Train Travel Planning Approaches

[Ian99]

Twice a year I seem to form a new spreadsheet to plan the different options to travel across Europe by train via various different routes.

I wonder if anyone here is aware of a master spreadsheet to facilitate such planning?

 

[parkender102]

Seat 61 has one - used to be able to download it but think it just explains it now - I usually set up my own:

Independent travel: How to plan a budget & itinerary

A beginner's guide to planning an itinerary & budget for a complex journey

www.seat61.com

 

[Ian99]

Thanks very much for the link - I'm always pointing people towards the man at seat 61 site but I'd not seen that page.

However, one could say that it was less a planning tool and more an agenda to check the plan at the end of having planned.

A planning spreadsheet would have numerous options entered so that one can scan them all and decide which ones fit together. Eg Shall I go London, Paris Nord, Paris Est, Strasbourg, overnight, Basel or shall I go London, Lille, Marne la Vallée-Chessy, Strasbourg, Mulhouse, overnight, Basel.

I can sort of do that in the in-app interrail planner - enter in lots of different options, scan through them and see which ones to delete to leave the preferred journey.

 

[rvdborgt]

I can sort of do that in the in-app interrail planner - enter in lots of different options, scan through them and see which ones to delete to leave the preferred journey.

This is an app that should never be used to plan.

 

[Ian99]

I know what you mean - the timetable is not regularly updated - but the ease of entering multiple overlapping journeys worked for me before I then checked the route I decided on in a proper app.

I've also played with asking AI sites and one can get some ideas of different approaches but the detail always needs to be checked.

 

[nwales58]

s/interrail planner/bahn.de/

Seriously, if you are looking for the content to be pre-filled that is unrealistic, and if automated for your needs it must be done from authoritative data (e.g. MERITS) rather than 'here's something I found on the Internet some time ago'.

Unrealistic because we all have different needs. My distance from London means there is a very narrow window of Eurostar times that I can reach in a day which limits which onward connections are worth using and a small numbr of first/last night stops. If you live in SE England you have fewer constraints but rapidly beyond the channel your choices are influenced by which direction(s) you are going in. Interregional TGV timetables are quite date-dependent for instance.

If someone is to offer a service automating this, it would cost a bit, as does European Timetable, to be done properly which in turn means few would use it as we are in the age of 'everything is free' (rather, paid for by advertising).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2024 ==

And different people have different approaches to connection risk. DB gives me Birmingham-Bratislave in 24h but it includes a Eurostar Red which I don't want to pay for, a 15 minute connection in Frankfurt and 20 minute in Dresden onto reservation-compulsory EN457 which I would not trust. Others might like that.

 

[rvdborgt]

I know what you mean - the timetable is not regularly updated - but the ease of entering multiple overlapping journeys worked for me before I then checked the route I decided on in a proper app.

It's not just that the rail planner app isn't updated frequently enough. It's also incomplete (more so than e.g. bahn.de), uses incorrect minimum connection times (could be too short or too long), heavily prefers the fastest journeys, to the point that it will often hide direct trains if it can find a journey with changes that's just a few minutes faster, and the list goes on. You should really only use it to register the trains you use when travelling on a pass.

For planning purposes, I use DB's text interface and copy results into a text editor or a shared Google doc, using a monospace font.
If you like an offline planner in app form, then check Můj vlak, which can plan online and offline.

 

[nwales58]

Generative AI?????? By all means use it, check the results and giggle when wrong but ...

Please, please, please be aware that generative + large language model at present are attractive looking but very much pre-release marketing toys which pull in masses of people to justify the next phase of spending more money that eventually we will collectively end up paying.

They are utterly different from AI, more often, ML which has been carefully trained and tested on a specific problem area, such as route planning or assessing retinopathy images.

How do you know it has not 'hallucinated' (marketing people avoiding the words 'wrong' or 'lie') - yes, you have checked authoritative data.
How do you know it has given you the best answer? Has it asked you questions to fill in what you have not specified? (this is classic: all specifications are wrong, some are useful as the starting point for a detailed discussion).
How do you know whether there are other solutions nearly as good or that you might prefer? Current generative seems to want to present a single 'know-all' solution.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2024 ==

For planning purposes, I use DB's text interface and copy results into a text editor ...

and that is a step I had thought about automating and possibly someone already has.

You start with your spreadsheet.
Specify a sample date and time range.
Type a couple of station names in.
Automation fills in the times, train numbers etc for you (pluggable, e.g. from that interface or others, not GTFS though which is the one happy youngsters are likely to pick).
Type another station or two.
Automation kicks in again.
Later, automation can repeat the queries for different dates and specific data sources which know about engineering work, natural disasters and so on.

It would be useful to automate the boring stuff, dates of operation and retrying the query on dates a train does not run, looking up the stock on vagonweb if you need that (open versus compartment stock and so on) ... but it rapidly becomes a) work, b) specific to my concerns, c) highly unlikely anyone else will want to pay. A FOSS project might be the way to go but that's another can of worms.

 

[Ian99]

I'm 100% with you about the limitations of Copilot for example but thought I'd give it a go - if only to laugh at the mistakes.
If anyone is interested, I've dumped a recent conversation below for your amusement, interest or bemusement.

Show me a swiss rail map

Sent by Copilot:​

Sure! Here is an interactive Swiss rail map that you can explore online: Swiss Rail Map1. This map allows you to browse through popular routes, including high-speed, regional, and scenic trains.

If you prefer a detailed overview, you can also check out the official Swiss train map provided by Swiss Federal Railways, which includes all major and minor train routes, mountain railway lines, and connections2.

Would you like more information on specific routes or travel tips for Switzerland?

Sent by you:​

show me a scenic route from Lille to Chur by train

Sent by Copilot:​

For a scenic train journey from Lille to Chur, you can take the following route:

1. Lille to Paris: Start by taking a high-speed TGV train from Lille to Paris. This leg of the journey is quick and comfortable.
2. Paris to Zurich: From Paris, board another TGV train to Zurich. This route offers beautiful views of the French countryside and the Swiss landscape as you approach Zurich.
3. Zurich to Chur: Finally, take a regional train from Zurich to Chur. This part of the journey is particularly scenic, passing through picturesque Swiss towns and stunning alpine scenery.

Once in Chur, you can also consider taking the Bernina Express for an unforgettable experience through the Swiss Alps, featuring panoramic views and UNESCO World Heritage sites12.

Sent by you:​

I'm going London to Chur, please give me a suggested rail route with a nice town to stay overnight in that is not Strasbourg or Mulhouse

Sent by Copilot:​

For a scenic and enjoyable train journey from London to Chur with an overnight stay, here’s a suggested route:

1. London to Paris: Start your journey by taking the Eurostar from London St Pancras to Paris Gare du Nord. This leg takes about 2 hours and 20 minutes.
2. Paris to Basel: From Paris, take a TGV Lyria train to Basel. This journey offers beautiful views of the French countryside and takes around 3 hours.
3. Overnight in Colmar: Instead of Strasbourg or Mulhouse, consider staying overnight in Colmar. This charming town in the Alsace region is known for its well-preserved old town, colorful half-timbered houses, and picturesque canals. It’s about a 45-minute train ride from Basel.
4. Basel to Chur: The next day, continue your journey from Basel to Chur. This part of the trip takes around 2 hours and 30 minutes and offers stunning views of the Swiss landscape.

Colmar is a delightful place to explore, with its beautiful architecture, museums, and delicious Alsatian cuisine. It’s a perfect spot to relax and enjoy before continuing your scenic journey to Chur.

Would you like more details on booking tickets or things to do in Colmar?

Sent by you:​

Is basel between Colmar and Chur?

Sent by Copilot:​

Yes, Basel is located between Colmar and Chur. Here’s a brief overview of the route:

• Colmar to Basel: This leg of the journey is quite short, taking about 45 minutes by train.
• Basel to Chur: From Basel, you can continue your journey to Chur, which takes around 2 hours and 30 minutes by train.

So, after your overnight stay in Colmar, you would travel to Basel and then proceed to Chur. This route ensures you get to enjoy the scenic beauty of both the Alsace region and the Swiss landscape.

Would you like any more details or assistance with planning your trip?

Sent by you:​

but I go to Basel first from Paris?

Sent by Copilot:​

Yes, that’s correct! From Paris, you will first travel to Basel. Here’s a recap of the route:

1. London to Paris: Take the Eurostar from London St Pancras to Paris Gare du Nord (about 2 hours and 20 minutes).
2. Paris to Basel: From Paris, board a TGV Lyria train to Basel. This journey takes around 3 hours1.
3. Overnight in Colmar: After arriving in Basel, take a short train ride (about 45 minutes) to Colmar for your overnight stay.
4. Basel to Chur: The next day, travel from Basel to Chur, which takes approximately 2 hours and 30 minutes2.

This route ensures you get to enjoy the scenic beauty of both the Alsace region and the Swiss landscape.

Would you like more details on booking tickets or things to do in Colmar?

Sent by you:​

So I go Paris, Basel, Colmar, Basel, Chur?

Sent by Copilot:​

Not quite. Here’s the correct sequence for your journey:

1. London to Paris: Take the Eurostar from London St Pancras to Paris Gare du Nord.
2. Paris to Basel: From Paris, take a TGV Lyria train to Basel.
3. Basel to Colmar: After arriving in Basel, take a short train ride to Colmar for your overnight stay.
4. Colmar to Basel: The next day, return to Basel.
5. Basel to Chur: Finally, travel from Basel to Chur.

So, the route is: London → Paris → Basel → Colmar (overnight) → Basel → Chur.

Would you like more details on booking tickets or things to do in Colmar?

Sent by you:​

how about a route staying in Germany?

Sent by Copilot:​

For a scenic train journey from London to Chur with an overnight stay in Germany, here’s a suggested route:

1. London to Brussels: Start by taking the Eurostar from London St Pancras to Brussels. This leg takes about 2 hours.
2. Brussels to Cologne: From Brussels, take a high-speed Thalys or ICE train to Cologne. This journey takes around 1 hour and 45 minutes.
3. Overnight in Heidelberg: From Cologne, take a train to Heidelberg, which takes about 2 hours. Heidelberg is a beautiful town known for its historic university, charming old town, and the stunning Heidelberg Castle.
4. Heidelberg to Basel: The next day, continue your journey from Heidelberg to Basel. This part of the trip takes around 2 hours and 30 minutes.
5. Basel to Chur: Finally, travel from Basel to Chur, which takes approximately 2 hours and 30 minutes.

So, the route is: London → Brussels → Cologne → Heidelberg (overnight) → Basel → Chur.

Heidelberg offers a delightful mix of history, culture, and scenic beauty, making it a perfect stopover on your journey.

Would you like more details on booking tickets or things to do in Heidelberg?

Sent by you:​

How much are hotels close to the station in Heidelberg?

Sent by Copilot:​

Here are some options for hotels near Heidelberg Hauptbahnhof (main train station) with their approximate prices:

1. Premier Inn Heidelberg City Bahnstadt: This 3-star hotel offers comfortable rooms with amenities like free breakfast, Wi-Fi, and a fitness center. Prices start around £80 per night1.
2. ibis Heidelberg Hauptbahnhof: A 2-star hotel located right next to the station, offering basic amenities like free Wi-Fi and parking. Prices start around £70 per night2.
3. Qube Hotel Bergheim: A 4-star hotel located about 400 meters from the station, featuring modern rooms and a stylish restaurant. Prices start around £110 per night3.

These prices are approximate and can vary based on the season and availability. Would you like more details on any of these hotels or assistance with booking?

Sent by you:​

Thanks. How about a stop closer to the border?

Sent by Copilot:​

For a scenic train journey from London to Chur with an overnight stay closer to the Swiss border, consider stopping in Freiburg im Breisgau. Here’s a suggested route:

1. London to Paris: Take the Eurostar from London St Pancras to Paris Gare du Nord (about 2 hours and 20 minutes).
2. Paris to Freiburg im Breisgau: From Paris, take a TGV train to Freiburg im Breisgau. This journey takes around 3 hours and 30 minutes and offers beautiful views of the French and German countryside.
3. Overnight in Freiburg im Breisgau: Freiburg is a charming city in the Black Forest region, known for its medieval architecture, vibrant cultural scene, and scenic surroundings. It’s a great place to explore and relax.
4. Freiburg im Breisgau to Chur: The next day, continue your journey from Freiburg to Chur. This part of the trip takes around 3 hours and offers stunning views of the Swiss landscape.

So, the route is: London → Paris → Freiburg im Breisgau (overnight) → Chur.

Freiburg im Breisgau is a delightful city with plenty to see and do, making it a perfect stopover on your journey.

Would you like more details on booking tickets or things to do in Freiburg im Breisgau?

Sent by you:​

In future when you say, "Paris" please say swith station in Paris, eg, "Paris Est" or "Paris Nord"

Sent by Copilot:​

Got it! I’ll make sure to specify the stations in Paris in the future. Thanks for the suggestion!

Would you like any more details or assistance with your travel plans?

Sent by you:​

is there another route from Cologne to Chur that has a town close to the Swiss border to stay in overnight?

Sent by Copilot:​

Yes, you can consider stopping in Freiburg im Breisgau for an overnight stay. Here’s a suggested route:

1. Cologne to Freiburg im Breisgau: Take a direct train from Cologne to Freiburg im Breisgau. This journey takes around 3 hours and offers beautiful views of the German countryside.
2. Overnight in Freiburg im Breisgau: Freiburg is a charming city in the Black Forest region, known for its medieval architecture, vibrant cultural scene, and scenic surroundings.
3. Freiburg im Breisgau to Chur: The next day, continue your journey from Freiburg to Chur. This part of the trip takes around 3 hours and offers stunning views of the Swiss landscape.

So, the route is: Cologne → Freiburg im Breisgau (overnight) → Chur.

Freiburg im Breisgau is a delightful city with plenty to see and do, making it a perfect stopover on your journey.

Would you like more details on booking tickets or things to do in Freiburg im Breisgau?

Sent by you:​

is there a route entering Switxerland to the east of Basel?

Sent by Copilot:​

Yes, you can enter Switzerland to the east of Basel by traveling through Germany. Here’s a suggested route:

1. Cologne to Freiburg im Breisgau: Take a direct train from Cologne to Freiburg im Breisgau. This journey takes around 3 hours and offers beautiful views of the German countryside.
2. Overnight in Freiburg im Breisgau: Freiburg is a charming city in the Black Forest region, known for its medieval architecture, vibrant cultural scene, and scenic surroundings.
3. Freiburg im Breisgau to Zurich: From Freiburg, take a train to Zurich. This part of the trip takes around 2 hours and offers stunning views of the Swiss landscape.
4. Zurich to Chur: Finally, travel from Zurich to Chur, which takes approximately 1 hour and 30 minutes.

So, the route is: Cologne → Freiburg im Breisgau (overnight) → Zurich → Chur.

This route allows you to enjoy the scenic beauty of both Germany and Switzerland, entering Switzerland to the east of Basel.

Would you like more details on booking tickets or things to do in Freiburg im Breisgau?

Sent by you:​

Does Freiburg im Breisgau to Zurich go through Basel?

Sent by Copilot:​

Yes, the train route from Freiburg im Breisgau to Zurich typically goes through Basel. Here’s a brief overview:

• Freiburg im Breisgau to Basel: This leg of the journey takes about 45 minutes.
• Basel to Zurich: From Basel, the train to Zurich takes around 1 hour.

So, the route is: Freiburg im Breisgau → Basel → Zurich.

Would you like more details on this route or any other assistance with your travel plans?

Sent by you:​

is there a route between Brussels and Chur that is to the east of Basel?

Sent by Copilot:​

Yes, you can take a route from Brussels to Chur that enters Switzerland to the east of Basel. Here’s a suggested route:

1. Brussels to Frankfurt: Take a high-speed ICE train from Brussels to Frankfurt. This journey takes around 3 hours and offers comfortable travel through Germany.
2. Frankfurt to Zurich: From Frankfurt, take another ICE train to Zurich. This leg of the journey takes about 4 hours and provides scenic views of the German and Swiss countryside.
3. Zurich to Chur: Finally, take a regional train from Zurich to Chur. This part of the trip takes approximately 1 hour and 30 minutes and offers stunning views of the Swiss landscape.

So, the route is: Brussels → Frankfurt → Zurich → Chur.

This route allows you to enter Switzerland to the east of Basel, providing a different scenic experience.

Would you like more details on booking tickets or things to do in any of these cities?

Sent by you:​

is there a route that doesn't go through Basel between Brussels and Chur?

Sent by Copilot:​

Yes, there is an alternative route from Brussels to Chur that avoids Basel. Here’s a suggested route:

1. Brussels to Frankfurt: Take a high-speed ICE train from Brussels to Frankfurt. This journey takes around 3 hours.
2. Frankfurt to Zurich: From Frankfurt, take another ICE train to Zurich. This leg of the journey takes about 4 hours.
3. Zurich to Chur: Finally, take a regional train from Zurich to Chur. This part of the trip takes approximately 1 hour and 30 minutes.

So, the route is: Brussels → Frankfurt → Zurich → Chur.

This route allows you to enter Switzerland to the east of Basel, providing a different scenic experience.

Would you like more details on booking tickets or things to do in any of these cities?

Sent by you:​

Didn't you tell me that Frankfurt to Zurich goes through Basel?

Sent by Copilot:​

You’re right, I did mention that the typical route from Frankfurt to Zurich goes through Basel. I apologize for the confusion.

To avoid Basel, you can consider this alternative route:

1. Brussels to Munich: Take a high-speed ICE train from Brussels to Munich. This journey takes around 6 hours.
2. Munich to Zurich: From Munich, take another train to Zurich. This leg of the journey takes about 4 hours.
3. Zurich to Chur: Finally, take a regional train from Zurich to Chur, which takes approximately 1 hour and 30 minutes.

So, the route is: Brussels → Munich → Zurich → Chur.

This route avoids Basel and offers a scenic journey through Germany and Switzerland.

Would you like more details on booking tickets or things to do in any of these cities?

Sent by you:​

Munich to Chur sounds interesting can you give me the route details?

Sent by Copilot:​

Certainly! Here are the details for the train journey from Munich to Chur:

1. Munich to Lindau: Start by taking a train from Munich Hauptbahnhof (Hbf) to Lindau. This leg of the journey takes about 2 hours and 30 minutes.
2. Lindau to St. Margrethen: From Lindau, take a train to St. Margrethen in Switzerland. This part of the trip takes around 1 hour.
3. St. Margrethen to Chur: Finally, take a train from St. Margrethen to Chur. This leg takes about 1 hour and 10 minutes.

So, the route is: Munich → Lindau → St. Margrethen → Chur. The total journey time is approximately 4 hours and 40 minutes12.

This route offers beautiful views of the Bavarian countryside, Lake Constance, and the Swiss Alps. It’s a scenic and enjoyable way to travel from Munich to Chur.

Would you like more details on booking tickets or things to do in any of these stops?

Sent by you:​

do you have times for those trains for Saturday 20 September?

Sent by Copilot:​

Here are some train options for your journey from Munich to Chur on Saturday, 20 September:

1. Departure: 09:54, Arrival: 13:48 - Duration: 3 hours 54 minutes, 1 change1.
2. Departure: 10:20, Arrival: 14:48 - Duration: 4 hours 28 minutes, 3 changes1.
3. Departure: 10:51, Arrival: 15:26 - Duration: 4 hours 35 minutes, 4 changes1.
4. Departure: 11:54, Arrival: 15:48 - Duration: 3 hours 54 minutes, 1 change1.
5. Departure: 12:20, Arrival: 16:48 - Duration: 4 hours 28 minutes, 3 changes1.
6. Departure: 12:52, Arrival: 17:22 - Duration: 4 hours 30 minutes, 4 changes1.
7. Departure: 13:54, Arrival: 17:48 - Duration: 3 hours 54 minutes, 1 change1.
8. Departure: 14:20, Arrival: 18:48 - Duration: 4 hours 28 minutes, 2 changes1.

These times are approximate and can vary, so it’s always a good idea to check closer to your travel date for the most accurate schedule.

Would you like more details on booking tickets or any other assistance with your travel plans?

Sent by you:​

what are the times from Offenburg to Tirano via Chur?

Sent by Copilot:​

Here are some train options for your journey from Offenburg to Tirano via Chur on Saturday, 20 September:

Offenburg to Chur:​

1. Departure: 06:30, Arrival: 10:19 - Duration: 3 hours 49 minutes, 1 change1.
2. Departure: 07:30, Arrival: 11:19 - Duration: 3 hours 49 minutes, 1 change1.
3. Departure: 08:30, Arrival: 12:19 - Duration: 3 hours 49 minutes, 1 change1.
4. Departure: 09:30, Arrival: 13:19 - Duration: 3 hours 49 minutes, 1 change1.

Chur to Tirano:​

1. Departure: 08:32, Arrival: 12:04 - Duration: 3 hours 32 minutes, direct2.
2. Departure: 09:32, Arrival: 13:04 - Duration: 3 hours 32 minutes, direct2.
3. Departure: 10:32, Arrival: 14:04 - Duration: 3 hours 32 minutes, direct2.
4. Departure: 11:32, Arrival: 15:04 - Duration: 3 hours 32 minutes, direct2.

Combining these options, you can plan your journey with a comfortable connection in Chur. For example:

• Offenburg Departure: 06:30, Chur Arrival: 10:19
• Chur Departure: 11:32, Tirano Arrival: 15:04

This gives you some time in Chur to explore or relax before continuing your journey to Tirano.

Sent by you:​

how about leaving Offenburg an hour or two later?

Sent by Copilot:​

Sure! Here are some later options for your journey from Offenburg to Tirano via Chur on Saturday, 20 September:

Offenburg to Chur:​

1. Departure: 08:30, Arrival: 12:19 - Duration: 3 hours 49 minutes, 1 change.
2. Departure: 09:30, Arrival: 13:19 - Duration: 3 hours 49 minutes, 1 change.
3. Departure: 10:30, Arrival: 14:19 - Duration: 3 hours 49 minutes, 1 change.

Chur to Tirano:​

1. Departure: 13:32, Arrival: 17:04 - Duration: 3 hours 32 minutes, direct.
2. Departure: 14:32, Arrival: 18:04 - Duration: 3 hours 32 minutes, direct.
3. Departure: 15:32, Arrival: 19:04 - Duration: 3 hours 32 minutes, direct.

Combining these options, you can plan your journey with a comfortable connection in Chur. For example:

• Offenburg Departure: 08:30, Chur Arrival: 12:19
• Chur Departure: 14:32, Tirano Arrival: 18:04

This gives you some time in Chur to explore or relax before continuing your journey to Tirano.

Would you like more details on booking tickets or things to do in Chur or Tirano?

Sent by you:​

Can you put the following in a spreadsheet format :

Departure: 08:30, Arrival: 12:19 - Duration: 3 hours 49 minutes, 1 change.
Departure: 09:30, Arrival: 13:19 - Duration: 3 hours 49 minutes, 1 change.
Departure: 10:30, Arrival: 14:19 - Duration: 3 hours 49 minutes, 1 change.
Chur to Tirano:
Departure: 13:32, Arrival: 17:04 - Duration: 3 hours 32 minutes, direct.
Departure: 14:32, Arrival: 18:04 - Duration: 3 hours 32 minutes, direct.
Departure: 15:32, Arrival: 19:04 - Duration: 3 hours 32 minutes, direct.

Sent by Copilot:​

Here’s the information in a spreadsheet format:

Table

Route	Departure	Arrival	Duration	Changes
Offenburg to Chur	08:30	12:19	3 hours 49 minutes	1
Offenburg to Chur	09:30	13:19	3 hours 49 minutes	1
Offenburg to Chur	10:30	14:19	3 hours 49 minutes	1
Chur to Tirano	13:32	17:04	3 hours 32 minutes	Direct
Chur to Tirano	14:32	18:04	3 hours 32 minutes	Direct
Chur to Tirano	15:32	19:04	3 hours 32 minutes	Direct

Would you like any more details or assistance with your travel plans?

Sent by you:​

And please give me times from London to Offenburg to arrive around 1800hrs on a Friday

Sent by Copilot:​

Here are some train options for your journey from London to Offenburg on a Friday, aiming to arrive around 18:00:

1. Departure: 08:01, Arrival: 17:38 - Duration: 8 hours 37 minutes, 1 change (Eurostar to Paris Nord, then TGV to Offenburg)1.
2. **Departure: 09:01, Arrival: 18

1

thetrainline.com

Sent by you:​

in spreadsheet form please

Sent by Copilot:​

Here’s the information in a spreadsheet format:

Table

Route	Departure	Arrival	Duration	Changes
London to Offenburg	08:01	17:38	8 hours 37 minutes	1
London to Offenburg	09:01	18:38	8 hours 37 minutes	1

Would you like any more details or assistance with your travel plans?

Sent by you:​

where is the change/

Sent by Copilot:​

Here’s the updated information in a spreadsheet format, including the change details:

Table

Route	Departure	Arrival	Duration	Changes
London to Offenburg	08:01	17:38	8 hours 37 minutes	1 (Paris Nord to Paris Est)
London to Offenburg	09:01	18:38	8 hours 37 minutes	1 (Paris Nord to Paris Est)

The change occurs in Paris, where you will transfer from Paris Gare du Nord to Paris Gare de l’Est.

Would you like any more details or assistance with your travel plans?

Sent by you:​

is there a route via Brussels?

Sent by Copilot:​

Yes, there is a route from London to Offenburg via Brussels. Here are some options for your journey on a Friday, aiming to arrive around 18:00:

Table

Route	Departure	Arrival	Duration	Changes
London to Offenburg	07:16	17:38	9 hours 22 minutes	2 (Brussels Midi, Frankfurt Hbf)
London to Offenburg	08:16	18:38	9 hours 22 minutes	2 (Brussels Midi, Frankfurt Hbf)

This route involves changing trains at Brussels Midi and Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof.

Would you like more details on booking tickets or any other assistance with your travel plans?

Sent by you:​

Can you tell me if there are interrail pass seat reservations available on the 0816 departure route?

Sent by Copilot:​

To check for Interrail pass seat reservations on the 08:16 departure route from London to Offenburg via Brussels and Frankfurt, you can use the following steps:

1. Visit the Interrail Reservations Portal: Go to the Interrail Reservations Portal1.
2. Enter Travel Details: Input your departure and arrival cities (London to Offenburg), the departure date (20 September), and the departure time (08:16).
3. Add Rail Pass: Select the option to add your Interrail pass to the booking.
4. Check Availability: The system will show you available trains and seat reservations for your selected route.

Alternatively, you can also check seat reservations directly on the Rail Europe website2 by following similar steps.

Would you like more assistance with this process or any other travel-related queries?

Sent by you:​

can you provide this dialogue in a format or link so that I can share it online?

Sent by Copilot:​

I can’t directly create a shareable link for this conversation, but you can easily copy and paste the text into a document or an online platform to share it. Here’s a quick guide on how to do it:

1. Select the Text: Click and drag your mouse over the text to highlight it.
2. Copy the Text: Right-click and select “Copy” or use the keyboard shortcut Ctrl+C (Windows) or Cmd+C (Mac).
3. Paste the Text: Right-click where you want to paste the text and select “Paste” or use the keyboard shortcut Ctrl+V (Windows) or Cmd+V (Mac).

If you need any help with formatting or have any other questions, feel free to ask!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2024 ==


Moderators - please feel free to delete the above if it's too long.

 

[The exile]

No doubt I’m old fashioned, but a) where’s the pleasure in letting a computer do the planning for you (other than giggling at its incompetence) and b) what’s the benefit of a spreadsheet over scribbling plans on paper?

 

[DanielB]

No doubt I’m old fashioned, but a) where’s the pleasure in letting a computer do the planning for you

Indeed! Like doing the planning myself much more, usually taking more into account than just the trains (such as where I'd prefer to eat at lunchtime).
I tend to using a map for locating potential scenic routes, combined with inspiration from the many rail YouTubers there are nowadays. And then it's a matter of creating some blocks with things to do and eventually find combinations of those to fill the day.

For planning I usually utilise the local operators journey planner, combined with the one from DB.

 

[nwales58]

So copilot is not bad but it does not propose direct Paris-Colmar TGV which runs every few hours. It thinks Colmar needs doubling back from Basel, not even Mulhouse. Neither does propose the twice-daily direct Lille-Strasbourg TGVs despite knowing it's dealing with Colmar.

And you are doing all the nudging (or testing) to explore routes it has not suggested as alternatives, so your geographic knowledge is needed as well as the AI.

Routes to Colmar and the Frankfurt-Zurich confusion supports the view it works on associations, rather than a strong concept of geography and routes.

Despite 'scenic', 'east of Basel' and Offenburg in your requests it does not suggest the (to us obvious) highly scenic Schwarzwaldbahn Offenburg-Singen then Schaffausen-Zürich.

I wonder, will it know about Paris Nord/Est in a new session if anyone starts asking? Probably not.

I may have missed something scanning, it is awfully wordy.

 

[Alfonso]

Journey planners are very good for sorting the logical stuff, assuming people want to travel cheaply, or quickly, or with few changes, but they are very unlikely to cater for our often niche wants, happy to go out of our way for scenery, interesting trains etc. Personally a spreadsheet comes very late in the day after lots more very visual doodling of potential routes, options, bargains, trains with bar cars etc. Sorry this doesn't hugely help the OP!

 

[DanielB]

Journey planners are very good for sorting the logical stuff, assuming people want to travel cheaply, or quickly, or with few changes, but they are very unlikely to cater for our often niche wants, happy to go out of our way for scenery, interesting trains etc.

They do perfectly fine however. Especially DB has good options to tweak the outcome and what I'd usually do as well is just planning my trip in sections.
Scenic or interesting routes I'd plan separately, but at other sections the trains matter less and I just choose the fastest. Planners are also great to find where to change and then planning the interesting section seperately utilising that info.

 

[Ian99]

I wonder, will it know about Paris Nord/Est in a new session if anyone starts asking?

It's not meant to allow me to change the way it presents info to anyone else but it does remember my preferences - as a test, I've just asked it to plan a journey Lille to Lyon via Paris and it specifies the relevant Parisian stations.

It seems however to have forgotten that I asked it to stop asking me questions unless clarification was needed. So it's still asks things like, "Are you planning to buy an Interrail Pass?"

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2024 ==

Also, out of interest, for example, I've just read above about "Schwarzwaldbahn Offenburg-Singen then Schaffausen-Zürich" - I don't know anything about that. How would others research what that means?

 

[The exile]

It's not meant to allow me to change the way it presents info to anyone else but it does remember my preferences - as a test, I've just asked it to plan a journey Lille to Lyon via Paris and it specifies the relevant Parisian stations.

It seems however to have forgotten that I asked it to stop asking me questions unless clarification was needed. So it's still asks things like, "Are you planning to buy an Interrail Pass?"

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2024 ==

Out of interest, for example, I've just read above about "Schwarzwaldbahn Offenburg-Singen then Schaffausen-Zürich" - I don't know anything about that. How would others research what that means?

Well a combination of Wikipedia, a map and a good old fashioned timetable would be a start.

 

[nwales58]

as a test, I've just asked it to plan a journey Lille to Lyon via Paris and it specifies the relevant Parisian stations.

Umm. Gare de l'Est for Lyon maybe?

... "Schwarzwaldbahn Offenburg-Singen then Schaffausen-Zürich" - I don't know anything about that. How would others research what that means?

OK, so it's not generally known. Waiting for someone to make a Youtube video 'Stunning SECRET journeys of the Black Forest'. Höllentalbahn, Freiburg im Breisgau-Donaueschingen is pretty good too but the double hairpin climbs up to Triberg on the Schwarzwaldstrecke are more dramatic.

Your AI chat was mostly about scenic routes and you injected Offenburg. Offenburg-Chur via Konstanz only takes an hour longer than via Basel and is much more scenic through the Black Forest so the sum of the intelligence in the world should have offered it as an option. From Konstanz you can go via Romanshorn so you see a lot of the Bodensee or via Zürich and the Zürichsee, they take about the same time so intelligence should offer you a choice of both as there is no 'best' without exploring your preferences and knowing the weather on the day.

My general point is: how do you know the AI is right without using the real intelligence built up in humans?