Train v Plane, Glasgow-London

[Traveller54]

Thanks for all your comments folks, if I were a regular business traveller I'd no doubt have got into the habit of arriving at the airport just in time, with hand luggage only, especially as I live closer to Glasgow airport than central station. But at the start of a holiday, where we're continuing on the Eurostar, I think train would be better especially if first class advance tickets are available (not going till September) and virgin's first class service is as good as they say. Another advantage is you don't need to worry about your bag being a milligram overweight!

 

[AnonymousUser1]

<snip>
To the earlier comment about Easyjet and LCY - it isn't going to happen. Only certain planes are certified for LCY, and the Airbus A319 / 320 (as used by easy) will never be certified.
<snip.>

despite the fact that a member of the A320 family is certified for LCY , albeit not with a full transatlantic fuel load ...

 

[marks87]

despite the fact that a member of the A320 family is certified for LCY , albeit not with a full transatlantic fuel load ...

Yes, a heavily-modified (32-seat) version of the smallest member of the A320 family. And even then it can't have its full fuel load.

 

[button_boxer]

Off-topic, I know but:Are terrorists on a budget now?

Jump the queue to get to the checkpoint, not bypass the actual security check.

 

[me123]

despite the fact that a member of the A320 family is certified for LCY , albeit not with a full transatlantic fuel load ...

An A318 could probably take off and land at LCY for shorter routes with a reasonable load of passengers: the restrictions on BA's operations are that the aircraft cannot take off with the fuel it needs to reach America and therefore stops at Shannon, which is the last place it can stop before St John's, Canada. Of note, it does make the return journey non-stop, as it can take off with sufficient fuel at JFK.

However, a standard A318 on a short haul route would be feasible from London City[1], albeit with a slightly reduced payload in some conditions (the article relates to a 107 capacity, which is below the 132 all-economy configuration that is possible)[2].

This does not mean that easyJet are likely to ever operate the aircraft to LCY. Firstly, they do not operate any A318s: their fleet previously consisted of solely A319s, now supplemented with A320s[3]. Neither of these larger aircraft are capable of operating into LCY. The A318 has sold poorly for Airbus, with just 79 being manufactured.[2] The operating costs of the A318 are higher per passenger than those of an A319, and this would likely make it an unattractive option for a budget carrier. Indeed, Frontier Airlines in the USA (also a low cost carrier) is withdrawing its A318s for that reason.[4]

Furthermore, although flyBe's recent expansion at LCY is perhaps a sign of change at LCY, City Airport has historically been a premium airport, with premium services such as BA Cityflyer and BA's all-business transatlantic option. easyJet would need to do quite a lot to crack into this market. flyBe has not exactly been entirely successful at LCY, withdrawing its Inverness route and cutting back on its Exeter one[5] after only a few months.

I do not think that easyJet would likely acquire the equipment to make a LCY operation viable, and even if they did I do not think that they'd be able to make a low-cost operation work at LCY, as the operating costs per passenger will be higher. They will likely have to compete with another airline (almost certainly BACF on most routes), that has well established customer loyalty and higher levels of service, making their entry to the market even more challenging. Finally, they will be competing with themselves to some degree on the well-established and profitable routes between Scotland and Luton, Stansted and Gatwick.

There has been talk of late of easyJet eventually operating to Heathrow, and given the direction the company is going I think that that suggestion has real promise. But LCY is a highly unlikely destination.

References
[1]Airbus A318 makes first test arrival and departure at London City Airport, Flight Global, accessed 3/3/15
[2]Airbus Information Page on A318, accessed 3/3/15
[3]easyJet wikipedia page, accessed 3/3/15
[4]B Nickerson, "North America & Frontier Says Goodbye to the Babybus – Airbus A318", Airline Reporter, 6/9/14
[5]"Airline Route": "flyBe Adjusts London City – Inverness / Exeter Service from late-Feb 2015", 5/1/15, accessed 3/3/15

 

[NLC1072]

If I may quote from Virgin Atlantic (Who do London-Edinburgh for the short term at least)


I'm not aware of any TOC that would advise being there 2 and a half hours before, and wont let you on the train if you're not there and checked in at least hour before.

Or you could go London City Airport where the gate closes 15 minutes before departure for all flights there?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Yes, a heavily-modified (32-seat) version of the smallest member of the A320 family. And even then it can't have its full fuel load.

32 seats because it's single class utilising lay flat beds ... it;s not 'heavily modified' the aircraft itself is a standard line production model of the A318 with the steep approach configuration specified

Airbus will sell you a A318 with a passenger capacity rangine from 8 (as part of the ACJ range) to 136 in a high density economy layout - the standard models are 100 -110 seats depending on whether single or 2 class with short haul premium seating in the front

 

[najaB]

Airbus will sell you a A318 with a passenger capacity rangine from 8 (as part of the ACJ range) to 136 in a high density economy layout - the standard models are 100 -110 seats depending on whether single or 2 class with short haul premium seating in the front

But a 100 seat A318 would struggle for range out of LCY if the majority of passengers brought hold luggage.

 

[NLC1072]

Yes, I suppose LCY is really good. I always do check it out but on the dates BA is so expensive that it's not worth it.

I didn't realise until now that Flybe also flew these routes, but they use terrible propeller planes that are insanely noisy and considerably slower than jets.

I'm surprised Easyjet hasn't launched at LCY.

Flybe use Bombardier Q400's which still do 360 Knots p/h, faster than most other prop planes! And they're not too bad either. Much more leg room than a train in standard class! I fly with BA, Cityjet, Aer Lingus, Ryanair, Flybe and Easyjet and I can safely say I prefer the Q400's because of their small size - they get away much quicker than waiting for a Ryanair 737 - 800 to load up! And that usually makes domestic journies overall faster.

 

[najaB]

Flybe use Bombardier Q400's which still do 360 Knots p/h, faster than most other prop planes!

Pedantry alert: Knots are nautical miles per hour, so knots per hour is a unit of acceleration, not speed. I guess a Flybe Q400 could do the Kessel run in under 12 parsecs!

 

[NLC1072]

Pedantry alert: Knots are nautical miles per hour, so knots per hour is a unit of acceleration, not speed. I guess a Flybe Q400 could do the Kessel run in under 12 parsecs!

That has to be a contender for some sort of pedantry award from RailUK lol!!!

 

[me123]

Pedantry alert: Knots are nautical miles per hour, so knots per hour is a unit of acceleration, not speed. I guess a Flybe Q400 could do the Kessel run in under 12 parsecs!

Well, if you're going to be pedantic, a parsec isn't a unit of time, it's an astronomical unit of distance equal to 3.26 light years (or about 30.8 trillion kilometres). A distance so huge that the entire Dash 8 fleet combined will never fly as far as even a single parsec, never mind twelve of them. Click here to learn more.

 

[dcsprior]

Is it a fair comparison to say VT/EC Standard Class is similar to EasyJet and First Class is similar to BA, allowing for the shorter journey times in each case?

Nope. On domestic flights, the planes/seating on BA & Easyjet are effectively the same. Both are slightly smaller than an airline-style seat in standard class on either of the models of train which East Coast operate. There obviously aren't any table seats, and you can't sit a laptop on the seat-back table at an angle which makes the screen visible

mind you in Aus you can also use Electronics during take off and Landing on Domestic Flights

As you can here now too - I don't know when this changed, but I don't think it was allowed a couple of years ago, and now is.

As for the OP's question, I can't answer for Glasgow-London, but I can for Edinburgh-London which is similar in distance and journey times. Although I've always thought I prefer the train, I recently switched to flying for the southbound half of the trip I must say I'm liking it.

For me, the plane is a lot more attractive southbound in the morning than it is northbound in the evening:

• Door to door journey times - travelling by taxi just after 5am (with multiple routes between me and the airport) and going through security at a relatively quiet time, I don't need to allow much time for unexpected delays, so my door-to-door journey can be a lot less than if I have to allow for a trip on the Gatwick "Express" during the evening peak.
• Other passengers - on a 6:25am flight there's not much in the way of noisy passengers, screaming children or stag/hen parties.
• Arrival times - its nice to be able to be in the office for 9am rather than 10:15am, beating some people who've come from a few miles away. There isn't such an advantage to being home at 9pm rather than 10:15pm.
• Not really fussed about food as my closest colleagues have breakfast at work, and I'll be in time to join them; whereas in the evening I appreciate the hot meal which EC serve (1st class northbound is about the same price as Easyjet + GatEx) accompanied by a beer.

Of course it depends on what your end to end journey is. I live on the outskirts of Edinburgh, and work a few minutes walk from London Victoria. If I lived in the City Centre and worked near King's Cross, this'd tip the balance towards rail; and if I lived in Kirliston and worked in Docklands, it'd tip the balance the other way.

 

[po8crg]

Well, if you're going to be pedantic, a parsec isn't a unit of time, it's an astronomical unit of distance equal to 3.26 light years (or about 30.8 trillion kilometres). A distance so huge that the entire Dash 8 fleet combined will never fly as far as even a single parsec, never mind twelve of them. Click here to learn more.

Um, that was the joke!

Han Solo is boasting in Star Wars and gets it wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or you could go London City Airport where the gate closes 15 minutes before departure for all flights there?

Flying easyJet I have *never* known the gate even *open* at the specified time, let alone close then.

Neil

 

[Mojo]

One thing not seen mentioned yet is the time of the last "day" train. I need to travel from Glasgow to London on a Saturday in a few months time and I am flying because the last train from Glasgow is at 16.15. Admittedly there are engineering works that day, but even on a "normal" Saturday the last train is at 18.00 (last direct train at 17.40).

 

[NLC1072]

One thing not seen mentioned yet is the time of the last "day" train. I need to travel from Glasgow to London on a Saturday in a few months time and I am flying because the last train from Glasgow is at 16.15. Admittedly there are engineering works that day, but even on a "normal" Saturday the last train is at 18.00 (last direct train at 17.40).

And there are no night trains either on a Saturday evening (sleeper trains).

 

[paul1609]

It's even worse going north, the only train that gets in to Glasgow before 12pm takes over 5 hrs. Coming back I think the last fast train is around 15.40.I don't think rail has any of the London to Scotland business market (as opposed to the Scotland to London) market as a result.

 

[Jordeh]

32 seats because it's single class utilising lay flat beds ... it;s not 'heavily modified' the aircraft itself is a standard line production model of the A318 with the steep approach configuration specified

Airbus will sell you a A318 with a passenger capacity rangine from 8 (as part of the ACJ range) to 136 in a high density economy layout - the standard models are 100 -110 seats depending on whether single or 2 class with short haul premium seating in the front

I believe the "heavily modified" claim is a reference to the additional fuel tanks it has rather than the seating layout.

 

[Deerfold]

It's even worse going north, the only train that gets in to Glasgow before 12pm takes over 5 hrs. Coming back I think the last fast train is around 15.40.I don't think rail has any of the London to Scotland business market (as opposed to the Scotland to London) market as a result.

A couple of my work colleagues did a business trip London to Falkirk and back in a day.

They had my sympathy.

 

[marks87]

A couple of my work colleagues did a business trip London to Falkirk and back in a day.

They had my sympathy.

Aye, poor sods having to go to Falkirk.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A couple of my work colleagues did a business trip London to Falkirk and back in a day.

They had my sympathy.

I'm sure they *could* have had a hotel for the night before/after if necessary - but felt it was preferable for whatever reason (seeing their kids enough or something) to day-trip it?

Neil

 

[Deerfold]

I'm sure they *could* have had a hotel for the night before/after if necessary - but felt it was preferable for whatever reason (seeing their kids enough or something) to day-trip it?

Neil

I believe not for budgetary reasons - they had a very long day (although only a relatively short meeting).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe not for budgetary reasons - they had a very long day (although only a relatively short meeting).

Sounds like an employer who doesn't care one jot for their staff, and an employee who needs to look for a new job, then.

Neil

 

[Greenback]

There's no straight forward answer. It will depend on the circumstances of the trip, and the individuals definition of the word 'better'. Some journeys will require a budget based approach, some will have convenience or frequency as the priority. Finally, a lot depend son the actual starting and finishing point, and how convenient they are for the airport or railway station.

 

[najaB]

Sounds like an employer who doesn't care one jot for their staff, and an employee who needs to look for a new job, then.

Whoa, hold on there a moment. You don't know what reasons there might be behind this trip - there may have been personal reasons why an overnight stay wasn't possible. Even if it was budgetary, perhaps an overnight stay would've mean that not everyone would have been able to attend the meeting.

It's a bit of a deductive jump to go from one long day to the conclusion that the employee should be looking for a new job!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whoa, hold on there a moment. You don't know what reasons there might be behind this trip - there may have been personal reasons why an overnight stay wasn't possible.

Read my previous posting and Deerfold's answer to it.

Even if it was budgetary, perhaps an overnight stay would've mean that not everyone would have been able to attend the meeting.

Not the employee's problem. If the meeting is unaffordable while providing reasonable conditions for the employee, it is unaffordable and a different arrangement should be considered.

It's a bit of a deductive jump to go from one long day to the conclusion that the employee should be looking for a new job!

That an employer allegedly would not fund a hotel to avoid a stupidly long day trip (as seems to be the case from Deerfold's reply to me) shows that the company either (a) is operating on a real shoestring, or (b) cares more about the bottom line than the welfare of their staff. If another job is available, it's not a company I'd stay with.

If the *employee* makes that choice that's up to them provided the choice does not adversely affect their work performance, of course (e.g. through tiredness), but Deerfold stated that that was not the case.

Neil

 

[DarloRich]

I live in Renfrewshire where the only easy way of getting to Glasgow airport is by taxi, the nearest station is Johnstone which has frequent trains to central. I considered the sleeper as we are going on a Great Rail holiday on the Eurostar but it will be a fairly early departure and I wouldnt want to risk the sleeper running late, so we would travel to London the day before and Euston is only a short distance from St Pancras with a good choice of hotels. Coming back, I understand the Eurostar gets in mid evening, so we may take the sleeper then, though having read the Serco thread, I'm not holding my breath!

You are in a similar position to me as part of the parental unit live at Lochwinnoch and I think I have travelled between Mk and Glasgow by every conceivable means! I will say, clearly, train is my favourite option but it may not be the quickest

Coach: No, just no. Cheap but mind numbingly boring, slow and uncomfortable. And full of bloody students!

Car: Long, slow (ish) but this has been reduced with the opening of the M74/M8 link road. At least you get to choose were to stop when you drive yourself and for how long – Try Tebay services

Train 1: Direct via Crewe – I most often use the 06:23 when traveling the direct route which takes 4hrs:13 mins arriving into Glasgow at 10:36.

Train 2: Via Birmingham - These trains take about 5hrs4mins but are cheaper than above and often loess heavily loaded. NRES will suggest a change at somewhere like Lancaster onto the direct train but I tend jus to book the cheap fare and stay on the same train. The problem is that these trains MAY be a Voyager.

Train 3: Kings Cross – Glasgow. I have done this route in reverse and it is much longer but your get a proper train It takes 5hr & 53mins

Sleeper: I find this a really good way to travel as it essentially gives me an extra day in Scotland and still has me back for work on Monday morning. It isn’t the most comfortable of nights sleep at times but I find it perfectly good, the lounge is nice and it is a relaxed way to travel. It is better southbound as you can have a shower etc at Euston. Price wise it isn’t always competitive but offers a good option for business travellers.

Plane: Luton – Glasgow is a quick flight, there is limited faffing around if you travel light and fares are ok. The issue for me is the journey to the airport as I don’t own a car. It means the bus form MK which takes 45-60 mins depending on traffic and either the bus to Glasgow or Paisley at the other end if I can’t rustle up a life.

I think the plane is quicker for me but it means I can’t work or really relax as you can on the train. Form London I am not so sure which would be quicker by the time you add the journey to the airport, parking etc and the journey to and from the city centre if you fly into Heathrow or Gatwick. It must be close. I do wonder if it is quicker to fly from Glasgow to Luton and train it to London from there.

 

[najaB]

Read my previous posting and Deerfold's answer to it... ...but Deerfold stated that that was not the case.

I did read both. Deerfold said that he believed it was for budgetary reasons, which indicates to me that he wasn't directly involved in the decision-making process.

Maybe they are a crap employer, maybe they aren't - unlike you I'm not confident enough in my psychic abilities to say that someone should quit their job based on one Internet forum post made by a third-party.

 

[Mojo]

I live in Renfrewshire where the only easy way of getting to Glasgow airport is by taxi, the nearest station is Johnstone which has frequent trains to central.

Paisley Gilmour Street is the nearest station to Glasgow Airport. It's only a half-hour walk, or there is a regular and cheap bus service.