Train vs. Car

[MichaelJP59]

As I sit on the EC 07.29 Retford to Leeds stationary just outside Wakefield, the train is yet again delayed. I reckon it's on time about 50% of my daily trips, so not sure where the official reliability forecasts come from.

Today we're 25 minutes late due to a bridge strike by a lorry near Doncaster. A good reason and I have no doubt that everyone has worked hard to get services running again. I did make me think though the nature of rail delays.

I have the choice of car or train. On a good day, they both take around an hour. I choose the train because I can read or work on the way. It does seem that even if the delay to the train starts off with a few minutes, almost without fail that delay compounds itself and is exacerbated en route. It seems there is no slack in the system and once delayed slightly, missed slots and platform assignments, or following a slower train mean that lost time can never be recovered.

Contrast that with the car, where if I am delayed, once through the bottleneck the rest of the journey will usually be the same duration.

Oh well, just some thoughts on a drizzly Monday morning.

 

[ainsworth74]

Well I was all ready to mount an impassioned defence of the service whilst using data to back up my argument. However, having looked last week the service was pretty dire.

Friday: On Time
Thursday: 2 Late
Wednesday: 9 Late
Tuesday: 14 Late
Monday: 6 Late

Whilst only one of those was technically 'late' by the industry definition of lateness (10 minutes or more for long distance services) I personally would consider that train late three days last week which is pretty bad. Suggests that something isn't quite working with the timetable for that service...

 

[O L Leigh]

I would hardly call that "dire". The duration of a car journey of that distance could easily vary by up to 10 minutes or so depending on conditions, whereas a rail journey is (or at least should be) entirely predictable in terms of it's duration, right down to the minute.

O L Leigh

 

[Moonshot]

Well I was all ready to mount an impassioned defence of the service whilst using data to back up my argument. However, having looked last week the service was pretty dire.

Friday: On Time
Thursday: 2 Late
Wednesday: 9 Late
Tuesday: 14 Late
Monday: 6 Late

Whilst only one of those was technically 'late' by the industry definition of lateness (10 minutes or more for long distance services) I personally would consider that train late three days last week which is pretty bad. Suggests that something isn't quite working with the timetable for that service...

I do know that the timetable planning for ECML was fraught with difficulties last time round.....and it took the personal efforts of Robin Gisby at Network Rail to make a few people see sense!!

The other thing to bear in mind is that the RAIB is currently conducting an enquiry into the levels of rail breaks, which has been on going for some time

 

[ainsworth74]

Though last week it was only predicitable down to the minute on one occasion...

I agree normally it should be highly predictable and far more so than the car (how often do people say 'I'll be arriving at 0942' when they drive?). But last week it really wasn't. I probably was being a bit melodramatic with saying 'dire' but it certainly isn't good by any strech of the imagination.

 

[The Planner]

I do know that the timetable planning for ECML was fraught with difficulties last time round.....and it took the personal efforts of Robin Gisby at Network Rail to make a few people see sense!!

It was fraught because it conveniently decided that freight would move out of the way and they would accept it, it didn't quite work out like that....

 

[Oswyntail]

...
Friday: On Time
Thursday: 2 Late
Wednesday: 9 Late
Tuesday: 14 Late
Monday: 6 Late

Whilst only one of those was technically 'late' by the industry definition of lateness .......

That made me wonder about the other side of "lateness", the personal side. If I am going to an appointment, I tend to plan to arrive about 15 minutes early, as that gives me a reasonable chance of being on time. So that is my "industry standard", a 15-minute leeway. Others might feel that turning up late within a certain period is acceptable, and can be brushed off simply with "sorry". I believe the rail standard is on a par with this.
In fact, is rail the only area of life where we expect greater exactitude (it is certainly the only transport mode)? TV and radio apart, I can't think of any other. How often do we hear "So and so is running late today, please take a seat"?

 

[scotraildriver]

It is odd how the public are so critical of rail timings as opposed to other things. People don't criticise airlines for their awful punctuality, it just seems to be accepted.
In terms of delays of 2mins, 6mins etc, this will never ever change on the railway. A huge multitude of things happen to cause these delays and people just need to live with it.

For example: We had a peak hour service into Glasgow which was ALWAYS 6 or 7 minutes late. This caused knock on delays of over 70 minutes per day. A big investigation was carried out and the problem turned out to be nothing more than a wheelchair user who used the same train each day. A 3 minute delay while the guard got the ramp out, loaded the wheelchair, put the ramp away again then the same again when the passenger alighted. There are so many things like this all over the network which then "knock on" that as I said, its never going to change.

 

[Moonshot]

Not really that odd Scotrail......when you look at the results every year from the Passenger Focus surveys, punctuality features as the biggest issue. Considering that 70% of passengers are going to work or meetings etc, that is no suprise. Airlines dont suffer the same as no one actually uses a plane every day to go to work !!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Not really that odd Scotrail......when you look at the results every year from the Passenger Focus surveys, punctuality features as the biggest issue. Considering that 70% of passengers are going to work or meetings etc, that is no suprise. Airlines dont suffer the same as no one actually uses a plane every day to go to work !!

Linked to that, how many times does the average commuter fly each year? A train service that used every day that is often 5 or so minutes late is always going to feel worse than a plane route used once or twice a year that may have worse reliability figures. Just add up the minutes and you will quickly get more minutes wasted waiting for late trains than late planes.

 

[edwin_m]

Probably the occasional 5min delay doesn't make much difference to the lives of rail passengers. But what some managers from bus or aviation backgrounds don't seem to grasp is that the railway itself needs to run to an accuracy of a minute or two and delays of this size can have consequences. Whereas buses and planes can proceed in the wrong order and overtake, a train usually can't and if it misses its slot at a critical junction then it is either further delayed or delays something else.

 

[Geezertronic]

I would really prefer to take the train so I can rest (maybe work a bit) but a mixture of it being too expensive (journeys into London) and too longer a journey (journeys to South Wales, plus taxi at the Wales end) means I use the car - I live 10 minutes from Birmingham International. I used to use the train all of the time for journeys into London and also St Albans (via St Pancras)

 

[MichaelJP59]

In terms of expectations, I think railways have that image that an efficiently run network is indicative of a well-organised country, and we've all read that the Swiss railways are always on-time and Japanese railway staff commit hara-kiri if late.

I suppose the difference with the car is that you feel (not necessarily true) that you're the master of your own destiny, and you can always turn off and take a clever diversion around a traffic jam.

 

[Moonshot]

Indeed it does Michael - though of course owning a car comes at a price. Cars are funded from net disposable income, and this has fallen a bit in real terms over the last few years. There is also the distorting effect of inflation busting insurance for drivers under 25 - is it any wonder we see so many young professionals on trains nowadays who have NO aspiration to own a car. Clearly "tax by stealth" does change peoples behaviours.....

 

[WelshBluebird]

Probably the occasional 5min delay doesn't make much difference to the lives of rail passengers.

But a lot of the time it isn't the occasional delay. It is regular. In the last 2 weeks I'd hazard a guess that the train I get to and from work has been on time just a few times. And in the last 3 working days (thursday, friday and today) I have had a total delay of over an hour. A bit crazy when the actual train journey is only 7 minutes!!

 

[Bald Rick]

But a lot of the time it isn't the occasional delay. It is regular. In the last 2 weeks I'd hazard a guess that the train I get to and from work has been on time just a few times. And in the last 3 working days (thursday, friday and today) I have had a total delay of over an hour. A bit crazy when the actual train journey is only 7 minutes!!

Welcome to autumn...

 

[yorkie]

Here is the performance for that train this year:

http://raildar.co.uk/timetable/train?trainid=Y50062

It has suffered more delays in the past 3 weeks than the previous 3 months combined.

 

[Goatboy]

It is odd how the public are so critical of rail timings as opposed to other things. People don't criticise airlines for their awful punctuality, it just seems to be accepted.

Airline delays most certainly are not accepted - infact the EU now mandates quite significant compensation amounts for airline delays.

 

[edwin_m]

Airline delays most certainly are not accepted - infact the EU now mandates quite significant compensation amounts for airline delays.

... but only for delays over three hours for reasons within the airline's control. Which does I think go to show the difference between the acceptance of delays in flying and going by train, where the Delay Repay threshold is much less.

 

[PG]

It is odd how the public are so critical of rail timings as opposed to other things. People don't criticise airlines for their awful punctuality, it just seems to be accepted.
In terms of delays of 2mins, 6mins etc, this will never ever change on the railway. A huge multitude of things happen to cause these delays and people just need to live with it.

I wonder if it's to do with societies perception of social status?
As an example one place I worked - if you came in late mumbling about the traffic being bad or no parking available that was accepted regularly. Arrive late on the train, maybe once a week was acceptable. By bus you'd only get away with it occasionally before someone would pull you up over your punctuality. As for walking - woe betide you if you were ever late!

 

[Beveridges]

That is quite good compared to Virgin. In the last two times I have used them they have been an hour late!! Once due to cable theft, the other due to an onboard medical emergency with ambulance attending!

 

[MichaelJP59]

Here is the performance for that train this year:

http://raildar.co.uk/timetable/train?trainid=Y50062

It has suffered more delays in the past 3 weeks than the previous 3 months combined.

That's interesting, never seen that site before. Looks as though have been unlucky the past 3 weeks.

Still, was late again this morning (12 minutes). It has had the effect that given that I charge my clients by the hour, I've had to start getting the later train home (19.15 which is the next train after 17.45), with a knock on effect on family life.

Strangely this morning, no apology or explanation from the train guard. Perhaps weariness setting in after the past few weeks.

 

[Moonshot]

That's interesting, never seen that site before. Looks as though have been unlucky the past 3 weeks.

Still, was late again this morning (12 minutes). It has had the effect that given that I charge my clients by the hour, I've had to start getting the later train home (19.15 which is the next train after 17.45), with a knock on effect on family life.

Strangely this morning, no apology or explanation from the train guard. Perhaps weariness setting in after the past few weeks.

Unfortunately thats the trade off of living our lives how we do.....the UK has the highest lenghth of time of commute in Europe, and its bound to have an impact when disruption occurs, be it train plane or automobile.

 

[Eagle]

That's interesting, never seen that site before. Looks as though have been unlucky the past 3 weeks.

Well it is November. Leaf fall and all that.

 

[Oswyntail]

Well it is November. Leaf fall and all that.

And weather also affects traffic on the roads, so I doubt the relative punctuality has changed much

 

[Goatboy]

... but only for delays over three hours for reasons within the airline's control. Which does I think go to show the difference between the acceptance of delays in flying and going by train, where the Delay Repay threshold is much less.

I would imagine this is because the average journey time on a plane is greater than that of a train, plus the types of journey undertaken are quite different.

Rail is a far more 'ad hoc' method of transport than a plane, journeys are typically shorter, etc.

If you are boarding a 12 hour flight to Los Angeles booked 6 months in advance a 2 hour delay doesn't quite have the same effect on your travel plans as a 2 hour delay to a 2 hour train journey from London to Stafford using a ticket purchased yesterday.

As for why road delays are accepted, well thats simple. Buy a bus ticket, train ticket or a plane ticket and you've paid somebody else to take car of getting you from A to B. Drive and you've not, it's down to you and your own schedule planning.

 

[notadriver]

I don't like driving in traffic jams when I could be doing something else on the train so that influences my decision.

 

[MichaelJP59]

Oh dear, I must have angered the railway gods. Train home at 19.15 was delayed by 40 minutes due to late incoming service. Too late to make the connection at Doncaster so now on the 20.45 direct. Still, plenty of seats available!

 

[Moonshot]

Oh dear, I must have angered the railway gods. Train home at 19.15 was delayed by 40 minutes due to late incoming service. Too late to make the connection at Doncaster so now on the 20.45 direct. Still, plenty of seats available!

Indeed Michael.......the railway gods havent been too kind this evening to the driver and passenger of a car struck by a train on a level crossing, nor to the trespasser struck by a train in a separate incident. So not just you suffering delays.

 

[The Ham]

I would imagine this is because the average journey time on a plane is greater than that of a train, plus the types of journey undertaken are quite different.

Rail is a far more 'ad hoc' method of transport than a plane, journeys are typically shorter, etc.

If you are boarding a 12 hour flight to Los Angeles booked 6 months in advance a 2 hour delay doesn't quite have the same effect on your travel plans as a 2 hour delay to a 2 hour train journey from London to Stafford using a ticket purchased yesterday.

As for why road delays are accepted, well thats simple. Buy a bus ticket, train ticket or a plane ticket and you've paid somebody else to take car of getting you from A to B. Drive and you've not, it's down to you and your own schedule planning.

The thing is there are a lot of flights in and out of the UK which are less than two hours, likewise there are a lot of train services where you can stay on board for more than 4 hours. All of which have the same delay rules as a 24 hour flight or a 6 minute train journey.

Likewise there are people who book flights the day before and people who book train tickets as far in advance as possible.

Delay rules are perhaps one of the reasons why people shift from flying to train. If you are trying to get to a meeting at 12:00 and you book a flight (30 minute flight) getting you to the nearest airport at 10:00 and requiring 30 minutes to get to the meeting and the flight is delayed by 2 hours you turn up 30 minutes late and get nothing. Conversly you catch a train taking 4 hours getting you there at 10:30 and the train is 61 minutes late you get compensation and you're still not late for the meeting (or if you are it's only a matter of a few minutes).

Also, given the nature of airports it is much more likely to be further away than the train station from your meeting. Both are likely to require getting up at about the same time due to the check in for the flight and both are likely to get you home at about the same time as you'd need to allow a larger margin when picking which flight to catch home incase the meeting overuns, whilst if you have the right ticket you can just get the next train (even if you get to the station just 5 minutes before the train is due to leave).