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I feel like industrial action, lack of full service and anti-social behaviour could all be solved by more money for staff and trains, but I doubt that'll come any time soon
Industrial action is always going to be a problem. More money won't help. Even if you offer all staff £100,000 a year today, there will be strikes in a couple of years time because they want £105,000 a year.
Rail will only become viable again if/when automation or remote control becomes sufficiently advanced meaning that staff aren't so indispensable. At the moment, staff call the shots because of the tight labour market, which is forecast to continue for the foreseeable future even through a recession.
I'll admit it's not easy for other Northern lines at the moment (CLC, Barrow etc.), but it's reassuring to know that not all Northern routes are a myriad of cancellations and delays.
My line's service is very good with Northern, quite rarely cancelled (almost always train crew which is kinda inevitable) and bad delays only occur with errors on other areas (e.g. if a train breaks down).
I don't have to commute for a while, even longer if the strikes early January go ahead.
I'm hopeful that this time is the bottom of the experience and things will go up from here but I feel this might much more just be blind hope rather than actual insight.
Industrial action is always going to be a problem. More money won't help. Even if you offer all staff £100,000 a year today, there will be strikes in a couple of years time because they want £105,000 a year.
Rail will only become viable again if/when automation or remote control becomes sufficiently advanced meaning that staff aren't so indispensable. At the moment, staff call the shots because of the tight labour market, which is forecast to continue for the foreseeable future even through a recession.
I would happy with automation and drivers sitting in the cab in case things go bad (like planes).
The unions won't be happy but in the end I feel automation will win.
I do think there is an element of hyperbole, the railways aren't in any real danger of going entirely even with the current situation and some people switching from rail to road and realistically many cities would not cope both financially and traffic wise if the railways were all closed.
Since the pandemic there has also been a significant increase in low level anti-social behaviour on trains, notably badly behaved schoolchildren, beggars, and drunken teenagers.
Yes! Actually I find myself able to excuse the schoolchildren/kids, because they have missed a couple of years of socialisation in which they might otherwise have learned how to behave in shared indoor public spaces.
But it's like everybody else has forgotten as well! Now it's rare to manage a long-distance train journey that doesn't have at least two people, not just kids, playing Netflix or music out loud on speakers, or having a video call without earphones, or similar.
Industrial action is always going to be a problem. More money won't help. Even if you offer all staff £100,000 a year today, there will be strikes in a couple of years time because they want £105,000 a year.
Not true at all, there are relatively few strikes about pay. It just doesn't seem that way this year because of the cost of living crisis and falling living standards.
You do realise you haven't removed the driver there, don't you? "(like planes)" - sure all the pilots do is press a button to take off and land, simple innit! Come on.
I do think there is an element of hyperbole, the railways aren't in any real danger of going entirely even with the current situation and some people switching from rail to road and realistically many cities would not cope both financially and traffic wise if the railways were all closed.
Manchester traffic is already decently bad as it is, London is even worse, I think it would be basically impossible for railways to close but they could get worse (e.g. less reliable).
People complain about how busy trains are as if roads aren't busy too, these people ditching trains for cars might find themselves on trains more often, if not returning completely. For me going either way on my line the train is half the speed, so even if it was standing room only I'd take it.
You do realise you haven't removed the driver there, don't you? "(like planes)" - sure all the pilots do is press a button to take off and land, simple innit! Come on.
Rail will only become viable again if/when automation or remote control becomes sufficiently advanced meaning that staff aren't so indispensable. At the moment, staff call the shots because of the tight labour market, which is forecast to continue for the foreseeable future even through a recession.
Yet I used TPE from Liverpool to York recently. It was a 5-car 802 (3-car 185 last time) which was quicker & ran pretty much to time throughout with cheerful guard & catering host. Although busy it was comfortably full so all in all I couldn’t fault it. Let’s hope things improve to this standard on a more regular basis soon.
I do think there is an element of hyperbole, the railways aren't in any real danger of going entirely even with the current situation and some people switching from rail to road and realistically many cities would not cope both financially and traffic wise if the railways were all closed.
But if you don't remove the driver they are still indispensable. The trains won't run without a driver, that is the crux of the idea of "stopping the job" during strikes.
The poster was saying the trains need to run by remote control or by total automation.
Wihout wishing to make light of what is happening now (which has definitely put me off travelling when I don't absolutely have to), there have been major issues in the past that disrupted people's journeys. Post-Hatfield the whole network was in chaos, and I can remember stretches of the West Coast Main Line being closed for months during the West Coast route modernisation (Crewe - Wilmslow was closed for nearly 6 months in 2006, with the rail replacement buses virtually empty) yet the long term trend of passenger numbers continued to rise.
If the rail industry can come out of this without major cuts (which is not certain, given the DfT involvement) I think passenger numbers will recover faily quickly.
I don't think passenger numbers are the issue, most trains I get are full to standing. It's the poor service that's the problem.
Obviously if more trains/carriages were running then that's more passenger numbers as well, rather than the constant cocktail of post-Covid timetables, cancellations, delays, strikes and shortforms.
If people just weren't using trains any more then that'd be one thing, but the demand is there. The service isn't.
I say it's a choice people have to make
I often choose to get a train if it's available at all, which it almost always has been.
If there's no train for my commute I try as much as I can to be remote as I'd rather not deal with the long walk to the inconsistent slow buses I'm used to compared to a short walk to the trains, obviously not every role can be done remotely
I'm now finding impossible to make any plans for train travel. Having to wait the 14 days before a strike notice is issued isn't fun. I did manage a week away and a long weekend in November but it was all booked once I knew there were no strikes.
I agree with comments about trains now being uncomfortable, ironing board seats, lack of working toilets, cancelations, infrastucture issues, short formed and overcrowded. To be honest train travel is a bit of a lottery now.
Next week I'm seeing my daughter, I'd of rather gone there by train but I think the M25 might be quicker and easier. Here is someone who hates driving long distances and used to enjoy train travel.
It's taken IMO the downward spiral started 18 months ago and I can't see it ending soon.
Next week I'm seeing my daughter, I'd of rather gone there by train but I think the M25 might be quicker and easier. Here is someone who hates driving long distances and used to enjoy train travel.
Would it be possible for you to choose last minute? If you can make a decision at the time train crew issues are known (like on the day) it might be easier to travel?
Most of my travel is and has always been by car (or van/truck/tour bus) but i always used to consider the train where i could due to my fondness of the railway. When working i'd always have to weigh up the reliability factor, the time factor and the cost factor. The cost is, more often than not more expensive to use public transport, the time is more often than not slower to go by public transport and the reliability factor used to be a fair bit less reliable to go via public transport. It's a difficult fight to keep using the train but the last 12 months has seen the reliability levels drop to unacceptable levels. I cannot feasibly use the train for much at the moment, and i'm finding myself better off in terms of finances, spare time and spare blood pressure by just going in the car.
That said i have had an acceptable trip to and from York in the last couple of days. I had to stand on the LNER leg both ways but i rather consider that normal now, but minimal delays.
Would it be possible for you to choose last minute? If you can make a decision at the time train crew issues are known (like on the day) it might be easier to travel?
I much prefer travelling by rail, particularly on long solo journeys, but having had to travel from Newbury to Sunderland to Felixstowe last week on strike days, the comfort of my car for 600 miles on freezing days was rather nice. I've not travelled with the family by train for ages due to the cost. Since getting an EV, that cost difference is even more pronounced disappointingly.
What I don't quite get is people switching to the car/coach. Long distance car/coach journies are extremely unreliable as well - way way way worse than the railway even now IMO. Often hit 1-2 hour delays for congestion, accidents etc at least down the M6 etc. I cannot see how London to Manchester driving would be any more reliable than getting Avanti even in its current dismal situation.
Google Maps is predicting a 3h40 to 5h30 journey London to Manchester tomorrow departing at 9:30am. For the car to beat the train you'd have to have *7-10* Avanti trains cancelled in a row. Looking at RTT the worst case scenario delay wise would be around an hour based on yesterdays results. In which case you'd have a free journey with delay repay, and be ~0.5-2.5 hours ahead of the car, plus you don't need to be actually driving the whole time.
When it comes to visiting my family I can get from Horsham to Salford in about five and a half hours given average congestion on the M25/M42/M6. This is slower than the train but not by much when factoring in the 20 minutes taken to cycle to Horsham and the 35 minutes taken to cycle from Man Pic to my father's house. The tangible cost of driving is half that of using the train (because advance tickets are non-existant or extremely hard to get) and having a car in Salford makes it practical to do some hiking in one of the four national parks within a two hour drive.
An additional benefit of driving is there are multiple routes which sometimes enables me to avoid the worst blackspots and if I hit traffic congestion, I have the flexibility to find another road to bypass it. There is far less flexibility when it comes to dealing with train delays on the fly.
I will be heading up there on the morning of Christmas Eve which in my experience is a good day to travel.
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The sad thing is, it really doesn’t have to be like this and it wasn’t that long ago. It seems to be part of a culture of blowing up perfectly good public infrastructure that is all the rage with a rage filled generation of leaders.
It seems to be a part of general deterioration in and of the UK. Sometimes I feel like I live in a country where most people can't be bothered and do the absolute bear minimum they need to do to avoid any negative consequences, and this slapdash attitude ultimately externalises consequences onto everyone else. The UK these days seems to be analogous to the Brittania hotel chain.
I sometimes think as well many of the UK's population, especially those who lean strongly towards nationalism, are stuck in a time warp. This is not the end of WWII or 1966 and we need to get a grip on reality. Whilst this is still a great country to live in, we need to face up to the fact that some things are poor/sub standard and should be addressed instead of making excuses or throwing out that dumb comeback of telling someone to go and live somewhere else if they call something out.
I would happy with automation and drivers sitting in the cab in case things go bad (like planes).
The unions won't be happy but in the end I feel automation will win.
Do we really want the vast numbers of unemployed people that will result if this is replicated in other industries? For one thing that will require a bigger benefits budget, so any so called "savings" will be negated. What isn't spent on the railways will have to be spent on welfare.
It won't do anyone's personal finances and mental health any good if we're all stuck at home receiving a pittance in benefits, rather than being out there doing jobs!
Do we really want the vast numbers of unemployed people that will result if this is replicated in other industries? For one thing that will require a bigger benefits budget, so any so called "savings" will be negated. What isn't spent on the railways will have to be spent on welfare.
Given modern demographics, unemployment is not really a major concern in the coming decades in most of the developed world. In fact, staff/skill shortages are a huge worry.
Sometimes I feel like I live in a country where most people can't be bothered and do the absolute bear minimum they need to do to avoid any negative consequences, and this slapdash attitude ultimately externalises consequences onto everyone else..
The railways are awful and I rarely leave Greater London at the moment but to be honest I find just living in the UK is utterly depressing currently. I have never hated and detested a government so much in my time who seem totally inept at anything coupled with the weather it is unbearable
Seriously for the first time in my life thinking of using my Aus passport to escape
Rail will only become viable again if/when automation or remote control becomes sufficiently advanced meaning that staff aren't so indispensable. At the moment, staff call the shots because of the tight labour market, which is forecast to continue for the foreseeable future even through a recession.
I would happy with automation and drivers sitting in the cab in case things go bad (like planes).
The unions won't be happy but in the end I feel automation will win.
I’m sure it will in the end. I’m honestly not sure I’m more worried as a train driver than I would be in many other roles. As I never tire of pointing out when people talk about automation, I regularly drive over a route with semaphore signals and absolute block.
There’s a good chance it’ll still be that way when I retire in around thirty years (preferably earlier!).
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The railways are awful and I rarely leave Greater London at the moment but to be honest I find just living in the UK is utterly depressing currently. I have never hated and detested a government so much in my time who seem totally inept at anything coupled with the weather it is unbearable
Seriously for the first time in my life thinking of using my Aus passport to escape
You must be fun at parties.......the weather is actually quite mild for the time of year and the whole world are having problems post pandemic including Australia.
No you are right, all this moaning because parts of the network are practically crippled. What were we all thinking? I know let's organise a big celebration in honour of all the issues, there will be plenty of people stood around on platforms hoping to have half a chance of completing their journeys we could invite...
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