 83% representing 18 planes at an average of 200 seats. 3600 if air is full.
737 rail passengers a day?
This means that the hourly service and £9 billion upgrade has attracted an additional 360 passengers a day.
Am I missing something or is it all just spin?

 

[Ascot]

London Oxford Airport, thats sounds like Ryanair fly into the place !!. Like it has already been said, its a glorified airfield on the outskirts of Kidlington with delusions of grandeur !!

I personally think it's brilliant. Why pay the prices of Biggin Hill or Northolt when you can land at Oxford?

 

[Metroland]

So according to those figures rails share of the rail/air market for the early 2000s was 40/48= 83 1/3% and after VHF is over 80% for Manchester.
If rail only has 17% of the Glasgow-London market its a very small market based on 83% representing 18 planes at an average of 200 seats. 3600 if air is full.
737 rail passengers a day?
This means that the hourly service and £9 billion upgrade has attracted an additional 360 passengers a day.
Am I missing something or is it all just spin?

Quite clearly all WCML passengers aren't going from Glasgow Central to London Euston are they, in fact a very small proportion? Even on trains running from Glasgow to Euston, many will be getting on and off at intermediate stops. Everywhere south of Preston the Railways have killed the airlines like they generally do with a fast, frequent, well priced alternatives under 300-400 miles. There's also passengers and freight to be gained from road.

You are either Trolling again or acting an idiot, and I don't believe the latter.

 

[paul1609]

Not trolling at all. Just pointing out that the Virgin figures are at best irrelevant at worst misleading.
AS to your claims that the railways are killing off the domestic airlines there are still 16 scheduled flights a day each way between London and Manchester by my reckoning thats both south of Preston and "under 300 to 400 miles"- last time I travelled southbound the flight was full on a late saturday night hardly peak business travel. Im next flying north on Saturday for the Manchester meet and I reckon the flight wont be empty then either.

 

[Metroland]

Yep, but as you well know they are mostly hub and spoke passengers flying to London get flights elsewhere, which aren't served from Manchester.

I think the point of the Virgin figures is there has been significant gain from air, but in reality the air market is tiny, and is only really significant over the London-Scotland stretch in any case where it's slightly quicker city-city than rail.

You know very well the money on the WCML upgrade was not spent for that one tiny flow and was a rather straw man argument if I may say so.

 

[jon0844]

I fly a lot, but with airport security, take off/landing, no phone usage, limited room for a laptop (unless you pay first class, in which case forget those cheap fares), the wait for bags, transfers and passport control (okay, not the latter within the UK) and suddenly a longer train journey is quite appealing.

I also like the freedom on a train, and the more I fly the more I start to wonder if I'm really increasing my chances of something bad happening.. something I never really fear on a train.

The cost of flying will only rise as oil gets more expensive, so this is a debate that will ultimately side with rail regardless - even for longer distances. Flying, for those who want cheap fares, may ultimately only really be viable for long-haul.. unless we develop planes that use significantly less fuel.

Not that this will happen overnight of course.. it may well be 30, 40 or 50 years. Ironically, it could be 20 years or more before we get another high-speed line, let alone a lot more HS services to offer an alternative to grossly overpriced flights.

Ryanair is already feeling the pinch and having to keep prices low by adding in costs for almost anything - so only a handful of people/routes will get cheap deals, and only at certain times, and only if you don't carry on bags, pay with the right card, check in at the right time... what will they be thinking of over the next ten years?

 

[merlodlliw]

Passengers in North Wales (well some of them) have a choice Anglesey to Cardiff via two highly subsidised means.

1. Rail WAG EXPRESS Five Hours

2. WAG AIR. Less than an hour

Nether of these services would run without multi £M aid.

So you takes your pick, With the new WAG franchise out to tender
for larger aircraft, the majority it seems from Anglesey
prefer to fly for the same price or less.

An isolated instance,but worth a mention.

M