Train too long for platform!

[SCDR_WMR]

Ok, thanks. We can but wonder what the reasoning behind that decision was, and as the Control mentioned was presumably Network Rail, what the TOC Control's involvement was.

Sorry to not make it clear, Control in my posts will be LNR control at rugby ROC. They will be liaising in real time with NR at Rugby ROC as it's a shared environment.

 

[rmHawk765]

I'm not a driver but surely if the driver is aware the formation is different than booked, some sort of policy would apply to:

• inform the signaller, just to be sure;
• approach the entrance signal slowly if the platform lengths make this a possibility?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I'm not a driver but surely if the driver is aware the formation is different than booked, some sort of policy would apply to:

• inform the signaller, just to be sure;
• approach the entrance signal slowly if the platform lengths make this a possibility?

If the formation changed, or was an VSTP maybe. As far as the driver and SC were aware, it was a booked 10 car 730 set - almost identical in length to a 12 car 350 set.

They wouldn't normally be contacting the signaller to advise/confirm they have a long train which doesn't fit in all platforms. The formation was inputted incorrectly by LNR I believe.

Driver will face questions on why they took the signal to a platform it wouldn't fit on, as will whoever inputted the formation onto the system as this wasn't a simple case of signaller error.

Haven't heard anything about the speed through the approach, but at 40/45 I think, it's not a high speed approach and you can easily see the platform number in the theatre box from a decent enough distance to stop the train. I often have my head out of the middle can window to see which platform I'm coming into.

 

[rmHawk765]

Haven't heard anything about the speed through the approach, but at 40/45 I think, it's not a high speed approach and you can easily see the platform number in the theatre box from a decent enough distance to stop the train. I often have my head out of the middle can window to see which platform I'm coming into.

Yeah knowing the layout of the signals here I was thinking that there's no way the driver wasn't able to see it in time.

They wouldn't normally be contacting the signaller to advise/confirm they have a long train which doesn't fit in all platforms. The formation was inputted incorrectly by LNR I believe.

Not necessarily for that, just to inform that the formation is different than booked, but obviously the root cause is LNR's mistake.

 

[Falcon1200]

Sorry to not make it clear, Control in my posts will be LNR control at rugby ROC. They will be liaising in real time with NR at Rugby ROC as it's a shared environment.

Thanks!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Yeah knowing the layout of the signals here I was thinking that there's no way the driver wasn't able to see it in time.

Not necessarily for that, just to inform that the formation is different than booked, but obviously the root cause is LNR's mistake.

But it was meant to be a 730 set - NR had incorrect (or outdated) information. The train crew believed it was as booked.

 

[WAB]

Everyone in operational roles should already be well aware of the risk of self-detraining, and that platforms being in sight dramatically reduces the time you have to deal with the incident before passengers self-egress. I'd posit that being alongside a platform at a terminus would mean you'd be lucky to have ten minutes to act before passengers start detraining. You'd never manage to arrange a shunt at Euston within 10 minutes of the wheels stopping, so a dynamic risk assessment should have been carried out and a selection of doors which were platformed released using the levers. There is no delay implication - passengers carrying out an uncontrolled evac would create far more delay than detraining before the shunt. There is a minimal safety implication - stepping distances may not be within tolerances if the stopping position is unusual but this can be mitigated by deploying station staff to assist passengers at the doors.

Hopefully, the incident learning review will tease all of the factors out and make Control more confident to make better decisions in the future. The decision-making in this instance sounds to be as expected from a relatively-new Control team and setup.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2025 ==

But it was meant to be a 730 set - NR had incorrect (or outdated) information. The train crew believed it was as booked.

The driver still shouldn't have taken the route, although I appreciate that it's not easy to do that mental check on the approach to a station with many platforms of different lengths. If it is true that NR didn't have the correct formation information, it's not on the signaller at all.

 

[43066]

Everyone in operational roles should already be well aware of the risk of self-detraining, and that platforms being in sight dramatically reduces the time you have to deal with the incident before passengers self-egress. I'd posit that being alongside a platform at a terminus would mean you'd be lucky to have ten minutes to act before passengers start detraining. You'd never manage to arrange a shunt at Euston within 10 minutes of the wheels stopping, so a dynamic risk assessment should have been carried out and a selection of doors which were platformed released using the levers. There is no delay implication - passengers carrying out an uncontrolled evac would create far more delay than detraining before the shunt. There is a minimal safety implication - stepping distances may not be within tolerances if the stopping position is unusual but this can be mitigated by deploying station staff to assist passengers at the doors.

Hopefully, the incident learning review will tease all of the factors out and make Control more confident to make better decisions in the future. The decision-making in this instance sounds to be as expected from a relatively-new Control team and setup.

Agreed. I would *hope* that train crew/platform staff in such a situation would feel empowered to take the decision to start egressing platformed doors, without the need to involve control. Ultimately this could always be defended on safety grounds.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

The driver still shouldn't have taken the route, although I appreciate that it's not easy to do that mental check on the approach to a station with many platforms of different lengths. If it is true that NR didn't have the correct formation information, it's not on the signaller at all.

Oh absolutely, all LNR drivers that sign Euston should always be aware of train length and which platforms are shorter due to 12 car working. Signaller went off the information they had, no blame there at all.

 

[Deepgreen]

It has been said up-thread that station/platform staff may not have the technical knowledge that train crews have, but surely it is absolutely fundamental knowledge for anyone working with/around trains that a train will not move with the doors open (especially in this sort of situation)?! From the description of this incident it seems as if some very basic things need to be addressed!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2025 ==

Ok I bow to your knowledge. The speed from 0m43c is 25mph, and 40mph up to that point. I assumed if the route is set straight in with no approach control then by the time the driver saw the 9 or 10 in the route indicator they wouldn’t be able to stop at the signal.

I also don’t know why they couldn‘t detrain through the front unit to minimise the inconvenience.

oh and I’ve seen a colleague put an HST in 14 at Padd.

Totalling how many vehicles?

 

[Nippy]

It has been said up-thread that station/platform staff may not have the technical knowledge that train crews have, but surely it is absolutely fundamental knowledge for anyone working with/around trains that a train will not move with the doors open (especially in this sort of situation)?! From the description of this incident it seems as if some very basic things need to be addressed!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2025 ==


Totalling how many vehicles?

It was a 2+8. Only the first 5 coaches were platformed. It was 30 years ago mind.

 

[Deepgreen]

It was a 2+8. Only the first 5 coaches were platformed. It was 30 years ago mind.

Ah - pre-SPADs then?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2025 ==

Oh absolutely, all LNR drivers that sign Euston should always be aware of train length and which platforms are shorter due to 12 car working. Signaller went off the information they had, no blame there at all.

Indeed - and my ignorance of the technical elements prompts me to ask this question - can axle-counters not inform signallers of trains' lengths automatically (if set up to do so)? It would seem a useful function.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Ah - pre-SPADs then?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2025 ==


Indeed - and my ignorance of the technical elements prompts me to ask this question - can axle-counters not inform signallers of trains' lengths automatically (if set up to do so)? It would seem a useful function.

I wouldn't know that unfortunately, can see why you'd like to think they could even if not set up to do so. Devils advocate would say, however, that a 10 car set would count less wheels than a 12 despite being same length

 

[GRONK08]

Can I just thank everyone who has contributed to this discussion. It has certainly given me a much better understanding of what went on and it would seem many of you share my personal view that it would have been easier, quicker and of benefit to all parties, if they had detrained us via the carriages that were safely in the platform. It wasn't excessively busy (no standing that I could see and some seats still available) so I'm sure that everyone would have been off the train within a few minutes well before they had been given the go-ahead to go out and return to a more suitable platform. Thanks again

 

[Horizon22]

Sorry to not make it clear, Control in my posts will be LNR control at rugby ROC. They will be liaising in real time with NR at Rugby ROC as it's a shared environment.

Yes but the SC would talk with the TOC Controller. The NR Controller might have told the TOC Controller "no". And that might be on advice from the signaller or NR Ops Manager.

 

[Deepgreen]

I wouldn't know that unfortunately, can see why you'd like to think they could even if not set up to do so. Devils advocate would say, however, that a 10 car set would count less wheels than a 12 despite being same length

I would assume that the stock type would be known, so it would simply be a matter of determining how many cars of that stock were running.